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»  » ASET photos and discussion
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| Pages: 1 of 3: [1] 2 3 > |
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ASET photos and discussion |
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| P: 1/8/2006 8:01:43 PM | |
Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
I have been experimenting, finally, with taking pictures through the desk top version of the ASET tool. While I have seen a few decent photos from the hand held version I have not been able to take any that I thought worthy, and have not had good results with the desk top until after extensive conversations with Jim Caudill at the American Gem Society Laboratory. Pre Christmas preparation season arrived about the time I might have liked to have started experimenting and that was that. Finally, with the use of a good macro lense and by removing the lense from the top of the desktop unit I was able to focus on more than just the inside 90% of the stone so I finally have a picture that shows the entire image. (As a side note, I had to remove my glasses to see the entire image until Jim Caudill sent me a different lense for the top of the desk top model. Those without glasses could see it perfectly and I doubt it was realized at first how awkward it was for us who use glasses to see the whole image.) When I tried using lights on my photo stand the image was horribly blown out, and by experimenting under daylight I got the first image. The second, brighter image was taken by putting the photo stand on my desk and using 4100 kelvin Halogen lighting in 24 and 17 degree spots from my ceiling. I am using an I-SI2 EightStar to take any questions about the quality of cut from the equation. You can however see the inclusions if you look closely. I welcome comments from any of you who have the device as to why I might be getting the different intensity of color on the under the table portion of the diamond and the outside the table portion. When I use the same setup on one of the diamonds from Pual-Antwerp's Cut by Infinity brand I see a different distribution of brightness of colors. In the charts from AGS there is never a variance in the color, red is red, green is green, etc. Any ideas? Comments on interpretation of the images, causes of the different intensity of colors, and tips on how to get better images are welcomed! Wink 
Wink Jones GG Winfield's/High Performance Diamonds |
| Posted: 1/8/2006 8:01:43 PM | |
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There are 62 replies to this message. There are 30 replies on this page. |
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| P: 1/8/2006 8:02:38 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Here is photo #2 Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/8/2006 8:02:38 PM | |
| P: 1/8/2006 8:03:51 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
And finally, photo #3. If anyone knows how to put them all side by side it would be appreciated. Wink  Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/8/2006 8:03:51 PM | |
| P: 1/8/2006 8:11:13 PM | |
JohnQuixote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,212 Last Post: 5/24/2008 Member Since: 9/9/2004 |
If anyone knows how to put them all side by side it would be appreciated. Wink  John |
| Posted: 1/8/2006 8:11:13 PM | |
| P: 1/8/2006 8:57:34 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Thanks John, and would you also have some comments for this poor supplicant??? Wink Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/8/2006 8:57:34 PM | |
| P: 1/8/2006 9:17:33 PM | |
Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,581 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000 |
we are finding Neil's system with the hand held to be very simple. But frankly there seems to be little advantage for ASET over ideal-scope / red reflectors for round diamonds. The ASET comes into its own in fancy shapes however. And we are working on a video tutorial to help with that. Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT |
| Posted: 1/8/2006 9:17:33 PM | |
| P: 1/8/2006 9:19:33 PM | |
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JohnQuixote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,212 Last Post: 5/24/2008 Member Since: 9/9/2004 |
Date: 1/8/2006 8:57:34 PM Author: Wink Thanks John, and would you also have some comments for this poor supplicant??? Wink I have been running pell mell today and have promises to keep (some non work-related), but I have this on the to-do list Wink. Oh, and I think you meant to type superman, not supplicant, right? 
John |
| Posted: 1/8/2006 9:19:33 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 5:27:06 AM | |
Paul-Antwerp Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,908 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/3/2002 |
Date: 1/8/2006 9:17:33 PM You are right, Garry.Author: Garry H (Cut Nut) we are finding Neil's system with the hand held to be very simple. But frankly there seems to be little advantage for ASET over ideal-scope / red reflectors for round diamonds. The ASET comes into its own in fancy shapes however. And we are working on a video tutorial to help with that. But I think that Wink is mainly showing rounds, since it will help him improve his photographic set-up. Later on, he has amazing fancy shapes to be playing with. Live long, Paul Slegers |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 5:27:06 AM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 5:35:05 AM | |
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Quick Q: where did the inclusions go in the last picture? Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 5:35:05 AM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 5:59:08 AM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Date: 1/9/2006 5:35:05 AM Author: valeria101 Quick Q: where did the inclusions go in the last picture? The last picture is a G-VS2 diamond. H&A cut. I am interested in an interpretation of the different color saturations of the H&A vs the EightStar cuts, I am not at all sure I agree with Gary that the ASET has little use for rounds different from the red reflectors. I think there is much information here, but I am not sure what it is. I am also interested in how to get a better picture, regardless of the shapes. Wink Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 5:59:08 AM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:51:11 AM | |
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Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,581 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000 |
Wink these are not high resolution - they were the first I ever took with the hand held first sample we recieved from my manufacturer. I used my canon 4meg ixus $350 camera. Arthur is better at it now and is using the camera on its back with the scope sitting on top of the lens and a piece of perspex on top. We use a black pen cap for the darkened shots. We will release some soon I hope. I think the shots are as good as yours. Perhaps there needs to be a device specially designed for photography.  Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:51:11 AM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 7:30:59 AM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
May I add a couple of questions to the list? Date: 1/9/2006 5:59:08 AM Author: Wink I am interested in an interpretation of the different color saturation of the H&A vs the EightStar cuts... Is there any need for one? As far as I understand, the point of these colored reflector tools is to replace the imprecise quantitative evaluation of color saturation (subject to lighting variations etc.) with a clear cut one based on the clear difference between different color zones. E.g. between the IS and ASET, some hard to distinguish shades of light to intense red were translated into clearer cut red and green zones... Is this wrong? If not... why would color intensity of ASET colors still matter? I am not at all sure I agree with Gary that the ASET has little use for rounds different from the red reflectors. I think there is much information here, but I am not sure what it is. Somewhat related, may I ask if there can be some interpretation relating the green patches (reflection at lower angles) with observed fire? I am also interested in how to get a better picture, regardless of the shapes. Those are quite nice to begin with, as far as I can tell.  In those three - the painting on 8* has never been that visible in previous types of reflection images (H&A viewer and IS - perhaps noticeable, but it becomes quite obvious under ASET)  Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 7:30:59 AM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 8:33:44 AM | |
denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,614 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004 |
Wink, These are pretty good. The different color saturation under the crown and the table of the same stone is caused by the light reflection between the top surface of the piece of glass and the surface of the stone. You see it on any picture where there is a piece of glass, plastic or whatever between the stone and the camera. I highly suspect that there is a truncation effect on the green caused by the inside surface of the glass as well. Here's a few thoughts from someone who so far has been too cheap to buy the version of the tool you're using but who has a moderate amount of experience with these things (I'm holding out for version 2): The color balance and intensity of the original light source has a big effect on how pretty the colors are. Brighter isn't always better. Neil Beaty  There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile. |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 8:33:44 AM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 12:35:11 PM | |
oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,964 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
David S. Atlas |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 12:35:11 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 2:17:44 PM | |
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Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,581 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000 |
Good advice Neil. You seem to be ahead of the pack - are you still using cling wrap? We think thin perspex is ok. The AGS charts are all done with DiamCalc. Dave ASET can only ever be subjective unless you use a computer based pixel counter and look at a rotated stone image like AGS do. Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 2:17:44 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 2:25:07 PM | |
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JohnQuixote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,212 Last Post: 5/24/2008 Member Since: 9/9/2004 |
Date: 1/8/2006 8:57:34 PM Author: Wink Thanks John, and would you also have some comments for this poor supplicant??? Wink Val noted the main observation I would make: Brillianteering approaches are distinct. Easy to see if the UGs were run from star to girdle. The variance in angles (or in the 8*'s case, lack of it) between crown, star and UG facets is engaging to look at with the multiple color coding. By the way, Wink, you established a nice focal depth with these images. Bravo. Here is a page with more painted examples from Bill - the conversation dovetails... Well, actually it degenerates some. The hand-held setup Neil has arrived at (and Garry's photos, which are quite nice too) works well, but methinks those would be hard to manage vis a vis standardization. Neil still gets my vote for handyman of the century with this stuff. Wink, I feel your pain on the lighting intensity, diffusing, etc. Another issue that will become a concern at some point is the desktop ASET's stage: As diamond size increases the girdle moves farther away from the glass platform and at some point the color coding of the angular paths is going to be compromised. AGS told me sometime ago there may be different stages forthcoming - which leads me to believe all of us who bought Desktop ASET version 1.0 may have just paid for the R&D of version 2.0. Ain't we generous?
John |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 2:25:07 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 2:25:33 PM | |
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oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,964 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
Well, then we agree. Great. Now, when appraisal clients want a definitive ASET result, the real thing to tell them is that the ASET shows an excellent performing diamond, when that happens to be the case, but we can't tell them which one of two or three stones is "best" from the use of an ASET scope. I really want consumers to grasp the reality of what the tool can do and what it cannot do. It is very useful, but it is not going to be the tool to compare quite similar stones with as it remains quite subjective and personal as to which diamond is the most beautiful. David S. Atlas |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 2:25:33 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 2:32:36 PM | |
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JohnQuixote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,212 Last Post: 5/24/2008 Member Since: 9/9/2004 |
Date: 1/9/2006 2:25:33 PM Author: oldminer Well, then we agree. Great. Now, when appraisal clients want a definitive ASET result, the real thing to tell them is that the ASET shows an excellent performing diamond, when that happens to be the case, but we can't tell them which one of two or three stones is 'best' from the use of an ASET scope. I really want consumers to grasp the reality of what the tool can do and what it cannot do. It is very useful, but it is not going to be the tool to compare quite similar stones with as it remains quite subjective and personal as to which diamond is the most beautiful. No argument here. I am intrigued with the possibility of predicting performance qualities (especially in fancies) and like the enhanced look at contruction ASET offers, but I think your statement that it can show an 'excellent performing diamond' - leaving the rest up to direct observation and personal taste is right on. John |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 2:32:36 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 4:02:18 PM | |
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Paul-Antwerp Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,908 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/3/2002 |
Date: 1/9/2006 2:32:36 PM Author: JohnQuixote Date: 1/9/2006 2:25:33 PM Author: oldminer Well, then we agree. Great. Now, when appraisal clients want a definitive ASET result, the real thing to tell them is that the ASET shows an excellent performing diamond, when that happens to be the case, but we can't tell them which one of two or three stones is 'best' from the use of an ASET scope. I really want consumers to grasp the reality of what the tool can do and what it cannot do. It is very useful, but it is not going to be the tool to compare quite similar stones with as it remains quite subjective and personal as to which diamond is the most beautiful. No argument here. I am intrigued with the possibility of predicting performance qualities (especially in fancies) and like the enhanced look at contruction ASET offers, but I think your statement that it can show an 'excellent performing diamond' - leaving the rest up to direct observation and personal taste is right on. I beg to disagree. In this forum, we constantly see professionals and especially consumers, commenting on the slightest difference between, very often, three super-ideal rounds. Even within the same brand, one stone is often prefered to another, and, most often, the idealscope-image is the most important factor in this choice. Now, an ASET-image is slightly more complicated, but in fancy shapes, we are also talking about clearly greater differences in cut-quality than in rounds. Here, the main question right now, is not whether a stone is AGS-1 or 0, but whether it is AGS-4 or AGS1. I consider it very weird that most people here consider themselves capable of chosing the very best of 3 super-ideal-cut rounds, cut by the same company, with the same goal, while they would not be able to make a difference between 2 entirely different looking fancy shapes. It reminds me of the lyrics of a song by the Belgian group K's Choice: 'When your president's an actor, something is wrong' Live long, Paul Slegers |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 4:02:18 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 4:07:30 PM | |
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Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,581 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000 |
Date: 1/9/2006 4:02:18 PM I agree with Paul - it is the fancies where this toool is useful - but to add to the problem Paul points to - to properly anaylyse them we will need movie ASET's with the stones being rotated.Author: Paul-Antwerp I beg to disagree. In this forum, we constantly see professionals and especially consumers, commenting on the slightest difference between, very often, three super-ideal rounds. Even within the same brand, one stone is often prefered to another, and, most often, the idealscope-image is the most important factor in this choice. Now, an ASET-image is slightly more complicated, but in fancy shapes, we are also talking about clearly greater differences in cut-quality than in rounds. Here, the main question right now, is not whether a stone is AGS-1 or 0, but whether it is AGS-4 or AGS1. I consider it very weird that most people here consider themselves capable of chosing the very best of 3 super-ideal-cut rounds, cut by the same company, with the same goal, while they would not be able to make a difference between 2 entirely different looking fancy shapes. Live long, Now that is not going to be easy - but just as well that Pricescope now supports video streaming Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 4:07:30 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 4:48:20 PM | |
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JohnQuixote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,212 Last Post: 5/24/2008 Member Since: 9/9/2004 |
Date: 1/9/2006 4:02:18 PM Author: Paul-Antwerp Date: 1/9/2006 2:32:36 PM Author: JohnQuixote No argument here. I am intrigued with the possibility of predicting performance qualities (especially in fancies) and like the enhanced look at contruction ASET offers, but I think your statement that it can show an 'excellent performing diamond' - leaving the rest up to direct observation and personal taste is right on. I beg to disagree. In this forum, we constantly see professionals and especially consumers, commenting on the slightest difference between, very often, three super-ideal rounds. Even within the same brand, one stone is often prefered to another, and, most often, the idealscope-image is the most important factor in this choice. Now, an ASET-image is slightly more complicated, but in fancy shapes, we are also talking about clearly greater differences in cut-quality than in rounds. Here, the main question right now, is not whether a stone is AGS-1 or 0, but whether it is AGS-4 or AGS1. I consider it very weird that most people here consider themselves capable of chosing the very best of 3 super-ideal-cut rounds, cut by the same company, with the same goal, while they would not be able to make a difference between 2 entirely different looking fancy shapes. It reminds me of the lyrics of a song by the Belgian group K's Choice: 'When your president's an actor, something is wrong' Live long, Hey Paul, John |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 4:48:20 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 4:57:20 PM | |
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Paul-Antwerp Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,908 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/3/2002 |
Hey John, Just re-read mine and previous posts, and it seems that I was mis-interpreting both your and Oldminer's posts. Probably, I was too eager for a round of disagreements, after the peace of the Christmas-period. Damn, I have to try and pick a fight elsewhere. Live long, Paul Slegers |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 4:57:20 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 5:24:08 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Date: 1/9/2006 4:48:20 PM Author: JohnQuixote
Since the ASET is also meant for non-experts to understand and there's no 'user guide' for it around here yet, I hope this is not interrupting serious discussion. From my side of the screen, the reflector images do not help much communicating personal preferences aside levels of quality. How many times did a buyer come to you asking for a certain IS look (not level of performance) ? It seems to take allot of technical insight, imagination and experience to describe personal preferences in ASET (or IS) terms. The main difficulty may come from the obvious fact that these reflector images don't give anything to choose - they have no aesthetic value of their own and if they do, how difficult is to relate that to predictable aesthetic features of the object they describe? Just a thought...  Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 5:24:08 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:12:26 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Date: 1/9/2006 5:24:08 PM Author: valeria101 Since the ASET is also meant for non-experts to understand and there's no 'user guide' for it around here yet, I hope this is not interrupting serious discussion. From my side of the screen, the reflector images do not help much communicating personal preferences aside levels of quality. How many times did a buyer come to you asking for a certain IS look (not level of performance) ? It seems to take allot of technical insight, imagination and experience to describe personal preferences in ASET (or IS) terms. The main difficulty may come from the obvious fact that these reflector images don't give anything to choose - they have no aesthetic value of their own and if they do, how difficult is to relate that to predictable aesthetic features of the object they describe? Just a thought... I am not sure I agree with you. Here is one of the few non H&A cut stones that I own, I use it just to show my clients how excremental a diamond can look. It looks pretty obviously bad in the ASET too. It only takes a glance to know that this stone is NOT going to look good, and it also tells you in a glance, WHY Wink  Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:12:26 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:19:33 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Just because I know all of the other experts know this I will explain it without making a quiz, although that might be more fun... There is some good red from the center of the stone, but no contrast so that the stone actually looks less brilliant that it is. Most of the light coming from the stone is the less brilliant ambiant light gathered from 0 - 45 degrees (represented by green light) and the contrast pattern that should be given by the head shadow is in fact poorly placed so as to look dark rather than to provide the on/off sparkle of a well cut diamond. In truth this is a lifeless piece of crystallized carbon that I show to people here at the end of my cut explaination and although I have it marked NOT FOR SALE, I really need not bother, I could not sell it if I wanted to after people have seen a well cut diamond in comparrison. Here is a slide from the AGS presentation that explains this a little better than I have. Wink  Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:19:33 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:21:01 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Date: 1/9/2006 6:12:26 PM Author: Wink I am not sure I agree with you. Here is one of the few non H&A cut stones that I own, I use it just to show my clients how excremental a diamond can look. It looks pretty obviously bad in the ASET too. My post wasn't too clear... I picked an idea from way up the thread without mention: that that choices based on taste among goods of similar quality are difficult via ASET (or reflector tools in general). It only takes a glance to know that this stone is NOT going to look good, and it also tells you in a glance, WHY Fair enough  ... Gee! Can't imagine how this would be anywhere comparable quality with those you have posted earlier - maybe culet up!Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:21:01 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:21:36 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Oops, this one should have been first... Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:21:36 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:23:00 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Date: 1/9/2006 6:21:01 PM Author: valeria101 Date: 1/9/2006 6:12:26 PM Author: Wink I am not sure I agree with you. Here is one of the few non H&A cut stones that I own, I use it just to show my clients how excremental a diamond can look. It looks pretty obviously bad in the ASET too. My post wasn't too clear... I picked an idea from way up the thread without mention: that that choices based on taste among goods of similar quality are difficult via ASET (or reflector tools in general). It only takes a glance to know that this stone is NOT going to look good, and it also tells you in a glance, WHY Fair enough ... Gee! Can't imagine how this would be anywhere comparable quality with those you have posted earlier - maybe culet up!LOL! It probably would look better culet up! Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:23:00 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:32:02 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
For an example of the differences available in the various cuts, here are two gorgeous AGS 0 cut grade princess cuts. While both images are quite different they both have some nice red, some great contrast and unlike the rounds, they gather more light from the ambient light than would be acceptable for an AGS 0 round. Wink  Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:32:02 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:33:27 PM | |
belle Ideal Rock Total Posts: 10,287 Last Post: 4/3/2008 Member Since: 11/19/2004 |
awesome pics wink well done 
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| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:33:27 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2006 6:37:07 PM | |
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Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,032 Last Post: 11/17/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
Thanks! I figured out from John Quixote's pic that to post two pics at one time, just combine them into one. After all this time on PS, you would think I had figured that out by now... Wink Wink Jones |
| Posted: 1/9/2006 6:37:07 PM | |
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