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H&A when graded by GIA?

P: 3/3/2003 10:27:04 AM
harry Rough Rock Total Posts: 50 Last Post: 6/8/2003 Member Since: 2/27/2003	As I understand it, an AGS report will tell you if a diamond is a H&A, but a GIA report will not say anything. If I buy a diamond with a Excellent/Excellent on its GIA report and the jeweler tells me it's a H&A diamond, how can I be sure that it is truly a H&A diamond? I can see the patterns myself but I don't think I can distinguish between a "very near" H&A and a "true" H&A.
Posted: 3/3/2003 10:27:04 AM

There are 15 replies to this message. There are 15 replies on this page.

P: 3/3/2003 11:17:44 AM
Pricescope Administrator Total Posts: 8,265 Last Post: 1/5/2008 Member Since: 1/1/2000	Harry, ---------------- If I buy a diamond with a Excellent/Excellent on its GIA report and the jeweler tells me it's a H&A diamond, how can I be sure that it is truly a H&A diamond? I can see the patterns myself but I don't think I can distinguish between a "very near" H&A and a "true" H&A. ---------------- AGS report dosn't tell whether diamond is H&A either. AGS report tels AGS cut grade (see AGS Ideal Cut). It also gives you information about crown and pavilion angles while GIA doesn't. Ex/Ex polish and symmetry do not guarantee H&A either. To make sure a diamond is true H&A, you should check it with the Hearts and Arrows viewer. See also Phony Hearts and Arrows Diamonds Pricescope
Posted: 3/3/2003 11:17:44 AM

P: 3/3/2003 11:46:45 AM
RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000	You wrote that the diamond was graded Ex Ex by GIA. This has nothing to do with the H&A image. The symmetry and polish grade assigned by GIA has relevance to the diamond's EXTERNAL symmetry. The H&A viewer shows its APPROXIMATE internal symmetry. However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected. In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones. I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone. I was sent one viewer that shows the arrows almost perfect, but I haven't yet had ONE STONE where it properly shows the Hearts image. So the reliance of having the "TRUE" H&A has to be based on not only the correctness of the viewer itself, but also the person doing the rating of it. Even the prices of the viewers vary a lot.. that should provide you with some food for thought.... Rockdoc Bill Leiberum 1948-2007 Thanks for everything and Rest In Peace,Bill.
Posted: 3/3/2003 11:46:45 AM

P: 3/3/2003 1:19:19 PM
Giangi Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,530 Last Post: 10/29/2006 Member Since: 1/23/2003	Very often in AGS reports you see 'H&A AGSL XXXXXXXXXX' has been inscribed on the girdle of this diamond. By inscribing that on the girdle, they (AGS) are not telling you the stone is a perfect 'A' grade H&A... They are just doing what the clien has asked! This can be very confusing! _____________ Omnia Mea Mecum Porto. Giangi
Posted: 3/3/2003 1:19:19 PM

P: 3/3/2003 1:36:57 PM
mdx Ideal Rock Total Posts: 570 Last Post: 11/29/2007 Member Since: 3/1/2002	RockDoc wrote However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected. In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones. I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone. Rockdoc I have noticed that if the Arrows are clealy visable when looking through an "Idealscope" Then they are pretty clear in most H&A viewers. We have about 5 versions Diamond Exchange Ltd. (Australia)
Posted: 3/3/2003 1:36:57 PM

P: 3/3/2003 1:38:15 PM
mdx Ideal Rock Total Posts: 570 Last Post: 11/29/2007 Member Since: 3/1/2002	RockDoc wrote However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected. In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones. I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone. Rockdoc Rockdoc I have noticed that if the Arrows are clearly visible when looking through an "Idealscope" Then they are pretty clear in most H&A viewers. We use about 5 versions of the H&A,viewer. Another thing we notice is if the H&A scope has a purple foil the definition of the image is increased. Wayne Melborne Diamond Exchange Ltd Diamond Exchange Ltd. (Australia)
Posted: 3/3/2003 1:38:15 PM

P: 3/3/2003 1:38:31 PM
niceice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,792 Last Post: 7/22/2008 Member Since: 1/29/2003	To add further to the confusion, the cutters often inscribe H&A on the girdle edge of the diamond because many of the labs won't inscribe it, thus the labs are forced to add the "H&A" under the comments section because the inscription becomes a characteristic of the diamond and as such must be mentioned on the lab report... Nice game, heh? Todd L. Gray, President NiceIce.com
Posted: 3/3/2003 1:38:31 PM

P: 3/3/2003 3:20:42 PM
Giangi Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,530 Last Post: 10/29/2006 Member Since: 1/23/2003	Hi R&T, I agree, this is very, very confusing for the buyer. _____________ Omnia Mea Mecum Porto. Giangi
Posted: 3/3/2003 3:20:42 PM

P: 3/3/2003 10:55:45 PM
harry Rough Rock Total Posts: 50 Last Post: 6/8/2003 Member Since: 2/27/2003	Oh I see. The "H&A AGSL XXXXXXXX" under the Comments section of an AGS report doest not mean that AGS graded it as a H&A, just that the cutter inscribed "H&A AGSL XXXXXXXX" in the girdle. Is this correct? I still haven't solved my H&A identification problem though. What exactly do I look for in a "true" H&A? And is there a generally accepted standard that determines whether a diamond is a "true" H&A or just a "near" H&A?
Posted: 3/3/2003 10:55:45 PM

P: 3/3/2003 11:05:43 PM
harry Rough Rock Total Posts: 50 Last Post: 6/8/2003 Member Since: 2/27/2003	---------------- On 3/3/2003 1:36:57 PM mdx wrote: RockDoc wrote However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected. In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones. I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone. Rockdoc I have noticed that if the Arrows are clealy visable when looking through an "Idealscope" Then they are pretty clear in most H&A viewers. We have about 5 versions ---------------- What is this business with "A" grade H&As? The Pricescope "Beware of Phony Hearts & Arrows Diamonds" says the following: "Quality A, B, C or 1, 2, 3 do not exist. They are either TRUE Hearts and Arrows diamonds or they are NOT. These standards need to be maintained just as they have in Japan where the standard was set and I believe all should maintain." http://www.pricescope.com/hearts_phony.asp No doubt there will be debate on this topic. It would be very helpful if someone can tell me what's the accepted industry standard. Thanks.
Posted: 3/3/2003 11:05:43 PM

P: 3/4/2003 2:26:36 AM
Giangi Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,530 Last Post: 10/29/2006 Member Since: 1/23/2003	I put A under inverted commas cause I don't think it exists. There are many internet vendors that use A-B-C grades, though. I used that 'A' just to make an example. In my opinion a diamond can be called H&A ONLY IF it has a perfect patterns. As I said, I don't believe in A/B/C... But a lot of vendors do... This is a hot topic _____________ Omnia Mea Mecum Porto. Giangi
Posted: 3/4/2003 2:26:36 AM

P: 3/4/2003 8:23:18 AM
Pricescope Administrator Total Posts: 8,265 Last Post: 1/5/2008 Member Since: 1/1/2000	Harry, Hearts and Arrow Explained is written by Brian Gavin (aka BrianTheCutter). Brian has very strict approach to H&A and doesn't believe in A/B/C grades of H&A. There is no industry standard even for ideal cut. None of US labs is grading H&A. H&A came from Japan, however, and Japanese Central Gem Laboratory does grade H&A. Pricescope
Posted: 3/4/2003 8:23:18 AM

P: 3/4/2003 1:33:35 PM
Giangi Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,530 Last Post: 10/29/2006 Member Since: 1/23/2003	Ditto on Leonid! _____________ Omnia Mea Mecum Porto. Giangi
Posted: 3/4/2003 1:33:35 PM

P: 3/4/2003 3:00:41 PM
Heyjud Cut Rock Total Posts: 243 Last Post: 3/30/2004 Member Since: 2/26/2003	Ditto ditto to both of you. The hearts and arrows must be true Brian the cutter explains it well If the patterns are right It's clear to tell ! Check it out!! heyjud "It Could Be Verse"
Posted: 3/4/2003 3:00:41 PM

P: 3/5/2003 12:04:57 AM
niceice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,792 Last Post: 7/22/2008 Member Since: 1/29/2003	We're sorry, but we have to disagree. The fact is that both the CGL and Zenhokyo laboratories in Japan - the original graders of the Hearts & Arrows diamonds - both graded the completeness and crispness of the Hearts & Arrows patterns using Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair and Poor as descriptive terms... Hence the use of A:Excellent; B:Very Good; C:Good, etc. by many of the on-line dealers. The fact is that we have yet to see a perfect H&A pattern and we used to sell Brian's production prior to his arrangement with WhiteFlash... None of the H&A patterns are perfect, send us your best and we'll tell you what's wrong with it... Then we'll see how you feel about A/B/C grading of the patterns. Todd L. Gray, President NiceIce.com
Posted: 3/5/2003 12:04:57 AM

P: 3/5/2003 2:05:28 AM
LesleyH Ideal Rock Total Posts: 506 Last Post: 12/23/2008 Member Since: 8/29/2000	R and T: From what I have heard, you sold A CUT ABOVE's at the end of 1999, in the early days. Many leaps and strides have been made to perfect the cutting techniques, most recently with the introduction of the ACA2 line. We wish just as much as you do that there was one set of standards...but we still believe it either is or is not a H and A. LesleyH www.whiteflash.com Director of Sales at Whiteflash from 2000-2008
Posted: 3/5/2003 2:05:28 AM

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