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ť GIA Ex CUT - always good performers?

GIA Ex CUT - always good performers?

P: 11/3/2006 7:28:33 PM
shel Cut Rock Total Posts: 141 Last Post: 12/2/2008 Member Since: 8/28/2006	Along the lines of another post by EBree, who asked about GIA Ex/Ex symmetry/polish, does a GIA Ex CUT usually guarantee good performance (now that GIA has started to grade cut)? Can you tell the difference between GIA Ex cut vs. GIA VG cut with the eye? Finally, what about GIA Ex cut vs. AGS 0 cut? Shel
Posted: 11/3/2006 7:28:33 PM

There are 21 replies to this message. There are 21 replies on this page.

P: 11/3/2006 9:57:20 PM
shel Cut Rock Total Posts: 141 Last Post: 12/2/2008 Member Since: 8/28/2006	Would Rhino from GOG like to chime in? I'm genuinely curious about this topic, and I heard that he was comparing GIA Ex cut to GIA VG cut and soliciting opinions on whether one could see a difference in light performance. Sorry if I'm stealing your thunder by asking this, Rhino. I understand if you want to wait until your video is out (or is it out already?). Shel
Posted: 11/3/2006 9:57:20 PM

P: 11/3/2006 10:20:39 PM
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001	Hi Shel, Caught your post. Date: 11/3/2006 7:28:33 PM Author:shel Along the lines of another post by EBree, who asked about GIA Ex/Ex symmetry/polish, does a GIA Ex CUT usually guarantee good performance (now that GIA has started to grade cut)? GIA's Ex Cut grade was determined through observation testing which common folks like you and me looked at to determine which appearance pleased their eyes the most. Of the GIA Ex's I have seen on both ends of their spectrum (and in the middle for that matter), they've all shown excellent brightness, fire and scintillation. Granted I haven't seen stones that fell on the very fringes of the Ex grade but I have seen and possess stones that fall on the fringes/outskirts of the Very Good grade bordering on the Ex grade so in answre to your 2nd question... Can you tell the difference between GIA Ex cut vs. GIA VG cut with the eye? Definitely. Finally, what about GIA Ex cut vs. AGS 0 cut? Each lab has incorporated different criteria in determining their cut grade. GIA, after working with ray trace technologies abandoned it since it didn't always correllate with human observation and turned solely to human observation testing alone. The logic behind their system is that the most important technology the consumer walks away with after its all said and done are their eyes. So human perception of diamond beauty took precedence in determining the grading system. There had to be differences between the grades that were notable to human vision. AGS's Cut Grading system is based on advanced ray trace analysis and determination on where a diamond is drawing its light from in common viewing conditions through the "angular spectrum" observerable through their ASET technology coupled with proprietary "Performance Grading Software" which performs the ray trace examination. In some ways the AGS system is more critical in its examination than the GIA's but then there are also instances where an AGS 1 (or even higher) can be brighter than an AGS 0. It can get complicated which is why I prefer to stick with stones that get the highest grades in both systems. Hope that helps. Rhino Good Old Gold
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:20:39 PM

P: 11/3/2006 10:23:04 PM
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001	Date: 11/3/2006 9:57:20 PM Author: shel Would Rhino from GOG like to chime in? I'm genuinely curious about this topic, and I heard that he was comparing GIA Ex cut to GIA VG cut and soliciting opinions on whether one could see a difference in light performance. Sorry if I'm stealing your thunder by asking this, Rhino. I understand if you want to wait until your video is out (or is it out already?). No need to worry about stealing thunder shel. Questions are always good and should always be encouraged. I've been working on this video for a while now and everytime I think I'm finished I think of something else I need to add. I hope to have that completed this month. Kind regards, Rhino Good Old Gold
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:23:04 PM

P: 11/3/2006 10:29:11 PM
shel Cut Rock Total Posts: 141 Last Post: 12/2/2008 Member Since: 8/28/2006	Cool. Thanks, Rhino! That was good stuff. Can't wait to see your video. Shel
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:29:11 PM

P: 11/3/2006 11:44:09 PM
jayrenay9 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 703 Last Post: 10/25/2009 Member Since: 8/3/2006	Thanks for answering the queston Rhino -- it's really appreciated! I asked the question in another thread and apparently my common sense isn't common Whatever that was supposed to mean, I suppose I don't get it due to my lack of common sense. Thanks again, jayrenay
Posted: 11/3/2006 11:44:09 PM

P: 11/4/2006 11:22:19 AM
Paul-Antwerp Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,907 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/3/2002	Date: 11/3/2006 7:28:33 PM Author:shel Along the lines of another post by EBree, who asked about GIA Ex/Ex symmetry/polish, does a GIA Ex CUT usually guarantee good performance (now that GIA has started to grade cut)? It all depends on what the definition is of good performance. Many experts claim that there are various levels of quality within the EX-grade, and it depends on where your threshold is for 'good performance, whether the stones on the fringes of the EX-grade are still considered good enough performance for you. Date: 11/3/2006 7:28:33 PM Author:shel Can you tell the difference between GIA Ex cut vs. GIA VG cut with the eye? Not always. In the same way, you sometimes cannot tell the difference between a specific D and a specific E-colour. Or between a specific VS2 and a specific SI1. I am trying to say the following: grading uses thresholds, and although they are based upon observation, sometimes science and also conventions, there are always stones that are at the borderline of a grade. Live long, Paul Slegers Infinity Diamonds www.CraftedByInfinity.com
Posted: 11/4/2006 11:22:19 AM

P: 11/4/2006 11:41:27 AM
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001	Date: 11/3/2006 11:44:09 PM Author: jayrenay9 Thanks for answering the queston Rhino -- it's really appreciated! I asked the question in another thread and apparently my common sense isn't common Whatever that was supposed to mean, I suppose I don't get it due to my lack of common sense. Thanks again, jayrenay No sweat Jayrenay. I certainly wish I had more time I could devote to answering questions on this forum. It's a little tough to break away sometimes. Always a pleasure to serve. I don't quite get your statement that "your common sense isn't common" but if its regarding your diamond preferences ... you can't let anyone dictate to you what you do and don't like. Oftentimes people (including myself) like to impose our preferences on others when their tastes and preferences may be totally different. I'm not sure if that even addresses what you're talking about but ... I'm taking a stab in the dark there. Your common sense is YOUR common sense and I'm sure it's working just fine even if its not common. Rhino Good Old Gold
Posted: 11/4/2006 11:41:27 AM

P: 11/4/2006 11:44:39 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 11/3/2006 7:28:33 PM Author:shel Along the lines of another post by EBree, who asked about GIA Ex/Ex symmetry/polish, does a GIA Ex CUT usually guarantee good performance (now that GIA has started to grade cut)? Can you tell the difference between GIA Ex cut vs. GIA VG cut with the eye? Finally, what about GIA Ex cut vs. AGS 0 cut? As Paul said it depends on how you define good. Are they all the very top performance wise... NO Will a total dog get the GIA top grade.. Again in my opinion NO So I think for the most part a GIA EX cut rated stone will be a reasonable performer. BUT.. I love the top one percenters and the none of the lab rating systems really address that. The GIA or AGS grade does not matter to me because my criteria goes far beyond it. My favorites will score AGS0/GIA-EX but thats not the reason they are my favorites. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 11/4/2006 11:44:39 AM

P: 11/4/2006 12:16:11 PM
diamondseeker2006 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 17,609 Last Post: 11/18/2009 Member Since: 1/11/2006	Date: 11/4/2006 11:44:39 AM Author: strmrdr As Paul said it depends on how you define good. Are they all the very top performance wise... NO Will a total dog get the GIA top grade.. Again in my opinion NO So I think for the most part a GIA EX cut rated stone will be a reasonable performer. BUT.. I love the top one percenters and the none of the lab rating systems really address that. The GIA or AGS grade does not matter to me because my criteria goes far beyond it. My favorites will score AGS0/GIA-EX but thats not the reason they are my favorites. Okay Storm, I'd like to know what your criteria for rounds are! Will you tell us? ~~~ When in doubt...don't.~~~
Posted: 11/4/2006 12:16:11 PM

P: 11/4/2006 12:21:02 PM
Ellen Ideal Rock Total Posts: 22,894 Last Post: 11/6/2009 Member Since: 1/13/2006	Date: 11/4/2006 11:41:27 AM Author: Rhino I don't quite get your statement that 'your common sense isn't common' It pertains to a comment someone else made. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "It is also important for the State to inculcate in its subjects an aversion to any 'conspiracy theory of history' for a search for 'conspiracies' means a search for motives and an attribution of responsibility for historical misdeeds." -Murray N. Rothbard, in The Anatomy of the State John Swinton [1829-1901] Chief Editorial Writer of the New York Times (Considered "the Dean of his Profession" by his peers), when asked to toast an 'Independent Press' in a gathering at the National Press Club, circa 1880 "There is no such thing in America as an independent press unless it is in the country towns. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dare express an honest opinion. If you express it you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid... for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for doing similar things.... The business of the New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and sell his country and race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same thing, his salary. You know this, and I know it and what foolery to be toasting an 'independent press.' We are tools, and the vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, all are the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
Posted: 11/4/2006 12:21:02 PM

P: 11/4/2006 12:46:50 PM
denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,614 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004	Date: 11/4/2006 11:22:19 AM Author: Paul-Antwerp It all depends on what the definition is of good performance. As usual, Paul nailed it. It depends on what you call a top performer. GIA excellent means that theres a pretty good chance that the stone is in the top 20% or so according to GIAs rules. Some would argue that its even more generous than that because it doesnt seem to be a linear scale so maybe its more like the top 30-40%. Even that is sort of a problem for shoppers if you dont happen to agree with their criteria. Neil Beaty GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA Professional Appraisals in Denver There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.
Posted: 11/4/2006 12:46:50 PM

P: 11/4/2006 1:05:08 PM
jayrenay9 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 703 Last Post: 10/25/2009 Member Since: 8/3/2006	Date: 11/4/2006 11:41:27 AM Author: Rhino Date: 11/3/2006 11:44:09 PM Author: jayrenay9 Thanks for answering the queston Rhino -- it's really appreciated! I asked the question in another thread and apparently my common sense isn't common Whatever that was supposed to mean, I suppose I don't get it due to my lack of common sense. Thanks again, jayrenay No sweat Jayrenay. I certainly wish I had more time I could devote to answering questions on this forum. It's a little tough to break away sometimes. Always a pleasure to serve. I don't quite get your statement that 'your common sense isn't common' but if its regarding your diamond preferences ... you can't let anyone dictate to you what you do and don't like. Oftentimes people (including myself) like to impose our preferences on others when their tastes and preferences may be totally different. I'm not sure if that even addresses what you're talking about but ... I'm taking a stab in the dark there. Your common sense is YOUR common sense and I'm sure it's working just fine even if its not common. Sorry for the confusion there. It started on another thread where I asked what difference one would see in an ex/ex stone compared to a gd/gd stone. Gary (Cut Nut) responded back "common sense isn't always common." I'm not sure exactly what he meant, but I took it that if I had common sense I would know the answer to that question. Maybe I read it wrong. All I know, is that I still had no idea what the difference would be -- whether I have common sense or not. So again, I appreciate you (Rhino) taking the time to answer questions that seem simple to some. jayrenay
Posted: 11/4/2006 1:05:08 PM

P: 11/4/2006 2:44:58 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 11/4/2006 12:16:11 PM Author: diamondseeker2006 Date: 11/4/2006 11:44:39 AM Author: strmrdr As Paul said it depends on how you define good. Are they all the very top performance wise... NO Will a total dog get the GIA top grade.. Again in my opinion NO So I think for the most part a GIA EX cut rated stone will be a reasonable performer. BUT.. I love the top one percenters and the none of the lab rating systems really address that. The GIA or AGS grade does not matter to me because my criteria goes far beyond it. My favorites will score AGS0/GIA-EX but thats not the reason they are my favorites. Okay Storm, I'd like to know what your criteria for rounds are! Will you tell us? There are many combos I like and some I don't like that others like. For example my top 2 or 3 to buy criteria; These are my personal choices not what I recommend for everyone. (there aren't enough of them out there) My criteria combines both workmanship and performance. Superior workmanship is something that means a lot to me and may not someone else. 1: id/id ex/ex polish and sym. 2: tight dimensions with very little variation. Under .2 degrees on the pavilion, .5 degrees on the crown. 3: painting and digging held to the min. extent possible (all diamonds will have a little) 4: min. yaw as described by Brian @ whiteflash. 5: picture perfect h&a 6: min. Azimuths deviation from ideal on the helium report. 7: min diameter variation 8: long lgf 79-81+ 9: long stars ~58% 10: high 40's low 34's angle combo, 40.9/34.4 etc., min. pavilion 40.76 max. 41.2 with matching low crown. 11: 55-57 table 12: reasonable girdle. no v-thn or thick 13: lifetime trade up 14: and most of all from a vendor who I can respect. To get my 1% criteria just expand the variations allowance and the crown angle ranges a little but keep the min painting and digging and add 77 and 78 to the lgf% range and 55%-65% for stars ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 11/4/2006 2:44:58 PM

P: 11/4/2006 3:17:42 PM
diamondseeker2006 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 17,609 Last Post: 11/18/2009 Member Since: 1/11/2006	Thanks so much for posting that Storm! I think it is very interesting and helpful! I am happy to say that my diamond comes very close to those preferences, and I'll agree that it is beautiful! ~~~ When in doubt...don't.~~~
Posted: 11/4/2006 3:17:42 PM

P: 11/4/2006 7:05:32 PM
Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,579 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000	Date: 11/4/2006 2:44:58 PM Author: strmrdr There are many combos I like and some I don't like that others like. For example my top 2 or 3 to buy criteria; These are my personal choices not what I recommend for everyone. (there aren't enough of them out there) My criteria combines both workmanship and performance. Superior workmanship is something that means a lot to me and may not someone else. 1: id/id ex/ex polish and sym. 2: tight dimensions with very little variation. Under .2 degrees on the pavilion, .5 degrees on the crown. 3: painting and digging held to the min. extent possible (all diamonds will have a little) 4: min. yaw as described by Brian @ whiteflash. 5: picture perfect h&a 6: min. Azimuths deviation from ideal on the helium report. 7: min diameter variation 8: long lgf 79-81+ 9: long stars ~58% 10: high 40's low 34's angle combo, 40.9/34.4 etc., min. pavilion 40.76 max. 41.2 with matching low crown. 11: 55-57 table 12: reasonable girdle. no v-thn or thick 13: lifetime trade up 14: and most of all from a vendor who I can respect. To get my 1% criteria just expand the variations allowance and the crown angle ranges a little but keep the min painting and digging and add 77 and 78 to the lgf% range and 55%-65% for stars Same problem Storm - you are designing a grading system using criteria that were not available when the systems we have now were invented. You have listed a features based cut grading system. What this does is by ruling in a narrow range of alternatives, it rules out a myriad of other possable opportunities. Now that range of options is fine for you as an individual, but can be bad for those who simply want a pretty sparkling diamond. Unfortunately the world is not so simple. I do not like features based grading -I like outcome based systems. Sym and polish have a 'mind clean place', but they do not interest me as much when I know that sometimes breaking rules gets better outcomes. A very fine experiance can be had from a restaurant that is in a bad location. Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT HCA and Ideal-scope developer http://www.ideal-scope.com and http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au
Posted: 11/4/2006 7:05:32 PM

P: 11/4/2006 8:01:12 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 11/4/2006 7:05:32 PM Author: Garry H (Cut Nut) Date: 11/4/2006 2:44:58 PM Author: strmrdr There are many combos I like and some I don't like that others like. For example my top 2 or 3 to buy criteria; These are my personal choices not what I recommend for everyone. (there aren't enough of them out there) My criteria combines both workmanship and performance. Superior workmanship is something that means a lot to me and may not someone else. 1: id/id ex/ex polish and sym. 2: tight dimensions with very little variation. Under .2 degrees on the pavilion, .5 degrees on the crown. 3: painting and digging held to the min. extent possible (all diamonds will have a little) 4: min. yaw as described by Brian @ whiteflash. 5: picture perfect h&amp;a 6: min. Azimuths deviation from ideal on the helium report. 7: min diameter variation 8: long lgf 79-81+ 9: long stars ~58% 10: high 40's low 34's angle combo, 40.9/34.4 etc., min. pavilion 40.76 max. 41.2 with matching low crown. 11: 55-57 table 12: reasonable girdle. no v-thn or thick 13: lifetime trade up 14: and most of all from a vendor who I can respect. To get my 1% criteria just expand the variations allowance and the crown angle ranges a little but keep the min painting and digging and add 77 and 78 to the lgf% range and 55%-65% for stars Same problem Storm - you are designing a grading system using criteria that were not available when the systems we have now were invented. You have listed a features based cut grading system. What this does is by ruling in a narrow range of alternatives, it rules out a myriad of other possable opportunities. Now that range of options is fine for you as an individual, but can be bad for those who simply want a pretty sparkling diamond. Unfortunately the world is not so simple. I do not like features based grading -I like outcome based systems. Sym and polish have a 'mind clean place', but they do not interest me as much when I know that sometimes breaking rules gets better outcomes. A very fine experiance can be had from a restaurant that is in a bad location. Garry I agree in some ways disagree in others. The features define the diamond. A diamond cut to my preferences with no material defects will score at or near the top of any test you throw at it including my eyeballs. Its not the only combo that makes for awesome diamonds its what I consider the best of the best. Where is the cut off for awesome diamonds? top 5%,10%,20%,%40 that is something each person has to decide for themselves. I wasnt asked what id consider a nice diamond I was asked what I consider the best of the best. Maybe im taking the question the wrong way so I will take a shot at what id consider a nice diamond. It is a much harder question. To begin to answer it: Id start with the hca score and tightness of the pavilion, no painting/digging, then go to ideal scope and aset images, heart images,DC,B-scope, and other tools then consider the workmanship issues then decide from there. To be honest except for small melee where it dont make a lot of difference I have 0 interest in owning anything but the best of the best cut diamonds both rounds and asschers. Anything else to me personaly is a waste of money and good rough. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:01:12 PM

P: 11/4/2006 8:30:41 PM
poorboy Rough Rock Total Posts: 48 Last Post: 11/10/2006 Member Since: 11/22/2005	Strmrdr, Thanks for posting the things that you look at. Out of curiousity, I would love to know what you think of this one: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2554/ Sorry to get off topic on the thread.
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:30:41 PM

P: 11/4/2006 8:35:20 PM
Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,579 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000	Date: 11/4/2006 8:01:12 PM Author: strmrdr Date: 11/4/2006 7:05:32 PM Author: Garry H (Cut Nut) Date: 11/4/2006 2:44:58 PM Author: strmrdr There are many combos I like and some I don't like that others like. For example my top 2 or 3 to buy criteria; These are my personal choices not what I recommend for everyone. (there aren't enough of them out there) My criteria combines both workmanship and performance. Superior workmanship is something that means a lot to me and may not someone else. 1: id/id ex/ex polish and sym. 2: tight dimensions with very little variation. Under .2 degrees on the pavilion, .5 degrees on the crown. 3: painting and digging held to the min. extent possible (all diamonds will have a little) 4: min. yaw as described by Brian @ whiteflash. 5: picture perfect h&amp;amp;a 6: min. Azimuths deviation from ideal on the helium report. 7: min diameter variation 8: long lgf 79-81+ 9: long stars ~58% 10: high 40's low 34's angle combo, 40.9/34.4 etc., min. pavilion 40.76 max. 41.2 with matching low crown. 11: 55-57 table 12: reasonable girdle. no v-thn or thick 13: lifetime trade up 14: and most of all from a vendor who I can respect. To get my 1% criteria just expand the variations allowance and the crown angle ranges a little but keep the min painting and digging and add 77 and 78 to the lgf% range and 55%-65% for stars Same problem Storm - you are designing a grading system using criteria that were not available when the systems we have now were invented. You have listed a features based cut grading system. What this does is by ruling in a narrow range of alternatives, it rules out a myriad of other possable opportunities. Now that range of options is fine for you as an individual, but can be bad for those who simply want a pretty sparkling diamond. Unfortunately the world is not so simple. I do not like features based grading -I like outcome based systems. Sym and polish have a 'mind clean place', but they do not interest me as much when I know that sometimes breaking rules gets better outcomes. A very fine experiance can be had from a restaurant that is in a bad location. Garry I agree in some ways disagree in others. The features define the diamond. A diamond cut to my preferences with no material defects will score at or near the top of any test you throw at it including my eyeballs. Its not the only combo that makes for awesome diamonds its what I consider the best of the best. Where is the cut off for awesome diamonds? top 5%,10%,20%,%40 that is something each person has to decide for themselves. I wasnt asked what id consider a nice diamond I was asked what I consider the best of the best. Maybe im taking the question the wrong way so I will take a shot at what id consider a nice diamond. It is a much harder question. To begin to answer it: Id start with the hca score and tightness of the pavilion, no painting/digging, then go to ideal scope and aset images, heart images,DC,B-scope, and other tools then consider the workmanship issues then decide from there. To be honest except for small melee where it dont make a lot of difference I have 0 interest in owning anything but the best of the best cut diamonds both rounds and asschers. Anything else to me personaly is a waste of money and good rough. The cut off is innovation. Change that adds value Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT HCA and Ideal-scope developer http://www.ideal-scope.com and http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:35:20 PM

P: 11/4/2006 9:48:13 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 11/4/2006 8:35:20 PM Author: Garry H (Cut Nut) The cut off is innovation. Change that adds value I understand your position we have discussed it many times and in a lot of ways I agree with you but when it comes to my money im inclined to stick with what I know "I" like and what gives me a good feeling. Some people like D color some like IF I like superior workmanship/craftsmanship ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 11/4/2006 9:48:13 PM

P: 11/4/2006 10:02:07 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 11/4/2006 8:30:41 PM Author: poorboy Strmrdr, Thanks for posting the things that you look at. Out of curiousity, I would love to know what you think of this one: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2554/ Sorry to get off topic on the thread. 1% er.. no helium report but im thinking the Azimuths deviation from ideal would show some variation and a slightly longer lgf% and longer stars would kick it up a little. Overall its a very nice diamond and its a tolk... Id consider it. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 11/4/2006 10:02:07 PM

P: 11/4/2006 10:05:34 PM
poorboy Rough Rock Total Posts: 48 Last Post: 11/10/2006 Member Since: 11/22/2005	Thanks strmdr for taking a look! This is my last question - do you like this one better http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/1108/?
Posted: 11/4/2006 10:05:34 PM

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