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 Diamond Performance

P:  7/13/2006 12:15:55 PM  
Little Star
Little Star

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Last Post: 7/16/2006
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I have some questions which I hope the many experts here can help me. Before that, I wish to take this opportunity to thank the PS'ers and the great people from Whiteflash who have helped me with my diamond selection.

I have purchased an ACA from Whiteflash not too long ago. Here are the diamond specs:

Carat: 0.736
Color: F
Clarity: VS1
Depth: 61.4
Table: 56.3
Crown Angle: 34.8
Crown %: 15.2
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Pavilion %: 43
Girdle: Thin to Medium Faceted
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Culet: Pointed
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 5.80-5.82X3.57
LGF: 78% } Gotten these from the AGS report.
Stars: 52% } Correct me if I am wrong.

Diamond Link

I have no complaints with my Classic ACA. It is indeed a beautiful diamond. However, as part of learning, I have some questions here:

1. I noticed that the diamond performs 'worst' under fluorescent lighting. It is still very white and bright but compared to other lightings, it is clear that the sparkle is not as obvious. May I know what diamond specs (crown/pavilion angles, LGF, etc) would give better performance under this lighting condition?

2. I have compared my ACA with a HOF at a local retail outlet. Although the ACA appears whiter than the HOF (this could also be due to the HOF being a G color), I am surprised to observe that the HOF is more fiery. Why is this so? Is it because the ACA has been cut to give a balanced performance in a wider variety of lightings and as such, underperforms the HOF under spotlights? Would changes to some of the diamond specs above give rise to better performance?

I appreciate comments from the experts here. Thank you in advance.
Posted:  7/13/2006 12:15:55 PM

 There are 38 replies to this message.  There are 30 replies on this page.

P: 7/13/2006 12:46:33 PM
Ellen
Ellen

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Hi LS.

As to your first question, I know of no one who has ever had their diamond sparkle under fluorescent lighting like in an office. It just doesn't do anything for the diamond.

However, open fluorescent lighting (no cover over the bulbs)set very high in certain stores is a different story. The look will make you giddy. Tower records is supposed to have them. I've found them in certain grocery stores, and a few retail stores. Try looking for them!

As for the HOF showing more fire, it's probably just due it's specific cut. It is said that a higher crown angle produces more fire. However, my crown angle is 34, and my diamond gives off more fire than white light. So, who knows...

I would say, just enjoy your diamond, it's looks like you have a real beauty there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is also important for the State to inculcate in its subjects an aversion to any 'conspiracy theory of history' for a search for 'conspiracies' means a search for motives and an attribution of responsibility for historical misdeeds."

-Murray N. Rothbard, in The Anatomy of the State



John Swinton [1829-1901] Chief Editorial Writer of the New York Times (Considered "the Dean of his Profession" by his peers), when asked to toast an 'Independent Press' in a gathering at the National Press Club, circa 1880

"There is no such thing in America as an independent press unless it is in the country towns. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dare express an honest opinion. If you express it you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid... for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for doing similar things....

The business of the New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and sell his country and race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same thing, his salary. You know this, and I know it and what foolery to be toasting an 'independent press.' We are tools, and the vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, all are the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."

Posted:  7/13/2006 12:46:33 PM
P: 7/13/2006 1:09:16 PM
JohnQuixote
JohnQuixote

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Hi Little Star.  Thanks for the kind comments about WF and ACA.  Being familiar with these diamonds I'm glad to offer input. 

1.  Diffused, fluorescent lighting doesn't produce much sparkle in diamonds.  This is why laboratories perform grading under these conditions:  Performance is reduced and it's eaiser to judge color, inclusions, etc.  It will look like this outside on a cloudy day as well (guys, don't propose outside on a cloudy day).

2.  There are a number of reasons you could have observed more fire in HOF diamond.  For instance, it may have had a smaller table/higher crown, the minor facets configurations could have played a role or it could have been overall proportions and the specific lighting you were in.

It's also possible your eyes may prefer the look of an ACA New Line diamond.  The colored flashes are bigger & more visible from a distance, described as 'broadfire' scintillation, as opposed to Classic which has a more rapid, small on-off 'pinfire' scintillation.  New Line also looks brighter under fluorescent lights.  This is a matter of personal taste and it really is a subtle difference (I always compare it to the dif between fine wines) - but many people with diamond experience voice a preference for the New Line 'look.'

There are quite a few past threads about ACA diamonds compared to this brand.  Maybe a forum search would reveal what configurations the diamonds being compared had?

I hope this is information of the kind you're seeking.  Let me know if I can help further, LS.

Edited to add:  Ellen's reply is excellent.

John

__________________________

John Pollard

Whiteflash Director of Education 2004-2007

Posted:  7/13/2006 1:09:16 PM
P: 7/13/2006 2:54:06 PM
whatmeworry
whatmeworry

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Hi Little Star,
  Congratulatons on your ACA. 

This is from GIA's study on Fire:
 
"Across commercial ranges, pavilion angle, lower-girdle facet length, and table size have the largest effect."

Here's the Link:  http://www.gia.edu/pdfs/Fall_2001_Cut.pdf  They have some nice graphs that show how their fire metric changes as you change different variables.

However if you want more fire (table smaller, pav angle smaller, etc.), you will be sacrificing brightness.  You can't have it all   So I think your observation that your ACA is "whiter" (brighter) than the HOF is a good one. The HOF sacrificed brilliance to get more fire. The ACAs are cut to give a good balance.


Posted:  7/13/2006 2:54:06 PM
P: 7/13/2006 8:31:29 PM
Dancing Fire
Dancing Fire

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Date: 7/13/2006 12:15:55 PM
Author:Little Star
Diamond Link

I have no complaints with my Classic ACA. It is indeed a beautiful diamond. However, as part of learning, I have some questions here:

1. I noticed that the diamond performs 'worst' under fluorescent lighting. It is still very white and bright but compared to other lightings, it is clear that the sparkle is not as obvious. May I know what diamond specs (crown/pavilion angles, LGF, etc) would give better performance under this lighting condition?

I appreciate comments from the experts here. Thank you in advance.
that is normal under those lighting condition. everybody expects their diamond (24/7) to look like the fireworks on 4th of july   it ain't gonna happen

it is always harder to find a "mind clean" stone than a eye clean stone.

Posted:  7/13/2006 8:31:29 PM
P: 7/13/2006 8:38:02 PM
TravelingGal
TravelingGal

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If you want serious 4th of July, go to Vegas.  Out on the strip, my diamond looked as if it had an electrical malfunction...sparks everywhere!  Fire, fire!!!

_______________________

Travel quote of the week: "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain

Posted:  7/13/2006 8:38:02 PM
P: 7/13/2006 8:38:47 PM
Ellen
Ellen

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John, thank you. But you said it much more succinctly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is also important for the State to inculcate in its subjects an aversion to any 'conspiracy theory of history' for a search for 'conspiracies' means a search for motives and an attribution of responsibility for historical misdeeds."

-Murray N. Rothbard, in The Anatomy of the State



John Swinton [1829-1901] Chief Editorial Writer of the New York Times (Considered "the Dean of his Profession" by his peers), when asked to toast an 'Independent Press' in a gathering at the National Press Club, circa 1880

"There is no such thing in America as an independent press unless it is in the country towns. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dare express an honest opinion. If you express it you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid... for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for doing similar things....

The business of the New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and sell his country and race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same thing, his salary. You know this, and I know it and what foolery to be toasting an 'independent press.' We are tools, and the vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, all are the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."

Posted:  7/13/2006 8:38:47 PM
P: 7/13/2006 8:40:28 PM
eleguin
eleguin

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Date: 7/13/2006 8:38:02 PM
Author: TravelingGal
If you want serious 4th of July, go to Vegas. Out on the strip, my diamond looked as if it had an electrical malfunction...sparks everywhere! Fire, fire!!!

I second that! FI proposed in Vegas so my first day with the ring was under all those lights on the strip

Posted:  7/13/2006 8:40:28 PM
P: 7/13/2006 9:52:38 PM
Little Star
Little Star

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Hi whatmeworry, thank you very much for the link. I didn't know there's such an informative document. The conclusion seems to be that there isn't a single set of proportions that give rise to maximum brilliance and fire.

Posted:  7/13/2006 9:52:38 PM
P: 7/13/2006 10:15:20 PM
Little Star
Little Star

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Hi John, thanks for the clarification. I have a question. If the New Line ACA is likely to be whiter and gives broader fire, then what is the compromise? Surely, there must be some tradeoff. I have read before that it could look darker under certain lighting conditions.

I have actually taken a look at the H&A of the HOF. The hearts are also very nice but seem a bit smaller though. I am not sure whether that could be the reason for the difference in performance.

I know that the ACA is claimed to give unsurpassed visual balance. As such, I am inclined to think that being visually balanced means that the ACA is cut to perform well under a wide variety of lightings but it doesn't mean that it needs to be the cream of the crop under all situations. John, am I correct to say that since there isn't really a set of proportions that can give top performance (and I mean really number 1 here) under all lightings?

Posted:  7/13/2006 10:15:20 PM
P: 7/13/2006 10:24:15 PM
whatmeworry
whatmeworry

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Date: 7/13/2006 9:52:38 PM
Author: Little Star
Hi whatmeworry, thank you very much for the link. I didn't know there's such an informative document. The conclusion seems to be that there isn't a single set of proportions that give rise to maximum brilliance and fire.
Despite the law of physics, the quest for the holy grail goes on....  BTW, I own (well she does now..) an ACA.  I love it.

Posted:  7/13/2006 10:24:15 PM
P: 7/13/2006 11:25:58 PM
JohnQuixote
JohnQuixote

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Date: 7/13/2006 10:15:20 PM
Author: Little Star

Hi John, thanks for the clarification. I have a question. If the New Line ACA is likely to be whiter and gives broader fire, then what is the compromise? Surely, there must be some tradeoff. I have read before that it could look darker under certain lighting conditions.

You're welcome LS.  I'm happy to address your questions.

New Line diamonds have a brighter (not whiter) edge-to-edge look in diffuse light conditions.  You can see why by looking at the amount of red light return in the ideal-scope image; also edge-to-edge.  Brian calls it a 'headlight effect.'  Personally I wouldn't say it's a deal-maker or breaker; just a result of the cutting style.

Indeed there's a trade-off.  With Classic ACA there is symmertical light leakage (contrast leakage) at facet junctions.  Light is broken up quickly in these places, resulting in rapid, dynamic 'pinfire' scintillation.  With New Line ACA light flows across those junctions.  Less breakup of light results in fewer, large & colorful flares or 'broadfire' scintillation.

The warnings about darkness have to do with 'painting;' a style of brillianteering.  Some diamonds may experience a loss of definition with considerable degrees of painting, but ACA are within safe tolerances.



Date: 7/13/2006 10:15:20 PM
Author: Little Star

I have actually taken a look at the H&A of the HOF. The hearts are also very nice but seem a bit smaller though. I am not sure whether that could be the reason for the difference in performance.


What you're saying makes complete sense.  If the HOF hearts were smaller the lower girdle facets were longer which 'tunes' the diamond's performance more to direct lighting - like the spotlighting you described.

Lower Girdles

The distance the lower girdles run from girdle to culet determine how thick, or narrow, the pavilion mains are:  Short lower girdles result in wider pavilion mains.  Long lower girdles result in narrow pavilion mains.  On most commercial round brilliants the lower girdle facet average ranges between 75-85% in height, with the majority at the upper side of this range.



In simple terms, short lower girdles (wide pavilion mains like on the left) enhance performance in indirect/soft lighting conditions.  Long lower girdles (narrow pavilion mains like on the right) enhance performance in very bright lighting conditions.  Of course, this assumes robust major proportions and good optical symmetry as a prerequisite. 

Since you were comparing two very fine H&A diamonds I think we can safely make those assumptions.

Here are simulated pavilion/hearts views for diamonds at 78, 80 and 82% lower girdle height.*  This is the view most focused on for ‘A Cut Above,’ as we feel the lower girdle-pavilion main relationships are the single most important factor for light return and visual balance through a broad range of normal lighting conditions.  As Brian Gavin says, “It’s all in the hearts.”




Here are crown/arrows views:



Would you say the other diamond's hearts & arrows more resembled the images to the right of each graphic?  ...If so, it's very logical that the diamond performed well under the spotlights.  Of course, overall configuration has everything to do with the visual balance acquired.




I know that the ACA is claimed to give unsurpassed visual balance. As such, I am inclined to think that being visually balanced means that the ACA is cut to perform well under a wide variety of lightings but it doesn't mean that it needs to be the cream of the crop under all situations. John, am I correct to say that since there isn't really a set of proportions that can give top performance (and I mean really number 1 here) under all lightings?



This is 100% correct.  You can find a lot of commercial diamonds cut with long lower girdles.  That's because it tunes them to the selling environment; spotlighting.  This doesn't mean diamonds with long lower girdles can't be made so they're balanced performers - it's all dependent on overall configuration.  Alternately there are some diamonds with very short lower girdles that are more balanced to indirect/soft lighting due to their wide pavilion mains. 

* Your ACA is near the middle of this chart (the 78% LG length number given on your AGS report translates to a 79.7% LG height - which is what I used to generate the graphics).

When designing ACA years ago Brian was been mindful that most peoples' lives take place out of the spotlights.  That's why his prescription for lower girdle height & visual balance = 80% LGH or less on these charts (78.4% LGL or less).  My own diamond comparisons take place mostly indoors/in the evenings at parties and social events, in indirect, soft lighting - or sometimes broken up by spotlights in the host's kitchen - or sitting on barstools enjoying a snifter of Lagavulin.  That's just me, but Brian's formula suits it.  Of course diamonds cut like this can still be 'pop rocks in your eyeballs' in direct light too (I shamelessly stole that phrase from Kenny); it really is dependent on overall configuration.

I have to say again it's not just about lower girdles, but you've chosen a subject that is well suited to illustrate how visual balance is Brian's primary design goal for all ACA (rounds, princess and future cuts).

Ok...That's the LONG story (are you sorry you asked?)

The short story you already summed up:  "there isn't really a set of proportions that can give top performance (and I mean really number 1 here) under all lightings."

John

__________________________

John Pollard

Whiteflash Director of Education 2004-2007

Posted:  7/13/2006 11:25:58 PM
P: 7/14/2006 12:56:09 AM
Little Star
Little Star

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Hi John, thank you for the long explanation. No, I am still happy I asked.  It's always good to learn more.

I remembered there were no splits in the clefts of the HOF's hearts. So my guess is that it's LGH could be nearer to 81%. Btw, did you make a mistake in your statements below:

"When designing ACA years ago Brian was been mindful that most peoples' lives take place out of the spotlights.  That's why his prescription for lower girdle height & visual balance = 80% or less on these charts (81.5% LGL)."

I thought LGH (height) are always bigger than LGL (length). So what are the LGL specs for ACAs (both New Line and Classic)?

I am still a bit surprised that just maybe a 1% difference in the LGH can result in an observable difference between ACA and HOF. It is pretty obvious that the HOF has more fire.

I have noticed that the stars percentage for ACAs are in general in the lower 50's. I remembered reading somewhere that the ACA specs are in the range 49-51%. How does this affect brilliance and fire for the same LGH?

Sorry for the many questions. I am still learning.

Posted:  7/14/2006 12:56:09 AM
P: 7/14/2006 12:57:27 AM
^
^

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Date: 7/13/2006 11:25:58 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
(are you sorry you asked?)


I'm glad (s)he asked! I'd like to clarify. LGH = Lower Girdle Height. However, WF Sarin report says "LGirdle Halves", are these synonymous? How do you determine LGL from LGH? Does LGL = LGF? My head is exploding.

My classic ES (if there's such a thing) has 75% LGH according to AGS (RockDoc's Sarin ranges from 74.7 to 76.9%). I assume this means it's "tuned" even more to indirect lighting environments. Granted, performance is a combination of factors. But I was wondering, if 80% is Brian's cut off on the upper side, what's his cutoff on the lower side? Where does indirect performance peak? What spotlighting characteristics are sacrificed the lower you go, is it fire? Is it fair to imagine two linear trends where spotlit and indirect performance cross in an X pattern, and Brian's mark is about the middle of the X while others may put theirs towards the higher spotlit side? I could go on and on, but I'll let you breathe for a moment.



^

Posted:  7/14/2006 12:57:27 AM
P: 7/14/2006 1:02:53 AM
^
^

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Member Since: 5/9/2006
 
P.S. Can you explain why the size of the Lower Girdle facet affects its character in specific light?

Posted:  7/14/2006 1:02:53 AM
P: 7/14/2006 1:41:21 AM
JohnQuixote
JohnQuixote

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Date: 7/14/2006 12:56:09 AM
Author: Little Star
Hi John, thank you for the long explanation. No, I am still happy I asked. It's always good to learn more.

I remembered there were no splits in the clefts of the HOF's hearts. So my guess is that it's LGH could be nearer to 81%. Btw, did you make a mistake in your statements below:

'When designing ACA years ago Brian was been mindful that most peoples' lives take place out of the spotlights. That's why his prescription for lower girdle height & visual balance = 80% or less on these charts (81.5% LGL).'

I thought LGH (height) are always bigger than LGL (length).

Yes!  I was on the fly and calc'd the wrong way; should be 78.4% LGL.  I'll edit that, thanks for the catch.


So what are the LGL specs for ACAs (both New Line and Classic)?

The prescribed range for all ACA is 76%-80% LGH.  Of course we're only as accurate as our measuring devices:  If a diamond meets all other criteria and is at the border it won't be disincluded out of hand; the final decision is always a matter of live, visual inspection by Brian.



I am still a bit surprised that just maybe a 1% difference in the LGH can result in an observable difference between ACA and HOF. It is pretty obvious that the HOF has more fire.

I have noticed that the stars percentage for ACAs are in general in the lower 50's. I remembered reading somewhere that the ACA specs are in the range 49-51%. How does this affect brilliance and fire for the same LGH?

Sorry for the many questions. I am still learning.

A 1% difference, especially with variation possible, shouldn't have an overly-dramatic effect.  Do you know what the table size and crown height were on the other diamond?  It really depends on particulars of the 2 diamonds compared:  Swap both out for another in the brand and you may see different - or similar - results.  Even more significant, change the lighting and results may shift again.

Brian's star prescription ranges from the high 40's to about 55%.  Most are in the low 50s.  The LGH and stars work together intimately, with the lower girdles having prime importance in our opinion ("it's all in the hearts").

No apologies please.  This is a fun subject.  I'm relaxing, while splitting my attention between the computer and a jealous cat.

John

__________________________

John Pollard

Whiteflash Director of Education 2004-2007

Posted:  7/14/2006 1:41:21 AM
P: 7/14/2006 2:30:08 AM
Little Star
Little Star

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Thank you very much, John. I will definitely compare my ACA with more diamonds if I get the opportunity.

My feel about the ACA versus HOF comparison is that the HOF gives more fire but seems less bright than the ACA. I have seen F and G well-cut diamonds before and the difference is usually not that great face-up. But for this case where the HOF is a G and the ACA is a F, the difference is quite obvious. I wonder whether a diamond giving more fire might give the perception that it is less 'white' due to the flashes of fire. Maybe, whatmeworry is correct in saying that the HOF has been cut to maximize fire at the expense of brilliance. Anyway, their name is Hearts On Fire isn't it?

However, to be fair, we are just talking about a comparison of just one ACA versus one HOF and under one lighting condition. It would be interesting to compare their performances under different situations. I wonder whether Whiteflash or anyone has actually done that sort of comparison before.

Thanks to all who have responded. It has been an interesting discussion.

Posted:  7/14/2006 2:30:08 AM
P: 7/14/2006 3:15:54 AM
JohnQuixote
JohnQuixote

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Date: 7/14/2006 12:57:27 AM
Author: ^


Date: 7/13/2006 11:25:58 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
(are you sorry you asked?)

I'm glad (s)he asked! I'd like to clarify. LGH = Lower Girdle Height. However, WF Sarin report says 'LGirdle Halves', are these synonymous? How do you determine LGL from LGH? Does LGL = LGF? My head is exploding.


Caret, could your head be exploding due to lab classes while pursuing an MBP?

Ok - here's a graphic to explain the Lower Girdle Length vs. Lower Girdle Height and where they are used.  Lower Girdle Length is the one most important to consumers, since both AGS and GIA state this measure on their grading reports (GIA reports it rounded to the nearest 5% however).



As you can see, 75% LGL is 76.9 LGH.  It's really not necessary to know both, but if you work in OctoNus DiamCalc  or read studies conducted by AGSL you'll need to be able to do conversions.  I'll post a chart the guys at AGS provided for this purpose next.


Date: 7/14/2006 12:57:27 AM
Author: ^

My classic ES (if there's such a thing) has 75% LGH according to AGS (RockDoc's Sarin ranges from 74.7 to 76.9%). I assume this means it's 'tuned' even more to indirect lighting environments. Granted, performance is a combination of factors. But I was wondering, if 80% is Brian's cut off on the upper side, what's his cutoff on the lower side?

Bill may want to comment here, as I think the Sarin can be programmed to report either.  According to your official AGS report you have 75% LGL.  That translates to 76.9% LGH.  Using LGH the prescription for ACA is 76-80%.  That means your Expert Selection diamond is within typical ACA tolerances.  No surprise since most ES are cut on the same floor as ACA.


Where does indirect performance peak? What spotlighting characteristics are sacrificed the lower you go, is it fire? Is it fair to imagine two linear trends where spotlit and indirect performance cross in an X pattern, and Brian's mark is about the middle of the X while others may put theirs towards the higher spotlit side?


I like that comparison and in that sense yes, Brian designs for the middle of the X.  I think he'd approve of that mental image.  Of course, the range we're discussing is so small it's within a bullseye - and again (sing with me now) - overall performance depends on all of the other configurations.    As for observing characteristics through changing environments, what you see depends on overall parameters (broken record).  Certainly, as the panorama of illumination changes you will note differences.  You said the word sacrifice, others say 'trade-off,' which is ok, but I use balance.  'Sacrifice' sounds like something is lost, but when we're talking about equally premium diamonds tuned differently - a reduction in one aspect sees gain in another.  Does that make sense?


I could go on and on, but I'll let you breathe for a moment.


^



Actually, I need to sleep for a moment!    My cat's already gone to bed.  He's smartish like that.  Pretty good at scrabble too. 

TTYL.

John

__________________________

John Pollard

Whiteflash Director of Education 2004-2007

Posted:  7/14/2006 3:15:54 AM
P: 7/14/2006 3:26:29 AM
JohnQuixote
JohnQuixote

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Date: 7/14/2006 1:02:53 AM
Author: ^
P.S. Can you explain why the size of the Lower Girdle facet affects its character in specific light?

I came back to post the conversion chart and saw this Q.

Quick answers: 

Narrow pavilion mains (long lower girdles) intensify & narrowly focus light return.  Intense begets intense, and direct light comes back powerfully.

Wide pavilion mains (short lower girdles) = more main surface area.  In soft light conditions there is more overall performance as the wide mains give back more ambient light.

Here is the conversion chart.
 

 

John

__________________________

John Pollard

Whiteflash Director of Education 2004-2007

Posted:  7/14/2006 3:26:29 AM
P: 7/14/2006 3:47:48 AM
^
^

Rough Rock
Total Posts: 91
Last Post: 8/15/2009
Member Since: 5/9/2006
 
Diamond IQ Update:
^ + 13 DIQ points.

Thanks JQ.

Now back to the debauchery!

^

Posted:  7/14/2006 3:47:48 AM
P: 7/14/2006 3:50:32 AM
Dancing Fire
Dancing Fire

Ideal Rock
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Date: 7/13/2006 8:38:02 PM
Author: TravelingGal
If you want serious 4th of July, go to Vegas. Out on the strip, my diamond looked as if it had an electrical malfunction...sparks everywhere! Fire, fire!!!
that sounds more like my wallet,when i go to Vegas.

it is always harder to find a "mind clean" stone than a eye clean stone.

Posted:  7/14/2006 3:50:32 AM
P: 7/14/2006 9:54:51 AM
Sundial
Sundial

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This is an interesting discussion.  My three stone ring has Hearts on Fire branded diamonds and I have a bracelet from Whiteflash with 3 carats of ACA diamonds.  The diamonds are all close in color, but obviously there is a size difference.  However to me they all look exactly the same and they exhibit a tremendous amount of fire!

Posted:  7/14/2006 9:54:51 AM
P: 7/14/2006 10:58:41 AM
Little Star
Little Star

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Member Since: 5/5/2006
 
That's interesting, Sundial. I will definitely find another chance to do the comparison.

I have searched the entire forum for ACA vs HOF comparisons. Most people said that their ACAs are comparable to HOFs. My limited investigations show that all such ACAs happen to be New Line ACAs. Do your ACAs belong to the New Line series as well?

I wonder whether HOFs are also cut like Eightstars and New Line ACAs to give edge-to-edge light return although I doubt it. But it does seem strange that all the people who mentioned that their ACAs are comparable to HOFs own New Line ACAs.

Posted:  7/14/2006 10:58:41 AM
P: 7/14/2006 11:13:21 AM
Wink
Wink

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Date: 7/14/2006 10:58:41 AM
Author: Little Star

I wonder whether HOFs are also cut like Eightstars and New Line ACAs to give edge-to-edge light return although I doubt it.



Definitely not.

Wink

Wink Jones
GG
Winfield's/High Performance Diamonds

Posted:  7/14/2006 11:13:21 AM
P: 7/14/2006 12:20:29 PM
JohnQuixote
JohnQuixote

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Date: 7/14/2006 2:30:08 AM
Author: Little Star

However, to be fair, we are just talking about a comparison of just one ACA versus one HOF and under one lighting condition. It would be interesting to compare their performances under different situations. I wonder whether Whiteflash or anyone has actually done that sort of comparison before.

From memory, people who own both brands have posted on the subject, though I don't recall the breadth of coverage.  Maybe some of our local forum 'archive specialists' recall a thread or two that goes into detail in a few lighting conditions?


Date: 7/14/2006 10:58:41 AM
Author: Little Star
That's interesting, Sundial. I will definitely find another chance to do the comparison.

I have searched the entire forum for ACA vs HOF comparisons. Most people said that their ACAs are comparable to HOFs. My limited investigations show that all such ACAs happen to be New Line ACAs.

Ok.  Did a little homework for you.  I believe Aljdewey, Kinger & Yellowfan are ACA Classic owners who have done such comparisons.  Perhaps Youngster & T-Rex too? (I don't recall if they are classic or New Line owners).  A search showed Dhog, QueenMum, LordSummerisle, Mara and Shay37 as some of the New Line owners who, it appears, have compared.  I know Kaleigh has viewed a considerable amount of jewelry in top-end chains - not sure about HOF though - her pendant diamond is ACA New Line.  Any of these people could contribute on this subject.

John

__________________________

John Pollard

Whiteflash Director of Education 2004-2007

Posted:  7/14/2006 12:20:29 PM
P: 7/14/2006 12:57:40 PM
Rhino
Rhino

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Hi whatmeworry,

Just reading through this thread and this comment caught my attention...


Date: 7/13/2006 2:54:06 PM
Author: whatmeworry

This is from GIA's study on Fire:

'Across commercial ranges, pavilion angle, lower-girdle facet length, and table size have the largest effect.'

Here's the Link: http://www.gia.edu/pdfs/Fall_2001_Cut.pdf They have some nice graphs that show how their fire metric changes as you change different variables.

However if you want more fire (table smaller, pav angle smaller, etc.), you will be sacrificing brightness. You can't have it all So I think your observation that your ACA is 'whiter' (brighter) than the HOF is a good one. The HOF sacrificed brilliance to get more fire. The ACAs are cut to give a good balance.



Who told you you have to sacrifice brightness for fire or vice versa? 

Rhino
Good Old Gold

Posted:  7/14/2006 12:57:40 PM
P: 7/14/2006 1:00:22 PM
Rhino
Rhino

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Date: 7/13/2006 8:31:29 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 7/13/2006 12:15:55 PM
Author:Little Star
Diamond Link

I have no complaints with my Classic ACA. It is indeed a beautiful diamond. However, as part of learning, I have some questions here:

1. I noticed that the diamond performs 'worst' under fluorescent lighting. It is still very white and bright but compared to other lightings, it is clear that the sparkle is not as obvious. May I know what diamond specs (crown/pavilion angles, LGF, etc) would give better performance under this lighting condition?

I appreciate comments from the experts here. Thank you in advance.
that is normal under those lighting condition. everybody expects their diamond (24/7) to look like the fireworks on 4th of july it ain't gonna happen

LOL... there's perhaps an even worse lighting environment.  Certain indoor halogen lights that emit a yellow cast on stones make them appear dark and lifeless.  Even among some of the finest cuts.

Rhino
Good Old Gold

Posted:  7/14/2006 1:00:22 PM
P: 7/14/2006 1:01:47 PM
Rhino
Rhino

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Date: 7/13/2006 12:46:33 PM
Author: Ellen
Hi LS.

As to your first question, I know of no one who has ever had their diamond sparkle under fluorescent lighting like in an office. It just doesn't do anything for the diamond.

However, open fluorescent lighting (no cover over the bulbs)set very high in certain stores is a different story. The look will make you giddy. Tower records is supposed to have them. I've found them in certain grocery stores, and a few retail stores. Try looking for them!

As for the HOF showing more fire, it's probably just due it's specific cut. It is said that a higher crown angle produces more fire. However, my crown angle is 34, and my diamond gives off more fire than white light. So, who knows...

I would say, just enjoy your diamond, it's looks like you have a real beauty there.

Excellent clarification Ellen.  The type of fluorescent lighting makes a HUGE difference.  I love the Tower Records option best.   Even better than typical diffused office lighting.

Rhino
Good Old Gold

Posted:  7/14/2006 1:01:47 PM
P: 7/14/2006 1:14:07 PM
Rhino
Rhino

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Date: 7/13/2006 10:15:20 PM
Author: Little Star
Hi John, thanks for the clarification. I have a question. If the New Line ACA is likely to be whiter and gives broader fire, then what is the compromise? Surely, there must be some tradeoff. I have read before that it could look darker under certain lighting conditions.

I have actually taken a look at the H&A of the HOF. The hearts are also very nice but seem a bit smaller though. I am not sure whether that could be the reason for the difference in performance.

I know that the ACA is claimed to give unsurpassed visual balance. As such, I am inclined to think that being visually balanced means that the ACA is cut to perform well under a wide variety of lightings but it doesn't mean that it needs to be the cream of the crop under all situations. John, am I correct to say that since there isn't really a set of proportions that can give top performance (and I mean really number 1 here) under all lightings?

Hi Littlestar,

First off ... congrats!!!

Among 57 facet round brilliant cuts, altering minor facet measurements among the lower girdles and stars can impact face up appearance in your diffuse lighting environments but not as much as it will in direct lighting where fire is observed. 

We've found the biggest impact on face up appearance in diffuse lighting occurs when you alter the angles of the girdle facets to what GIA refers to as painting or digging.  Those facets being the angle relationships between upper girdles and lower girdles.  Our opinion and that of many of our observers (as well as the observers in GIA's study) is when you alter those facets it makes the stones appear darker.  Hence they do not make the GIA Ex grade.  Your stone does not display this feature so no worries.

In direct lighting altering the lower girdles and stars will impact the amount of and mix of both broad fire and pin fire flashes you see come out of the stone and this can boil down to personal preferences as to which appeals more to your eye.  I see John has posted some charts on this but in general (and I'm sure this has probably been mentioned), shorter lower girdle facet length place more of an emphasis on broadfire while longer lower girdles contribute to more of a mix of both broadfire and pinfire.  We've published a video on the subject called "The Nature of Scintillation" which demonstrates these differences in appearance among ideal cuts you might find interesting.

Peace,

Rhino
Good Old Gold

Posted:  7/14/2006 1:14:07 PM
P: 7/14/2006 2:12:31 PM
Rhino
Rhino

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Date: 7/14/2006 12:57:40 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi whatmeworry,

Just reading through this thread and this comment caught my attention...



Date: 7/13/2006 2:54:06 PM
Author: whatmeworry

This is from GIA's study on Fire:

'Across commercial ranges, pavilion angle, lower-girdle facet length, and table size have the largest effect.'

Here's the Link: http://www.gia.edu/pdfs/Fall_2001_Cut.pdf They have some nice graphs that show how their fire metric changes as you change different variables.

However if you want more fire (table smaller, pav angle smaller, etc.), you will be sacrificing brightness. You can't have it all So I think your observation that your ACA is 'whiter' (brighter) than the HOF is a good one. The HOF sacrificed brilliance to get more fire. The ACAs are cut to give a good balance.



Who told you you have to sacrifice brightness for fire or vice versa?

Ok ... reading further I realize where you got this.  I am of a different conviction.  Yes there are certainly proportion combinations in which diamonds will have very good brightness yet lack fire and there are other proportion combinations that will yield great fire but lack brightness but there are also diamonds which will exhibit the best of both worlds without having to sacrifice anything in way of optical performance.

Peace,

Rhino
Good Old Gold

Posted:  7/14/2006 2:12:31 PM
P: 7/14/2006 9:54:10 PM
dhog
dhog

Cut Rock
Total Posts: 159
Last Post: 12/24/2008
Member Since: 1/15/2006
 
ACA'S are every bit as good or better than a HOF in my opinion without the price tag

we own 5 and will be adding more to our collection at a later date.

at longer viewing distances the ACA'S look better to me as in alot more
bold flash.

I could be wrong but I think certain polishing techniques make
more facets appear as 1 giving it a larger look and a 3D effect.

cattlemens, staples, office depot, winco, super wally worlds, and many
wine tasting rooms have good lights.

good luck with your ACA

the following is my comparison

http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=38689&forumID=3&catID=&search=1&searchstring=

Posted:  7/14/2006 9:54:10 PM

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