AGS 0 & Sarin Data Vs. HCA vs. Brilliance Scope

Rich, Independent GG Appraiser
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory

Richard -Thanks for your response. Wow diamoncalc seems to be a great tool to evaluate a stone before actual tests are performed on the stone. The more information leads the consumer to make a more informed purchase. I really appreciate your time. I know the correlation between the HCA. Brilliance scope, and imaging equiptment have been answered somewhat on other threads, but it helps to take a little guessing out of the game by having some great people to give criticism based on technology they will share and I thank you for taking the time to do this for me. There have been many questions I have asked myself in buying a stone and one of them is I don't want to just rely on the HCA. Vendors on the internet are selling stones which usually have sarin data which you can plug into the HCA. My main question was what some of the vendors were seeing in direct correlation to HCA results vs. the brilliancescope results on a particular stone. I know that there are many different aspects involved in a diamond scoring very high in all 3 categories of the b-scope, but was also curious as to how stones without b-scope results would rate in direct correlation with what they scored on the HCA. Again I know there is not a finite answer, but was just curious as to any average trends vendors might see in comparison to the HCA and light return. I have read many different threads and have answered alot of my own questions without trying to post any redundant info. Just pure curiosity. I thank you again for your time Rich and welcome any other responses.

Josh Rioux
Sitka, Alaska

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

Rich, Independent GG Appraiser
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory

Hey Richard- Great Idea. A sort of assignment. I will get back and post as soon as I run a gammit of stones through and compare them. In the HCA i notice that the pavilion angle in which stones exhibiting excellent fire and brilliance on the HCA fall between (40.4-40.9). I think 40.5 being the ideal pav angle for stones which are run through it receive the higher scores. I also notice that if the pav angle runs over the 40.9 mark it affects the overall score on scintillation just as dropping below a pav angle of 40.4 it affects the light return of the stone. In both categories light return and scintillation dropping going over or under the mark raises the overall score of the stones visual performance. Anyway thanks for the project & I'll post when I get done with my little homework assignment and any other observations I make.

How's the weather in your neck of the wood's. Haven't had a drop of snow here since the 24th of Dec. Temps. have been in the mid-40's very mild for these parts and a welcome change.

Jonathan? RockDoc? Garry? I'm waiting for some replies on my earlier posts. I'm here to learn.

Josh Rioux
Sitka, Alaska

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

Rich, Independent GG Appraiser
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory

Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT

HCA and Ideal-scope developer

http://www.ideal-scope.com and
http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au

Rich, Independent GG Appraiser
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory

----------------
On 2/17/2003 10:27:31 AM optimized wrote:

Hi Josh,

I also think you've got a great research project going. I did a little bit of the kind of stuff you're talking about while I was looking for my diamond, and I found Barry's SuperbCert site to be an invaluable tool since it has both BrillianceScope Analyses and HCA results for all stones listed. I got in the habit of opening multiple browser windows and checking the stones through various sources (separate pages for: SC product page, Megascope report, BScope analysis, HCA, as well as Dave Atlas' AGA cut charts).

Hey Tim-Thanks for the advice. I too have the same research style as you do evaluating stones. I was not aware of Dave Atlas AgA cut charts, do thanks.

Hey Barry-I am using your site and Joonathan's site being the both of you have that information and b-scope results available. I graduated in Upstate New York and can remember how it could really dump on us.

It will take a while for me to run all the stones, but I should get back with you guys and the results in a couple days.

Thanks-Josh Rioux
Sitka, ALaska

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT

HCA and Ideal-scope developer

http://www.ideal-scope.com and
http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au

"Economy of words has never been my strong suit"

Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT

HCA and Ideal-scope developer

http://www.ideal-scope.com and
http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au

----------------
On 2/20/2003 47:22 AM Cut Nut wrote:

hmmm

Unless you can get a good cross section of data from excellent and poor stones, this is not going to be a very insightful comparison.

Perhaps if you could break the VH into VH 1,2 and 3 - then I could give you a more complex HCA that scores each factor numerically. But it would be a lot more effort S.

----------------

I agree with Cut Nut.....in order for the data to be meaningful, it would need to include poorly cut stones as well....stones known to have poor cut proportions which score poorly on the HCA and their corresponding b-scope results.

I'm not sure there's a way for Josh to gather this data, though. The few sites that provide B-scope results don't display poorly cut stones. The only way to get this would be for those who have B-scopes to intentionally scan some poorly cut stones for educational purposes only (Jonathan?) and to post B-scope results for them. Knowing how busy Jonathan and other vendors are, I'm not sure if they'd have the availability to contribute the raw data.

I'd really be interested in the result, though. Great effort on the table, Josh...I admire your curiosity.

_____________________
Note: Chainsaw Not Sold Separately.

"Economy of words has never been my strong suit"

"Economy of words has never been my strong suit"

"Economy of words has never been my strong suit"

Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT

HCA and Ideal-scope developer

http://www.ideal-scope.com and
http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au

"Economy of words has never been my strong suit"

Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT

HCA and Ideal-scope developer

http://www.ideal-scope.com and
http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au

Garry a desk top version of the HCA would be great for me to use..more info please...

Tim-I don't know what say except thanks. I don't know how you retrieved the data from the scrabbled muck on the screen but you did it great job. My initial intentions were to include either the sarin data/megascope readings with the stones I am comparing to also get a general idea if the proportions have a part in affecting the b-scope results. I like the idea of having the 3 classes of rating in each category for the b-scope. I will persist in collecting the data and Tim I would like to ask you how you made that chart and posted it in the size so it would fit when you posted it. My next results which will be of more stones added to the previous list will include the scoring of vh1,vh2,vh3 etc...

Garry: I also thought that the comparisons in this study needed to reflect stones which scored low on the high on the hca but low on the b-scope. I know that the 2 posted sites in which I am comparing stones are posting the best stones in all categories. Take a 1,000 stones that were graded and post the best 200 which only fall in certain parameters. I too agree it is important to list those other stones who don't perform well on the b-scope but perform well on the hca so we can really get down and scrutinize what truly affects the b-scope reading rather than just assuming a stone that has a high hca score will perform high too on the b-scope.

Tim-Please don't hesitate to contact me via email on any suggestions you have for the charts.scorpionrioux@hotmail.com

Jonathan/AKA Rhino-Can you please send me as much data and b-scope readings on poor performs on the b-scope with high hca scores. I am using the stones on your site currently along with the stones on Barry's site in making the initial comparisons as part of this research but by the looks of things you guys are posting your top stones, we need them all.

Richard-How are you doin? Haven't heard a word back from you on this post. Are you busy soaking up that florida sun?

Thanks a million and get back to me. I will be posting more results as I evaluate and chart the different stones.

-Josh RIoux
Sitka, Alaska

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

----------------
On 2/20/2003 47:22 AM Cut Nut wrote:

hmmm

Unless you can get a good cross section of data from excellent and poor stones, this is not going to be a very insightful comparison. Especially since the only real variance in your data is Briliancescope "scintillation" - I have never been able to understand what they measure in this feature.

You are trying to make a chart the equivalent of the stock market during the tech bubble a few years ago. You could prove lots with such data that would be meaningless.

Perhaps if you could break the VH into VH 1,2 and 3 - then I could give you a more complex HCA that scores each factor numerically. But it would be a lot more effort S.

----------------

Hey GArry-I will add this to the comparison charts. What do you think about adding the megascope data/ sarin data along with the changes and the addition of the poor performing stones. Any other suggestions would be insightful.

Josh RIoux
Sitka, ALaska

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT

HCA and Ideal-scope developer

http://www.ideal-scope.com and
http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au

----------------
On 2/20/2003 11:54:23 PM Cut Nut wrote:

I tried to email you Josh, but it bounced.

Bummer Garry. Did you try scorpionrioux@hotmail.com

Here is the message:
I would like to know first if you will be able to get some decent representative Brilliancescope and proportion data.

The data I am using off the 2 sites is from the gem-ex brilliancescope and scanned and posted sarin data & megascope data

Also Josh I hope you would understand:
I will also need some assurances before I give you a copy of HCA - it would be unprotected and could be passed on to anyone as we have no codes or protection built in..

I wouldn't want to do anything of the sort Garry. It would be a good tool and I would value having a copy. I would also give you my word I wouldn't pass it on & would strictly be using it for the purpose of the study.

Finally when you do this study it should be conducted with no set plan to seek or find anomalous data between the two systems - it should include all available data so that exceptions are seen in context.

I understand that would taint the data and would not deem the study as an un-biased one. The data will be collected in a concise way and will be stated as is with no alterations. I am leaving any conclusions on the final analysis of the study up to you or any other qualified professional in the field. I see myself as a person with great curiousity and at the same time am willing to do the leg work in collecting the data and will leave it up to you guys elaborate on the findings. It will hopefully provide a little more foundation for me in the search of what the data and facts conclude with the expert opinions added.

regards
Garry Holloway

Thanks Garry!

-Josh

----------------

Josh Rioux
Haines, Alaska
*The Colored Gemstone Nut*

Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT

HCA and Ideal-scope developer

http://www.ideal-scope.com and
http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au

Rich, Independent GG Appraiser
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory