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ť HELP- Is AGS a Reputable Lab for Grading Fancy Yellow

HELP- Is AGS a Reputable Lab for Grading Fancy Yellow

P: 6/16/2005 9:01:58 PM
RADIANTTIFF Rough Rock Total Posts: 86 Last Post: 8/1/2005 Member Since: 8/12/2003	I am getting ready to buy a fancy yellow diamond from my dealer, and he is going to send it to AGS for the Lab report- I know they are very reputable, but how about for fancy colors? PLease help!! This is a very expensive stone.
Posted: 6/16/2005 9:01:58 PM

There are 22 replies to this message. There are 22 replies on this page.

P: 6/17/2005 8:38:01 PM
Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,879 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002	I'm bumping this post because I'm interested in other expert's opinions as well regarding this. My gut instinct is that AGS would do a comparable job of grading fancies as GIA. GIA however, has "the rep" in the trade for being the fancy colored diamond authority. Most fancy color dealers want to get GIA paper on their stones for marketing purposes, so you don't see as many AGS fancy color reports around. Rich, Independent GG Appraiser Sarasota Gemological Laboratory
Posted: 6/17/2005 8:38:01 PM

P: 6/17/2005 9:06:39 PM
RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000	I haven't seen a fancy color report by AGS.....I don't know what their standard is for fancy color grading. Unless AGS comes up with a more "useful" grading system for color like they did for cut grading, then I suppose GIA is gonna be the report with the most consideration and keep the "lead" position in this race. Rockdoc . Bill Leiberum 1948-2007 Thanks for everything and Rest In Peace,Bill.
Posted: 6/17/2005 9:06:39 PM

P: 6/17/2005 9:10:55 PM
RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000	I read something about IGI starting to grade and report on fancy colors, but who's knows if their report will have much weight. Rockdoc Bill Leiberum 1948-2007 Thanks for everything and Rest In Peace,Bill.
Posted: 6/17/2005 9:10:55 PM

P: 6/17/2005 10:00:14 PM
diamondsbylauren Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,128 Last Post: 1/5/2006 Member Since: 10/18/2003	HI Everyone! Richard- I agree it is a good topic. I've never seen an AGS report for a Fancy Color Diamond. Not that AGS would not do a great job, likely they would- but it might take a while for the market to accept them. As far as IGI and EGL USA- let's use colorless, or near colorless stones for comparison: When someone is selling an EGL 1.00 J/SI2 for $3000, we can assume it's maybe, possibly, a little worse than a diamond GIA would grade J/SI2, and that's why it will sell for less than a well cut J/SI2 with a GIA report.. A 5.00 carat for $20k with EGL USA report- that sounds possible. If someone is offering a 5.00 EGL D/VS1 for $100K, you'd have to wonder who'd buy it? Even if a GIA stone of that size., color and clarity is $150,000. In Fancy Colors the problem is- neither EGL USA, nor IGI have accepted the U-V, W-X, and Y-Z grading system. So a Y-Z is a "Light -Fancy Light Yellow" many times. It's confusing, and does not dovetail with GIA's ( much superior) grading sytem for lighter yellow diamonds. That lessens the secondary labs' importance in the less expensive , lighter fancy color shades. So we don't see EGL USA Y-Z $20,000 Five carat stones Again, you'd have to wonder who'd buy a $100,000 five carat vivid yellow with IGI paper- even if a GIA 5.00 vivid is $150,000 David
Posted: 6/17/2005 10:00:14 PM

P: 6/17/2005 10:20:46 PM
RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000	Hi David I do have to commend GIA for developing their system of color grading. As previous to that fancy color was sort of like the wild west of exaggeration. Almost any diamond with a hint of being a fancy yellow was represented as a "Canary" diamond. Fortunately, that practice of misrepresentation has dwindled. Just thought I'd mention that I really think the GIA descriptions of fancy color has certainly raised the "bar" from what it used to be. Thought I'd mention this practice just in case consumers are still being told a yellow diamond is a "canary". Rockdoc Bill Leiberum 1948-2007 Thanks for everything and Rest In Peace,Bill.
Posted: 6/17/2005 10:20:46 PM

P: 6/17/2005 11:34:14 PM
diamondsbylauren Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,128 Last Post: 1/5/2006 Member Since: 10/18/2003	I agree 100% RockDoc- I cringe at the use of the word "Canary" It's like saying "blue white". What the heck does that mean? It used to be used to describe D-F color stones- but to me, it's another misleading description David
Posted: 6/17/2005 11:34:14 PM

P: 6/18/2005 12:00:48 AM
RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000	Date: 6/17/2005 11:34:14 PM Author: diamondsbylauren I agree 100% RockDoc- I cringe at the use of the word 'Canary' It's like saying 'blue white'. What the heck does that mean? It used to be used to describe D-F color stones- but to me, it's another misleading description Well if you had a diamond that was half blue and half white, I'd go along with that. <G> Blue haven't seen one yet. Here's a quick one for you.... I did sell ( when I had a jewelry store ) a sort of half yellow/ half white diamond. Most of the body color was fancy yellow with a white section in the center like a cross. GIA said it was bi color on their report. So maybe a real half blue/half white stone will surface one of these days. _____ You cringe.... at canary.... heheh I visualize Tweety ( the consumer) and Sylvester... (the seller) who misrepresents in that fashion <G> Rockdoc Bill Leiberum 1948-2007 Thanks for everything and Rest In Peace,Bill.
Posted: 6/18/2005 12:00:48 AM

P: 6/18/2005 3:26:42 AM
DiaGem Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,927 Last Post: 11/21/2009 Member Since: 10/21/2004	Me too, I never saw a fancy color diamond with a AGS report. its either GIA, Gubelin, or IGI. But Gubelin is as far as my info. a very reputable Labaratory for fancy color diamonds!!! ********************** >Y< Yoram F. Antique Diamond Gem http://www.diagem.net/ "When it doesn't exist, design it..." Sir Henry Royce
Posted: 6/18/2005 3:26:42 AM

P: 6/18/2005 12:46:42 PM
diamondsbylauren Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,128 Last Post: 1/5/2006 Member Since: 10/18/2003	Gubelin???????????????????????? I've never heard of them- I've never ever seen a stone with such a report. IGI- well, maybe someday. David
Posted: 6/18/2005 12:46:42 PM

P: 6/18/2005 1:13:03 PM
Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,879 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002	The Gubelin Laboratory in Lucerne, Switzerland, was established by the legendary gemologist Edward J. Gubelin (1913-2005) and is one of the most renowned gemological laboratories in the world. The Gubelin Lab and GIA have worked together on several occasions, sharing information and expertise. Gubelin is on the same gemological level of credibility as the GIA, and in the area of colored stones even exceed GIA's expertise, in my opinion. Gubelin authored the book "Inclusions as a Means of Gemstone Identification" and co-authored the "PhotoAtlas of Inclusions in Gemstones" with GIA's John Koivula, both monumental works. In the rarified world of very fine and important gemstones (such as those sold at the Important Jewels auctions of Sotheby's and Christies), the Gubelin report carries every bit the credibility of a GIA report, if not more. The Gubelin Lab website is located at http://www.gubelinlab.com/ Rich, Independent GG Appraiser Sarasota Gemological Laboratory
Posted: 6/18/2005 1:13:03 PM

P: 6/18/2005 3:38:53 PM
diamondsbylauren Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,128 Last Post: 1/5/2006 Member Since: 10/18/2003	Thanks Richard! Live and learn David
Posted: 6/18/2005 3:38:53 PM

P: 6/18/2005 4:57:18 PM
Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,579 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000	Gueblin is definetly a force in color stones and colored diamonds. HRD is also. GIA and HRD reports are supplied with every Argyle pink tender diamond in their annual auctions. I do not like GIA's system for pink diamonds - it has very very large color ranges and many examples of diamonds in so called inferior grades that are worth twice as much as so called lessor grades. They should have stuck to a pure Munsell based system of Hue, Saturation (Intensity) and Tone (Grey scale shade). Howard Rubin has a better system and the original education system from GIA - with the plastic chips - these are all predictable and more reliable for pink diamonds. On balance, of the labs I prefer HRD for colored diamonds. AGS have huge credability in D-L, see the grading survey from the lower left link on the front page, but I would think you would want an HRD, GIA and maybe a Gueblin to resell a fancy colored diamond. Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT HCA and Ideal-scope developer http://www.ideal-scope.com and http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au
Posted: 6/18/2005 4:57:18 PM

P: 6/18/2005 5:12:01 PM
RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000	Gublein was certainly a "one of a kind" gemologist. Who else would saw a ruby that was incredibly valued in half to get better photos of its characteristics Koivala is now with AGTA ( American Gem Trade Labs.) and Im not certain but they may be doing fancy color diamonds. http://www.agta.org I think is their website....some cool photos there. They are in the lab update news section. Rockdoc Bill Leiberum 1948-2007 Thanks for everything and Rest In Peace,Bill.
Posted: 6/18/2005 5:12:01 PM

P: 6/18/2005 5:21:23 PM
denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,614 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004	Date: 6/18/2005 5:12:01 PM Author: RockDoc Gublein was certainly a 'one of a kind' gemologist. Who else would saw a ruby that was incredibly valued in half to get better photos of its characteristics Koivala is now with AGTA ( American Gem Trade Labs.) and Im not certain but they may be doing fancy color diamonds. http://www.agta.org I think is their website....some cool photos there. They are in the lab update news section. Rockdoc AGTA is a first rate lab but they don't do diamonds, at least not yet. They are wonderful for origin reports for other kinds of gemstones as well as pearls. Neil Beaty GG(GIA) ISA NAJA Independent Appraisals in Denver There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.
Posted: 6/18/2005 5:21:23 PM

P: 6/18/2005 11:05:00 PM
RADIANTTIFF Rough Rock Total Posts: 86 Last Post: 8/1/2005 Member Since: 8/12/2003	Thanks for your replies!! I spoke with him yesterday and he is sending it to GIA- his assistant told me he was sending it to AGS and I too have never seen AGS colored diamond analysis. I just want to make sure it has not been irradiated. I am assuming if he is sending it to GIA that it has not been irradiated. Does GIA grade color treated diamonds? I know they don't grade fracture fillled- not sure about the color though-
Posted: 6/18/2005 11:05:00 PM

P: 6/19/2005 1:06:28 AM
diamondsbylauren Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,128 Last Post: 1/5/2006 Member Since: 10/18/2003	Hey RADIANTTIFF, One question comes to mind- why did the dealer have such an expensive stone without a GIA report to start with? It's quite unusual for dealers to trade the more expensive grades without GIA reports in larger sizes. There's such a large differnce in price between grades neither buyer or seller is usualy willing to risk completing transactions on high dollar stones without GIA reports. As far as HRD reports: In the US, these reports are not accepted as well as IGI, or EGL. I've seen a number of stones with HRD reports - based on these, I'd say the reports do not compare to GIA. With all due respect to the Gubelin lab- They may have written reports on monumental stones, and be very well repsected by dealers of million dollar diamonds. Still, in the US market for diamonds below $200,000- colorless and fancy color- GIA is the last word. If one had a 2.00 ct Fancy Yelllow with a Gubelin report, US dealers of normal , GIA stones would not know what to do with it. IT stands to reason that growth in the non American markets will nessesitate some European or Asian gem lab to become what GIA currently represents. Maybe Gubelin will be that lab. But it is not currently well a known lab in the US David
Posted: 6/19/2005 1:06:28 AM

P: 6/19/2005 2:07:10 AM
Platinumsmith Ideal Rock Total Posts: 667 Last Post: 9/22/2005 Member Since: 11/26/2004	You'll buy what you can sell Dave, isn't that right? Looks like you have a high end clientele wanting canary yellow stones (I still like that term). Great topic about different labs. Phillip
Posted: 6/19/2005 2:07:10 AM

P: 6/19/2005 2:50:13 AM
diamondsbylauren Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,128 Last Post: 1/5/2006 Member Since: 10/18/2003	For sure Phil! If I am lucky, I purchase things that people want to buy. David
Posted: 6/19/2005 2:50:13 AM

P: 6/19/2005 7:54:05 PM
RADIANTTIFF Rough Rock Total Posts: 86 Last Post: 8/1/2005 Member Since: 8/12/2003	The reason it dosen't have a GIA yet is it just came in from Isreal along with about 50-60 stones. He has not sent any to the labs yet- I am a private jeweler and was in one of my diamond dealers offices and he just got this box of stones in. I was looking through it and pulled out this amazing diamond. I sent you a picture of it last week and you told me it looked troublesome for the price. Its at least a VVS1 and I am going to say at least a Fancy yellow. It may not make Fancy intense- I think the price rteflects Fancy yellow. I know its not fancy light because I sold a GIA fancy light last year and this one is deeper hands down.
Posted: 6/19/2005 7:54:05 PM

P: 6/20/2005 12:54:25 AM
diamondsbylauren Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,128 Last Post: 1/5/2006 Member Since: 10/18/2003	Hi Radaintiff, The reason that it's troublesome, or risky- is that you could get a nasty surprise- for example, it could come back Brownish Yellow- the photo may have shown this- The word brownish on the GIA report would have a huge impact on the price- good thing you'll be able to see a GIA report before you buy. David
Posted: 6/20/2005 12:54:25 AM

P: 6/21/2005 3:06:39 AM
RADIANTTIFF Rough Rock Total Posts: 86 Last Post: 8/1/2005 Member Since: 8/12/2003	Oh- I see. I buy stones from him all the time and he does not sell traeted stones so I know its not treated-Im sending it to GIA and he is paying for the report. As I said before, I definately do not have as much experience with color as you do- Now I thought the last color stated on the GIA reoprt was the dominant color and determines the price- like if it came back brownish yellow it would be more pricey as opposed to yellowish brown? Am I right or just confused? Honestly I love the color- I really do not like that bright schoolbus yellow- this is definately yellow but GOLDEN- . In sunlight it is yellow and in a room it is golden, and under flourescent lights its amazing- its like it has glitter inside. I was at the JCK show and toook it to another dealer who I buy from and he put it next to one of his GIA 7 carat yellows that he had priced for 7800 per carat. It was the same color but his was a VS1 I think.I have a 4.5 ct marquise that Im trading in- This diamond looks bigger than that and its definately more mysterious and has a ton of personality!!! Any more imput is very helpful and much appreciated
Posted: 6/21/2005 3:06:39 AM

P: 6/21/2005 3:09:04 AM
RADIANTTIFF Rough Rock Total Posts: 86 Last Post: 8/1/2005 Member Since: 8/12/2003	OH- I forgot, I called AGS lab, and they dont even grade colored diamonds!!! Go figure. No wonder we havent seen an AGS colored diamond report. Thanks for all your concerns though!!
Posted: 6/21/2005 3:09:04 AM

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