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Who wants to help me choose a diamond?

P: 11/27/2006 5:12:12 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	I figured instead of me searching through all the vendors, and constanly picking the wrong thing, I'd let some experts who have some free time on their hands help me out. Haha. Anyhow, here's the specs of what I'm looking for: GIA or AGS cert 2.25 + ct D or E no lower than SI2 (want it to be eye clean) preferbly excellent cut / proportions budget: < $25k Here's one I found on my own: (and yes I know its a bit smaller than I listeed abopve, but I'm quasi-intrigued by the AGS Ideal cut: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-69213.htm# Thanks!
Posted: 11/27/2006 5:12:12 PM

There are 88 replies to this message. There are 30 replies on this page.

P: 11/27/2006 5:26:52 PM
kenny Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,818 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	To each his own but why go so high on color and low on clarity? What good is a D if there are big black gobs of carbon in your face?
Posted: 11/27/2006 5:26:52 PM

P: 11/27/2006 5:33:11 PM
kenny Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,818 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-150435.htm http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=860049 http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-70266.htm http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=861212 http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-150433.htm
Posted: 11/27/2006 5:33:11 PM

P: 11/27/2006 5:41:38 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 5:26:52 PM Author: kenny To each his own but why go so high on color and low on clarity? What good is a D if there are big black gobs of carbon in your face? Ha... The budget has to give somewhere.... I'm trying to find an SI2 that is eye clean... From Whiteflash's site: Is it Eye-Clean? The most important question for many shoppers, especially on the internet, will be whether or not the diamond being considered is eye-clean. This is a useful term, but there is no official definition. Distance, lighting and human vision can all be different, so you should have clear expectations when asking this question. Our own definition of eye-clean: No inclusions visible face-up at a distance of 8-10 inches in natural lighting to a person with 20/20 vision. 10 inches is the distance of most distinct vision as defined by the American Gem Society, so this is a logical standard and it gives us a working baseline for our customers. If a strong lab like AGS or AGS did the grading, it is likely that anything VS2 and above will be completely eye-clean. But every SI1 and SI2 diamond is different. Some have inclusions visible to some people and many others dont. If eye-clean is important to you a clear definition between buyer and seller is critical (click for more information on Eye-Clean).
Posted: 11/27/2006 5:41:38 PM

P: 11/27/2006 5:46:49 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 5:33:11 PM Author: kenny http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-150435.htm http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=53985 http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=860049 http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-70266.htm http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=861212 http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-150433.htm Has to be D or E I'm told... Gotta do what the boss says here.
Posted: 11/27/2006 5:46:49 PM

P: 11/27/2006 5:50:24 PM
kenny Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,818 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	You want a 2.25 carat, D or E, eye-clean, excellent cut diamond for $25K? I think you need to have a talk with the boss. Have you both gone out to see D E F G H I loose diamonds in person? Is her D E thing the result of personal observation? Many people cannot even detect any color down to G or so. Have a jeweler test her. She may be embarassed but end up with a better compromise of a diamond. Does she know excellent cut makes any color face up whiter? Plus color is even harder to discern after the stone is set. Again if the decision to stay with D and E are after all this is taken into consideration then so be it. I'm a high color guy too, and high clarity and cut too.
Posted: 11/27/2006 5:50:24 PM

P: 11/27/2006 5:58:35 PM
kenny Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,818 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=868581
Posted: 11/27/2006 5:58:35 PM

P: 11/27/2006 6:10:08 PM
shinythings Cut Rock Total Posts: 215 Last Post: 1/31/2008 Member Since: 11/6/2005	I know that some people like the idea of a D or E color since it is near "perfect". In most cases, it seems the visual difference between a D and an F is only that-an idea. The average person can't see a difference, so you may want to ask if she'll open up her criteria and compromise on color a bit so you can potentially find a better cut or clarity diamond.
Posted: 11/27/2006 6:10:08 PM

P: 11/27/2006 6:15:11 PM
diamondseeker2006 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 17,609 Last Post: 11/18/2009 Member Since: 1/11/2006	Yeah, I'm sorry but I can't see paying a premium for a D or E and then getting an SI2. It just doesn't make sense. An SI1 maybe, and VS2 would be better. Cut is THE most important factor in the beauty of the stone, and while color is important, I sure wouldn't be looking at D or E in a 2 ct. stone if I had a limit of $25,000. G or H VS2 would be more like it. ~~~ When in doubt...don't.~~~
Posted: 11/27/2006 6:15:11 PM

P: 11/27/2006 6:23:28 PM
kenny Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,818 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	I just thought of something. Rounds are the most expensive per carat because so much of the rough diamond has to be ground away. Have you considered princess, emerald, radiant, or asschers? Asschers do not look as big for the weight because they are deep and fat, but you may just fall in love with them. ( I did ) And check out the AGS 0 Princess cut too. AGS is a top lab that has saved us time by comming up with high cut standards for the princess cut.
Posted: 11/27/2006 6:23:28 PM

P: 11/27/2006 6:45:42 PM
starryeyed Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,587 Last Post: 10/5/2009 Member Since: 11/6/2006	That 2.11 carat D SI1 that Kenny posted looks like it might be your diamond. Here's the link again: 2.11 carat, D SI1, Ideal, EX/EX, HCA 1.5 This diamond scores a 1.5 on the Holloway Cut Advisor, so it's definitely a great performer. The magnified image looks pretty clean - very clean at 7x, some minor crystals at 14x. Looks like you picked a good one Kenny! The PS price is $24,710, so it meets the budget requirement. The cut probably makes the stone so firey that you won't see any of the inclusions.
Posted: 11/27/2006 6:45:42 PM

P: 11/27/2006 7:42:21 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 6:10:08 PM Author: shinythings I know that some people like the idea of a D or E color since it is near 'perfect'. In most cases, it seems the visual difference between a D and an F is only that-an idea. The average person can't see a difference, so you may want to ask if she'll open up her criteria and compromise on color a bit so you can potentially find a better cut or clarity diamond. I can really see a differnece between a G and a D/E... Maybe its just that they are side by side that it is so noticeable too me... My other issue, is that her sister has an incredible stone, and there's some seriosu sibling rivalry going on there... i dont think a G would hold up welll next to sis' 2.7 E, VVS2...
Posted: 11/27/2006 7:42:21 PM

P: 11/27/2006 7:43:24 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 6:23:28 PM Author: kenny I just thought of something. Rounds are the most expensive per carat because so much of the rough diamond has to be ground away. Have you considered princess, emerald, radiant, or asschers? Asschers do not look as big for the weight because they are deep and fat, but you may just fall in love with them. ( I did ) And check out the AGS 0 Princess cut too. AGS is a top lab that has saved us time by comming up with high cut standards for the princess cut. I'd love to get a differnet cut... Round only... Sorry should have added that to the list... she has very specific tastes.
Posted: 11/27/2006 7:43:24 PM

P: 11/27/2006 7:44:39 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 6:45:42 PM Author: starryeyed That 2.11 carat D SI1 that Kenny posted looks like it might be your diamond. Here's the link again: 2.11 carat, D SI1, Ideal, EX/EX, HCA 1.5 This diamond scores a 1.5 on the Holloway Cut Advisor, so it's definitely a great performer. The magnified image looks pretty clean - very clean at 7x, some minor crystals at 14x. Looks like you picked a good one Kenny! The PS price is $24,710, so it meets the budget requirement. The cut probably makes the stone so firey that you won't see any of the inclusions. That looks great... I'll add it to the list... I want to get a list of 4-5 possibilites together...
Posted: 11/27/2006 7:44:39 PM

P: 11/27/2006 7:52:05 PM
kenny Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,818 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	I don't understand. If it is a sibling rivalry how will as SI2 stand up to a VVS2? Wouldn't a balance of specs be the best?
Posted: 11/27/2006 7:52:05 PM

P: 11/27/2006 7:54:57 PM
Kaleigh Ideal Rock Total Posts: 25,906 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 11/18/2004	How about going for an F VS2?? ____________________________ Piece of cake and a candle. ng gift
Posted: 11/27/2006 7:54:57 PM

P: 11/27/2006 8:20:06 PM
diamondseeker2006 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 17,609 Last Post: 11/18/2009 Member Since: 1/11/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 7:54:57 PM Author: Kaleigh How about going for an F VS2?? My thoughts exactly. F is still in the colorless range and would allow you to go up in clarity a bit. Here's one at $28,000: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/359/ ~~~ When in doubt...don't.~~~
Posted: 11/27/2006 8:20:06 PM

P: 11/27/2006 8:32:10 PM
Regular Guy Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,316 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2004	Though sympathetic to the argument for F and eye clean...the options I'm looking at don't improve by lowering the scale. I've got one or two for you to check out: This one, an E SI 1. 2.37 carats from Abazias, and several others, including Union Diamond, who has the cert, an older one from AGS, for you to see. At just over $24 at Abazias, you're also under budget. Ask them if it's eye clean, though. If it is, even if outside current AGS0, it's a cool HCA score and provides you room, rather than any compromise. Alternately, this AGS0, with 0 for light performance, from BN, is a D SI 1 at 2.28, but will put you just over the $25 mark, at $25,827. While it receives a 1 for finish, it's the least worrisome penalty, and...from the point of view that "what you're priced at is what you get," this might instead be the better value between these two, but hard to say. PS...just check out the big db, and screen for AGS to find these. I see these 2. Warm regards, and welcome to pricescope! Ira (Ruffles have Ridges) Z. ____________ If you're looking for diamond shopping tips...this (along with this update) might do the trick! however...caution: known to have been regarded as armed and dangerous
Posted: 11/27/2006 8:32:10 PM

P: 11/27/2006 8:44:46 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 7:52:05 PM Author: kenny I don't understand. If it is a sibling rivalry how will as SI2 stand up to a VVS2? Wouldn't a balance of specs be the best? Nothing I do is going to stand up to big sis' ring... the thing is way out of my price range... That being said, im sure her sister has no idea what her specs are... I spoke to the sister's husband to get the specs... I'm going with the 2-3 things that they will see side by side, while mounted... size, color, and no visible inclusions...
Posted: 11/27/2006 8:44:46 PM

P: 11/27/2006 8:56:42 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 8:32:10 PM Author: Regular Guy Though sympathetic to the argument for F and eye clean...the options I'm looking at don't improve by lowering the scale. I've got one or two for you to check out: This one, an E SI 1. 2.37 carats from Abazias, and several others, including Union Diamond, who has the cert, an older one from AGS, for you to see. At just over $24 at Abazias, you're also under budget. Ask them if it's eye clean, though. If it is, even if outside current AGS0, it's a cool HCA score and provides you room, rather than any compromise. Alternately, this AGS0, with 0 for light performance, from BN, is a D SI 1 at 2.28, but will put you just over the $25 mark, at $25,827. While it receives a 1 for finish, it's the least worrisome penalty, and...from the point of view that 'what you're priced at is what you get,' this might instead be the better value between these two, but hard to say. PS...just check out the big db, and screen for AGS to find these. I see these 2. Warm regards, and welcome to pricescope! These are both really nice... the BN one looks like it has a lot more inclusions in it than the other one.. youre suggestin i contact them both and ask if they are eye clean? it seems the consesis is towards AGS over GIA though with these stones, correct?
Posted: 11/27/2006 8:56:42 PM

P: 11/27/2006 9:12:17 PM
avlis Cut Rock Total Posts: 237 Last Post: 8/20/2008 Member Since: 10/22/2006	you should find out more about the sisters ring, since it is driving the specs on the ring you have to buy. i am sure it is certified, right? then you can get the %'s and angles from the cert if it is GIA/AGS. if you are lucky, it is just a big stone with good clarity/color that is really poorly cut, then you can swoop in with a really well cut stone that outshines the sisters stone even though it is smaller.
Posted: 11/27/2006 9:12:17 PM

P: 11/27/2006 9:13:53 PM
kenny Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,818 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	sna77 wrote: "I'm going with the 2-3 things that they will see side by side, while mounted... size, color, and no visible inclusions... " Of those color is by far the least detctable if you put a mounted E next to a mounted G. But the one thing you have not mentioned that will stand out side by side is cut. How good is the cut of sis's 2.7 E VVS2? If she didn't get it via PS chances are it pales in comparison to the good cuts here. A typically-cut D IF looks dead next to a well-cut J SI2. Your only hope to top her is with superb cut! Cut is the most important thing that determines the beauty a diamond's optical performance. Not clarity. Not color. Cut can make you a hero.
Posted: 11/27/2006 9:13:53 PM

P: 11/27/2006 9:15:21 PM
avlis Cut Rock Total Posts: 237 Last Post: 8/20/2008 Member Since: 10/22/2006	also, the best way to see color is face down against a white background. face up mounted in a ring, its going to be hard to see a few grades of color difference. {edit} also, do you know where the sisters diamond came from? that could help.
Posted: 11/27/2006 9:15:21 PM

P: 11/27/2006 9:22:30 PM
Ellen Ideal Rock Total Posts: 22,894 Last Post: 11/6/2009 Member Since: 1/13/2006	Here's a possibility... http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/loose_detail.php/session/874d6032ee8dde07e9f32ed7971fb1f4/id/9464561/sz/150/premium/premium ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "It is also important for the State to inculcate in its subjects an aversion to any 'conspiracy theory of history' for a search for 'conspiracies' means a search for motives and an attribution of responsibility for historical misdeeds." -Murray N. Rothbard, in The Anatomy of the State John Swinton [1829-1901] Chief Editorial Writer of the New York Times (Considered "the Dean of his Profession" by his peers), when asked to toast an 'Independent Press' in a gathering at the National Press Club, circa 1880 "There is no such thing in America as an independent press unless it is in the country towns. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dare express an honest opinion. If you express it you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid... for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for doing similar things.... The business of the New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and sell his country and race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same thing, his salary. You know this, and I know it and what foolery to be toasting an 'independent press.' We are tools, and the vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, all are the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
Posted: 11/27/2006 9:22:30 PM

P: 11/27/2006 10:16:38 PM
Regular Guy Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,316 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2004	Date: 11/27/2006 8:56:42 PM Author: sna77 These are both really nice... the BN one looks like it has a lot more inclusions in it than the other one.. youre suggestin i contact them both and ask if they are eye clean? it seems the consesis is towards AGS over GIA though with these stones, correct? I can't personally see too well the cert from Union/Abazias to make a judgement, and if I could, people here have indicated it's hard to really tell from the charting on a cert how included a diamond will look. Except, it's also said a lot of little lines is better, practically, than one or two more significant marks. Food for thought. I'm guessing people are not jumping up and down because these vendors aren't mentioned frequently here. It might be good for others to talk out loud about any reservations, if any, they have. I think that despite the cut rate pricing, the guys at Abazias are good, and Nile has a good rep for customer service, and 30 days for reviewing options. If both would send to an appraiser for review for purchase, that might be "ideal," though BN likely would not. Yes, ask about inclusions. If they a) understand that's important to you, and b) that you'd take it to an appraiser to confirm, they might tell you to save your time and money sending it back & forth, cause no one wants to do that...though both will have to get that opinion second hand, from their supplier. Still, this is par for the course. Good hunting. Ira (Ruffles have Ridges) Z. ____________ If you're looking for diamond shopping tips...this (along with this update) might do the trick! however...caution: known to have been regarded as armed and dangerous
Posted: 11/27/2006 10:16:38 PM

P: 11/27/2006 10:30:40 PM
Regular Guy Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,316 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2004	P.S. Idea 1b) and 1c)... For both those options, above, if you have a vendor of choice other than the listed vendors...you might see if they can bring in both of these, and help you review them, and choose the best, or... For either Abazias (more likely), or BN, see if they can get both, and compare, and indicate the favorite. The main idea is to see if you can get the vendor to help you select between these two, if this were possible...remembering that, right now, neither vendor has either in their possession. Ira (Ruffles have Ridges) Z. ____________ If you're looking for diamond shopping tips...this (along with this update) might do the trick! however...caution: known to have been regarded as armed and dangerous
Posted: 11/27/2006 10:30:40 PM

P: 11/27/2006 10:41:06 PM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 9:12:17 PM Author: avlis you should find out more about the sisters ring, since it is driving the specs on the ring you have to buy. i am sure it is certified, right? then you can get the %'s and angles from the cert if it is GIA/AGS. if you are lucky, it is just a big stone with good clarity/color that is really poorly cut, then you can swoop in with a really well cut stone that outshines the sisters stone even though it is smaller. yeah.. its GIA certified... the stone is about 2-3 years old (when they got engaged). i saw the cert but didnt et much of a look at it... i think it was upwards of $40k, though so im guessing its a good cut. her husband is VERY thorough, and did his homework i'm sure of... btw, its one of the nicest rings ive ever seen. its sparkle is incredible. i couldnt stop looking at it last time i was there. hahah but yes, it sounds as if Im going to need an excellent cut to compete
Posted: 11/27/2006 10:41:06 PM

P: 11/27/2006 11:43:35 PM
Siamese Kitty Ideal Rock Total Posts: 523 Last Post: 8/11/2009 Member Since: 2/4/2006	sna- I just wanted to chime in and say that I personally went with a D SI-1 stone (I definitely see color more than inclusions). Interestingly enough, anytime someone sees my stone they remark how white it is and ask me if it's a VVS or IF stone. (I don't know if maybe they assume it's a high clarity b/c it's colorless?) All this to say that people all have different priorities when it comes to the C's, and I'm just an example someone who would definitely put high color over great clarity. BUT, like the others have said, an amazing cut is what's really going to get that WOW. With your budget, I'm sure you're going to end up with something mind-blowingly gorgeous! Good luck and congrats! ETA: sna- ltl has a thread for her new Leon Mege over in SMTR forum with a 2+ carat colorless/SI-2 combo with sidestones, just in case you wanted a visual.
Posted: 11/27/2006 11:43:35 PM

P: 11/28/2006 9:13:22 AM
sna77 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,022 Last Post: 7/20/2009 Member Since: 11/2/2006	Date: 11/27/2006 8:32:10 PM Author: Regular Guy Though sympathetic to the argument for F and eye clean...the options I'm looking at don't improve by lowering the scale. I've got one or two for you to check out: This one, an E SI 1. 2.37 carats from Abazias, and several others, including Union Diamond, who has the cert, an older one from AGS, for you to see. At just over $24 at Abazias, you're also under budget. Ask them if it's eye clean, though. If it is, even if outside current AGS0, it's a cool HCA score and provides you room, rather than any compromise. Alternately, this AGS0, with 0 for light performance, from BN, is a D SI 1 at 2.28, but will put you just over the $25 mark, at $25,827. While it receives a 1 for finish, it's the least worrisome penalty, and...from the point of view that 'what you're priced at is what you get,' this might instead be the better value between these two, but hard to say. PS...just check out the big db, and screen for AGS to find these. I see these 2. Warm regards, and welcome to pricescope! That 2.37 is now down from Abazias, but the Union diamond cert for it has strong flourescence. Thats no good i hear in the D-F range with a 2ct+ stone, right? http://www.uniondiamond.com/diamonds/diamonds.php?item_id=AA191573&search_type_id=2&action_type_id=2&network_id=0cf05810a0f83094f6e9972ef21cdd34# How is it that some SI1s have what appears to be more inclusions than an SI2, etc? Is the grade also the result of the size of the inclusion etc?
Posted: 11/28/2006 9:13:22 AM

P: 11/28/2006 9:52:46 AM
Regular Guy Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,316 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2004	Date: 11/28/2006 9:13:22 AM Author: sna77 That 2.37 is now down from Abazias, but the Union diamond cert for it has strong flourescence. Thats no good i hear in the D-F range with a 2ct+ stone, right? http://www.uniondiamond.com/diamonds/diamonds.php?item_id=AA191573&search_type_id=2&action_type_id=2&network_id=0cf05810a0f83094f6e9972ef21cdd34# How is it that some SI1s have what appears to be more inclusions than an SI2, etc? Is the grade also the result of the size of the inclusion etc? Depending on your interest, you may want to start a new thread on the nature of inclusions in SI1, and also, the effect of florescence in high color diamonds. Also, possibly someone earlier reserved the diamond at Abazias, and then threw it back? I can put it in my shopping basket. Best to call the vendor on both re availability. Generally, as noted before, yes, lots of notations for inclusions, from what I read, tends to be good news in an SI 1 re being eye visible. But check me. Also, experts here seem to generally like florescence all day, but again, search past threads and whatnot. Unless florescence is independently a concern (it may glow in night clubs?), it's frequently considered a convenient way to get a discount, based on market misinformation. BTW, for version 1d), adding on from above, I do like your first choice, too. You could call WF, if you want to make them your vendor of choice, see if they can bring either or both in, and help you compare. Your only reservation then would be to figure out a way for them not to be a biased from a natural vs adopted child. P.S. Also consider bringing back the thumb. Regards, Ira (Ruffles have Ridges) Z. ____________ If you're looking for diamond shopping tips...this (along with this update) might do the trick! however...caution: known to have been regarded as armed and dangerous
Posted: 11/28/2006 9:52:46 AM

P: 11/28/2006 10:27:33 AM
Ellen Ideal Rock Total Posts: 22,894 Last Post: 11/6/2009 Member Since: 1/13/2006	Date: 11/28/2006 9:52:46 AM Author: Regular Guy P.S. Also consider bringing back the thumb. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "It is also important for the State to inculcate in its subjects an aversion to any 'conspiracy theory of history' for a search for 'conspiracies' means a search for motives and an attribution of responsibility for historical misdeeds." -Murray N. Rothbard, in The Anatomy of the State John Swinton [1829-1901] Chief Editorial Writer of the New York Times (Considered "the Dean of his Profession" by his peers), when asked to toast an 'Independent Press' in a gathering at the National Press Club, circa 1880 "There is no such thing in America as an independent press unless it is in the country towns. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dare express an honest opinion. If you express it you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid... for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for doing similar things.... The business of the New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and sell his country and race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same thing, his salary. You know this, and I know it and what foolery to be toasting an 'independent press.' We are tools, and the vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, all are the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
Posted: 11/28/2006 10:27:33 AM

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