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»  » blue sapphire advice needed
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blue sapphire advice needed |
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| P: 9/26/2005 9:55:24 PM | |
cherokee Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 10/3/2005 Member Since: 9/26/2005 |
In searching for the "perfect" sapphire, i have found the following stone: heated "ceylon type" 1.7 carat, emerald cut, color grade: 3.5/90 clarity: FL cut: good, depth 73%, average brilliancy 60% finish: good (5) TQIR: very good/good AGL certified as above. With respect to these characterisitcs, what should I expect the fair market price of a similar stone to be? obviously i expect a flawless stone would carry somewhat of a premium, but this stone is heated. This stone would be set in an engagment ring. I appreciate all comments. cherokee |
| Posted: 9/26/2005 9:55:24 PM | |
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There are 25 replies to this message. There are 25 replies on this page. |
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| P: 9/26/2005 10:01:03 PM | |
MINE!! Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,287 Last Post: 1/22/2007 Member Since: 2/25/2005 |
Welcome Cherokee!! I love the fact that you are creating a colored gemstone E-ring. I have a question for your question. Have you seen this stone?
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| Posted: 9/26/2005 10:01:03 PM | |
| P: 9/26/2005 10:05:34 PM | |
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cherokee Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 10/3/2005 Member Since: 9/26/2005 |
i have seen this stone. it is very nice, but yet i have had a hard time finding comparables. c
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| Posted: 9/26/2005 10:05:34 PM | |
| P: 9/26/2005 10:43:36 PM | |
widget Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,254 Last Post: 12/20/2008 Member Since: 11/12/2004 |
Hi, Cherokee...Welcome! Oooh, I wish I could see a picture of this gemstone! I LOVE emerald cut sapphires! I was going to suggest you do some price comparing at www.cherrypicked.com and www.naturalsapphirecompany.com , but then I noticed the stone you are considering is heat treated. I suppose it would be fair to expect it to cost less per carat than certified unheated ones, unless it's off the wall sensational... I thought it was a little surprising that your stone has an AGL cert, given that it is heat treated. These full reports are rather expensive, and my guess is that it's existence increases the cost of the gem...even though its "value" is debatable since the stone is heat treated. Just a thought... Where did you find it? widget
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| Posted: 9/26/2005 10:43:36 PM | |
| P: 9/26/2005 10:44:18 PM | |
MJO Ideal Rock Total Posts: 661 Last Post: 3/28/2008 Member Since: 11/3/2004 |
Date: 9/26/2005 10:05:34 PM Hello Cherokee,Author: cherokee i have seen this stone. it is very nice, but yet i have had a hard time finding comparables. c I have been seeing top 1-2ct heated blue Ceylon oval stones from $650-$800/ct.
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| Posted: 9/26/2005 10:44:18 PM | |
| P: 9/26/2005 11:00:11 PM | |
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cherokee Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 10/3/2005 Member Since: 9/26/2005 |
I have been searching for my ideal emerald cut sapphire for quite some time. This stone has the color and size i am looking for. I found it at a local "upscale" jewelry store. The stone is currently priced to absorb the cost of certification, and I understand that stones from brick & mortar stores may cost slightly more than internet prices. However i would love to hear opinions on what the community considers a "fair" price. I realize i am trying to apply objective criteria to a relatively subjective question. I'm anal like that. thanks again cherokee
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| Posted: 9/26/2005 11:00:11 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 10:54:49 AM | |
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MJO Ideal Rock Total Posts: 661 Last Post: 3/28/2008 Member Since: 11/3/2004 |
Hello Cherokee, First an emerald cut is not ussual for a sapphire so it should be a slight premium. The thing I see as not that great on the stone the tone is dark at 90. The ideal would be 75 - 80 according to what I have read. I have an unheated Burma stone like this that emerald cut and 90 tone that seems dark to me.
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| Posted: 9/27/2005 10:54:49 AM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 11:33:22 AM | |
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
It definitely is not the heat that is a problem here and the lack of visible inclusions doesn't help a ton - the thing is dark, and there is nothing to do about that. Even heating didn't. The presence of sophisiticated color grading on a lab report does not add value. Better color would surely make it allot more respectable, even if still heated and with some reasonable amount of inclusions in there. Well, just IMO. Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 9/27/2005 11:33:22 AM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 12:30:16 PM | |
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cherokee Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 10/3/2005 Member Since: 9/26/2005 |
thanks for the input. i too realized that 3.5/90 was on the dark side, yet as far as appearance is concerned it is not what i would call an indigo or ink blue. in person it is a beautiful stone,i am actually comfortable with the color. Am i correct in assuming the upper limit for this stone would be around $1200/carat? cherokee
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| Posted: 9/27/2005 12:30:16 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 12:32:12 PM | |
Bertrand Ideal Rock Total Posts: 622 Last Post: 8/17/2009 Member Since: 7/13/2004 |
Date: 9/27/2005 11:33:22 AM Author: valeria101 The presence of sophisiticated color grading on a lab report does not add value. Well, maybe not a huge value depending on the size and quality of the sapphire - but it does at value. Two equal sapphires - the one with a well known/respected lab grading report can command a higher price and will probably sell quicker. Also... some information on sapphire prices and....some info on AGL sapphire grading I think places like cherry and natural are good ways to check out approximate pricing on top quality sapphires (mostly unheated from these sources). Unheated runs in the range of 30-40 percent higher than heated of equal quality. Expect to pay 20% (or more) to get them from high end B&M retail stores vs the net. --------------------------- |
| Posted: 9/27/2005 12:32:12 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 12:55:01 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Date: 9/27/2005 12:32:12 PM Author: Bertrand Date: 9/27/2005 11:33:22 AM Author: valeria101 The presence of sophisiticated color grading on a lab report does not add value. Two equal sapphires - the one with a well known/respected lab grading report can command a higher price and will probably sell quicker. Yeas, guess so... but I am not likely to be selling anything. How about added value on the other side of the counter. There is the aid to trust, of course, but, in this case, what refference is out there for prices (not to mention looks) of sapphires of this color grade to inform of anything? This is not a rhetoric question - I just do not know. I do not know what the grade is about - $1200/carat sounds generous, especially if the emerald shape is not totally a must. Speaking of refference for the color grades and prices, how about this color:  called 'intense' by the seller and medium-dark tone by my computer screen  (= the lousiest grading device!  ) It is listing B454 at Walter Arnstein's web outlet and less than $800/ct uheated. I would not be looking for bargains in this shop to begin with. If that emerald cut is shallow cut (it may be the case that the stone was not made into a more tradional shape because it couldn't have, or just to lighten up the overly dark material), than paying a premium for the shape deserves a second thought, IMO. These are good, if the price is good (e.g. listing B420 of the same shop was aparently discounted for the shallow cut - other stones at the same seller show this too). Oh, and there was one more thing... speaking of grades, it is unusual to find a colored gem called 'flawless' for good reason. It may be 'eye clean' or better than eye clean or somehting. This is not my idea, it has something with GIA's grades that basically do not allow 'flawless'. At least some sellers would refrain from using the word at all. So... the 'perfect sapphire' is probably not going to be called 'flawless', unless it is in a metaphoric way. As far as I know  Perhaps I should explain why there are multiple examples from the same shop above: well, they have a relatively large, search-saving display online and quite some reputation. There's allot more out there, just as good that I just do not know of or didn't look up now. These were meant to make a point about grading. Hope you don't mind this post, Bertrand. If it sounds rude, I'll be happy to improve on that. Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 9/27/2005 12:55:01 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 3:19:42 PM | |
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MJO Ideal Rock Total Posts: 661 Last Post: 3/28/2008 Member Since: 11/3/2004 |
Date: 9/27/2005 12:30:16 PM Hi Cherokee,Author: cherokee thanks for the input. i too realized that 3.5/90 was on the dark side, yet as far as appearance is concerned it is not what i would call an indigo or ink blue. in person it is a beautiful stone,i am actually comfortable with the color. Am i correct in assuming the upper limit for this stone would be around $1200/carat? cherokee I think that is more than the upper limit. I can find 2ct unheated stones like this for less.
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| Posted: 9/27/2005 3:19:42 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 3:33:18 PM | |
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Bertrand Ideal Rock Total Posts: 622 Last Post: 8/17/2009 Member Since: 7/13/2004 |
Date: 9/27/2005 12:55:01 PM Author: valeria101 Hope you don't mind this post, Bertrand. If it sounds rude, I'll be happy to improve on that. No not rude at all...I have been here long enough to respect your thoughtful posts ...even though I might not always agree with them! --------------------------- |
| Posted: 9/27/2005 3:33:18 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 4:14:20 PM | |
maxspinel Cut Rock Total Posts: 193 Last Post: 9/1/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2005 |
Date: 9/27/2005 12:30:16 PM Author: cherokee thanks for the input. i too realized that 3.5/90 was on the dark side, yet as far as appearance is concerned it is not what i would call an indigo or ink blue. in person it is a beautiful stone,i am actually comfortable with the color. Am i correct in assuming the upper limit for this stone would be around $1200/carat? cherokee $1200/carat seems very expensive for a 1-2 ct heated stone from Sri Lanka. Based on your specificaiton of 3.5/90, it is probably not a top gem so it should not command the highest range. The price guide is for retail, not wholesale. You sometimes need to divide that by 3. A friend of mine got her blue sapphire from a gem show 3 months ago with the following characteristics. Weight: 3.6 ct Color: medium dark tone and high saturated blue Cut: Oval Brilliance: ~ 60% Origin: Sri Lanka Treatment: heated Depth: ~ 70% Clarity: Very slight inclusion under the Loupe Price: $800/ct The cutlet was a little off centered but somehow did not hurt the brilliance. The asking price was $1000/ct and she got it at $800/ct. It was a very nice stone. |
| Posted: 9/27/2005 4:14:20 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 4:22:25 PM | |
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cherokee Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 10/3/2005 Member Since: 9/26/2005 |
heated 'ceylon type' 1.7 carat, emerald cut, color grade: 3.5/90 clarity: FL cut: good, depth 73%, average brilliancy 60% finish: good (5) TQIR: very good/good AGL certified as above. With respect to these characterisitcs, what should I expect the fair market price of a similar stone to be? obviously i expect a flawless stone would carry somewhat of a premium, but this stone is heated. This stone would be set in an engagment ring. cherokee
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| Posted: 9/27/2005 4:22:25 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 4:36:45 PM | |
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cherokee Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 10/3/2005 Member Since: 9/26/2005 |
1. "it is probably not a top gem so it should not command the highest range." 2. "The price guide is for retail, not wholesale. You sometimes need to divide that by 3." 1. I realize this stone is not a top gem, however it does meet the "ideal parameters" of what I believe to be a reputable internet source ( with the exception of the color). Would you say this stone is average or above average for heated stones? 2. In dealing with retail, are you generally saying prices may be 3x wholesale? Again i understand that a stone is only worth what someone is willing to pay, but i am trying to estimate a fair, ie. not exorbatant, price for this stone. I will tell you this stone is currently significantly overpriced. thanks cherokee
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| Posted: 9/27/2005 4:36:45 PM | |
| P: 9/27/2005 5:34:21 PM | |
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MJO Ideal Rock Total Posts: 661 Last Post: 3/28/2008 Member Since: 11/3/2004 |
Hello Cherokee, The color on this stone is ideal, the tone is not. A very good stone would received a 4 color. A 3.5 means it is very true blue with hardly any other secondary colors. With a depth of over 70% it seems too deep to be ideal. Also an average brilliancy of only 60% is on the low side. Without seeing the stone I would say $350-$450/ct would be a fair price.
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| Posted: 9/27/2005 5:34:21 PM | |
| P: 9/30/2005 7:03:33 AM | |
Richard W. Wise Cut Rock Total Posts: 349 Last Post: 11/21/2009 Member Since: 11/16/2003 |
All, I agree with MJO's characterization of the sapphire. I have one of the original COLORSCAN grading sets and studied with Cap Beesley when he was trying, unsucessfully, to market COLORSCAN as a grading system. The highest HUE grade for sapphire using AGL's system is 2.5. This describes a top purplish blue Kashmir sapphire. However, some stones from other sources, both Ceylon and Madagascar can approach this HUE, I have two heated Ceylon's that I would grade 2.5 or 2.5-3.0. And, although heated sapphires are not rare, heated sapphires in the 2.5-4.0 HUES are VERY rare. HUE, as most of the folks replying to this thread know is one of the three componants of color, the other two being SATURATION and TONE. As MJO notes, 90% is overcolor! Think of a lump of coal, that is 100% tone and it is black. A stone with 90% tone is almost black. It will be well SATURATED but as it exceeds the ideal SATURATION GAMUT for blue it is duller than a ideal 75-80% tone. http://www.secretsofthegemtrade.com/chapter_22_1.htm. This link will lead you to the image of a Kashmir Blue Ceylon unheated stone that would grade at 2.5-3.0/80% tone using COLORSCAN. The chief flaw in the AGL system is that it ignores CRYSTAL which is a defining characteristic of the "perfect" sapphire that cherokee seeks. With 90% tone the stone will necessarily be turbid and semi-transparent at best or as one of my most knowledgeable clients says, will have "a heart of darkness." A "perfect" stone using AGL terminology would be 2.5-3.5 hue, (3.5-4.0 still being fine color) 75-80% tone, 80% average brilliance, minimal dichroic effect, eye clean and well cut with 12% or less bulge beneath the girdle. As for the prices, not sure where these are coming from. Maybe the problem is comparing images with certificates rather than gems with gems. If the stone described were 75-80% tone the prices mentioned would be absurdly low, lower than they can be purchased, dealer to dealer, in Bangkok or Sri Lanka. In the stratisphere of gem qualities, small leaps in quality can make for large increases in the per carat price, for example the difference between a 2.5 and a 3.5 hue, exceptional crystal and so forth. Richard W. Wise G.G., author, Secrets Of The Gem TradeThe Connoisseur's Guide To Precious Gemstones. |
| Posted: 9/30/2005 7:03:33 AM | |
| P: 9/30/2005 11:20:21 AM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Cherokee, I am sorry to hear that this one came up after a long search... that must be frustrating  Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 9/30/2005 11:20:21 AM | |
| P: 9/30/2005 1:06:18 PM | |
msflutter Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,277 Last Post: 5/17/2009 Member Since: 6/22/2005 |
Date: 9/27/2005 5:34:21 PM Author: MJO Hello Cherokee, The color on this stone is ideal, the tone is not. A very good stone would received a 4 color. A 3.5 means it is very true blue with hardly any other secondary colors. With a depth of over 70% it seems too deep to be ideal. Also an average brilliancy of only 60% is on the low side. Without seeing the stone I would say $350-$450/ct would be a fair price. What is a good/ideal brilliancy percentage on colored stones?
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| Posted: 9/30/2005 1:06:18 PM | |
| P: 9/30/2005 2:15:33 PM | |
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MJO Ideal Rock Total Posts: 661 Last Post: 3/28/2008 Member Since: 11/3/2004 |
Date: 9/30/2005 1:06:18 PM I would say an average brilliancy of at least 70% of course to me the higher the better. I like the flash factor. If I am just going for color I would buy a cab. To me, top sapphire should have a at least 4.0 color 75-80 tone with an average brilliance of 80% or higher. This is not true for kashmire sapphires where brilliance doesn't really count. It's more of the inner glow.Author: msflutter Date: 9/27/2005 5:34:21 PM Author: MJO Hello Cherokee, The color on this stone is ideal, the tone is not. A very good stone would received a 4 color. A 3.5 means it is very true blue with hardly any other secondary colors. With a depth of over 70% it seems too deep to be ideal. Also an average brilliancy of only 60% is on the low side. Without seeing the stone I would say $350-$450/ct would be a fair price. What is a good/ideal brilliancy percentage on colored stones?
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| Posted: 9/30/2005 2:15:33 PM | |
| P: 10/1/2005 12:57:49 PM | |
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Richard W. Wise Cut Rock Total Posts: 349 Last Post: 11/21/2009 Member Since: 11/16/2003 |
Date: 9/30/2005 2:15:33 PM Author: MJO Date: 9/30/2005 1:06:18 PM Author: msflutter Date: 9/27/2005 5:34:21 PM Author: MJO Hello Cherokee, To me, top sapphire should have a at least 4.0 color 75-80 tone with an average brilliance of 80% or higher. This is not true for kashmire sapphires where brilliance doesn't really count. It's more of the inner glow. MJO, To say that brilliance "doesn't count" in a Kashmir is not quite correct. The inner glow that resembles sunlight shining through the fog is, in fact, a quality of the brilliance in a faceted Kashmir. It is caused like the sparkling glow of the fog by tiny inclusions inside the stone that fracture the light as it reflects within and refracts ourt of the gem. Yes, a Kashmir cabochon can have an inner glow that is a function of the transmitted color but with all colored stones the key color, the color or the sparkle is what we look at. I had the priviledge of comparing four 5-10 carat Kashmir's last week. None had the glow. Most Kashmirs look like either Burma or Ceylon sapphires. This is one of the reasons why you should buy the stone not the certificate. Why pay a Kashmir price for a gem that doesn't have the characteristics that made the location famous. The current market that relies on origin rather than beauty to establish the price is truly an aberration. Richard W. Wise G.G., author, Secrets Of The Gem TradeThe Connoisseur's Guide To Precious Gemstones. |
| Posted: 10/1/2005 12:57:49 PM | |
| P: 10/3/2005 10:48:13 AM | |
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MJO Ideal Rock Total Posts: 661 Last Post: 3/28/2008 Member Since: 11/3/2004 |
Hello Richard, What I mean when I say glow is more velvety and not just brilliance. I also like this in a tanzanite. To me the glow is also in lower lighting situations than just in stonger lit rooms or sunlight.
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| Posted: 10/3/2005 10:48:13 AM | |
| P: 10/3/2005 1:19:21 PM | |
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cherokee Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 10/3/2005 Member Since: 9/26/2005 |
thank you all for the information and insightful explanations. Could you tell me exactly the importance of a TQIR? From the discussion i dont get the impression that this stone is an exceptional find. heated, 1.7 carat, emerald cut 7.7x5.2x3.9 color grade: 3.5/90 scan: b70 v15 g15 clarity: FI cut: good (4), depth 73%, average brilliancy 60% (range 40%-90%) finish: good (5) faint color zoning / dichroic effect TQIR: very good/good AGL certified as above. i am trying to get a picture to post.
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| Posted: 10/3/2005 1:19:21 PM | |
| P: 10/3/2005 3:28:21 PM | |
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MJO Ideal Rock Total Posts: 661 Last Post: 3/28/2008 Member Since: 11/3/2004 |
Hello Cherokee, Click on this link for more info on AGL certs. http://www.preciousgemstones.com/AGLCERT.HTML
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| Posted: 10/3/2005 3:28:21 PM | |
| P: 10/5/2005 3:02:31 PM | |
kashmirblue Rough Rock Total Posts: 15 Last Post: 8/25/2006 Member Since: 7/12/2004 |
Many Kashmir stones have a flourescense created from the fine rutile inclusions. This flourescense or 'glow' can be displayed best when stones are light blue or colorless. When combined with the typically rich saturation of Kashmir you have the velvet glowing appearance. With respect to premiums, I've sold many Kashmir sapphire at Ceylon and or Burma prices especially when they are commercial quality. In reality, the world's market demands a premium for certain origins whether or not you as an individual are willing to pay it. The fact is, an origin like Kashmir comes with a certain prestigious history and heritage. In addition, the increasing demand and diminishing reappearance of stones on the market continues to increase the price/premium. The majority of consumers are looking to be individuals and separate themselves from the masses. Purchasing 'a story' or 'label' is a significant reality in this business. This is why we see sapphire marketers attempting to label everything "Kashmir Blue" regardless of origin. The sophisticated recognize and take into consideration both quality and pedigree among other factors. Lastly, I recently sold the finest 5+ct Burma sapphire I've seen in 3 years. AGL graded the stone 85-90% tone. The color and saturation was so incredibly rich with a bright flourescense, the stone was a knock-out! My client, a well seasoned collector, said, "in comparison this stone makes my 3/80% Burma sapphire look washed out" However, I agree most in North America prefer lighter tones. Kindly, Ed Cleveland KB Gem |
| Posted: 10/5/2005 3:02:31 PM | |
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