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»  » Diamond Prices and Grading »
 » RockyTalky
»  » Is Ideal cut over rated?
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Is Ideal cut over rated? |
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| P: 6/15/2005 12:37:28 PM | |
Dolce Vita Rough Rock Total Posts: 21 Last Post: 9/8/2005 Member Since: 5/10/2005 |
Hello. I've been reading a lot of these forums, and I notice that many of the people here are extremely consistant on getting an ideal cut. I wanted to start a topic and hear from people, how much more would they pay for an ideal cut, compared to a well-cut diamond? How important are hearts and arrows? Would you give up GIA and get an EGL just to have the "IDEAL CUT" statement on it? Would love to hear your thoughts.
Daniel Taharlev www.dolce-vita-diamonds.com |
| Posted: 6/15/2005 12:37:28 PM | |
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There are 22 replies to this message. There are 22 replies on this page. |
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| P: 6/15/2005 12:55:44 PM | |
codex57 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,492 Last Post: 1/21/2008 Member Since: 12/18/2004 |
Depends on your priorities. I want ideal, but I don't find it worth the premium for a branded super-ideal. I'd be willing to settle for almost ideal. And no, I wouldn't sacrifice GIA for EGL just so the thing says "ideal" on the cert. I'd look for AGS. 
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| Posted: 6/15/2005 12:55:44 PM | |
| P: 6/15/2005 1:08:49 PM | |
carrot Rough Rock Total Posts: 61 Last Post: 8/24/2005 Member Since: 6/8/2005 |
The problem with the term "ideal cut" is that so many different claims have been made regarding it that it has lost its meaning. Now the term "super ideal cut" has surfaced. So apparently "ideal" did not mean "ideal" or "as good as it can get" because now we have cuts that are claimed to be even better than "perfect". Further, "hearts and arrows" designations speak to symmetry, but do not guarantee the best possible light return. If someone could design and implement a truly PERFECT cut for a particular shape, then we would have a worthy designation for the term "ideal cut". That is, light return would be 100% with the perfect balance between brilliance and fire and with appropriate contrast to enhance the flashes of light. I have never seen or heard of such a diamond. The closest I have seen to a true "ideal cut" is a Solasfera diamond from David S Daimonds. It literally blew away any other diamond I have ever seen in terms of light return. Its performance was so far superior to any other round diamond I have seen that it MIGHT be worthy of the designation "ideal cut". But that is only a subjective and comparitive, not an objective evaluation. So once (and if) the term "ideal cut" has been legitimately earned, how does one keep the imposters from using it? Beauty is in the cut of the holder! |
| Posted: 6/15/2005 1:08:49 PM | |
| P: 6/15/2005 2:47:22 PM | |
Regular Guy Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,317 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2004 |
I think it's a good question, that's also been talked about here a lot. I think it can be over rated...but I think it should be clear it should be rated. For example, in the same way colors are graded, should cut be any less measured than that, and valued for goodness? I'd pay somewhat more for a D than an E, even if I couldn't tell the difference. Certainly, this is true when looking at WF options, and considering A cut above vs Expert Selection. Separately, given the 4 Cs, I think it makes sense to prioritize cut. I think the market undervalues this, with respect to what people pay now. How much to pay...it's a good question. Also, even more than with color, there are certain critical factors, such that in some cases, it's a question almost of whether the darn thing is working or not (!). Alternately, I purchased my wife's central E-ring diamond, looking for a well cut diamond, and then side stones came along with the setting. Looking at the 3 together, they all sparkle nicely, despite no extra effort to seek excellence on the side stones. So, perhaps I'm only here trying to help frame your question and confirm it. Then again, regarding EGL.. Date: 6/15/2005 12:37:28 PM Author:DolceVita Would you give up GIA and get an EGL just to have the 'IDEAL CUT' statement on it? Would love to hear your thoughts. There's just a separate question there regarding accuracy, I think, and knowing what you're getting. Ira (Ruffles have Ridges) Z. |
| Posted: 6/15/2005 2:47:22 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 2:20:12 PM | |
Karen Leah Cut Rock Total Posts: 217 Last Post: 4/1/2007 Member Since: 6/19/2005 |
I understand the difference between an ideal and non-ideal diamond. With that said I have to say I bought a non-ideal diamond. I looked at many many diamonds that were ideal per the numbers but this one stone that I purchased was the one that jumped at me. I swear it grabbed me by the shoulders and shook me up and down. Sort of like those cute little puppies at the pound do. To me purchasing a diamond has to feel right. The diamond has to look right when you look at it, not just when you look at the paperwork for it. ~Karen |
| Posted: 6/19/2005 2:20:12 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 3:05:18 PM | |
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003 |
No I dont think its over rated. Over the widest range of lighting conditions a well cut diamond will perform well. Not so with less well cut diamonds. Some lighting conditions will make frozen lopsided spit look good so if thats the light conditions someone most often looks at diamonds in then so be it. To me the best round diamond is the one that performes at a high level under as many light conditions as possible. That means a diamond tuned for a balance of high levels of both fire and brilliance with good contrast. That usualy means a highly optical symetrical diamond with the proper crown and pavilion angles and the right minor facet cutting. And make it an AGS cert please. GIA is ok if there is enough other info to go with it but the AGS cert gives another source of the critical angles to check against the sarin report and other sources. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K |
| Posted: 6/19/2005 3:05:18 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 10:22:26 PM | |
ame Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,452 Last Post: 2/7/2006 Member Since: 7/7/2004 |
Id never buy something that I didn't consider ideal. I would run the numbers and see how it sparkled. I want the numbers AND the sparkle, which is why we got what we got.
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| Posted: 6/19/2005 10:22:26 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 10:29:11 PM | |
charcoal Rough Rock Total Posts: 36 Last Post: 6/22/2005 Member Since: 6/16/2005 |
I've seen too many "ideal cut" diamonds that have left me cold, and too many "deep" stones that blew me away. Also - the most perfectly cut stone may be hazy and lifeless. You cannot plug #'s into a computer and determine how the stone will look. It's like saying the Mona Lisa is beautiful because it contains 16 colors and 243,444 brush strokes!
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| Posted: 6/19/2005 10:29:11 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 10:39:34 PM | |
Kaleigh Ideal Rock Total Posts: 25,912 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 11/18/2004 |
MrGG, When you refer to a stone being hazy are you referring to fluorescence??? There are many people here including myself that have stones with medium blue fluorescence, and there is no hazy appearance whats so ever. Can you please tell us what you are alluding to???? ____________________________ |
| Posted: 6/19/2005 10:39:34 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 10:41:00 PM | |
lop Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,651 Last Post: 9/7/2009 Member Since: 6/14/2003 |
Today there is a difference between "ideal" cut and top performance. Ideal is currently too broad of a term to be enough by itself. I think most people here agree that what matters is how the stone performs, but that is easy to confuse with all the "ideal" labels thrown around. There are tools like the idealscope, and now ASET to help measure that light return and overal performance, and the grading agencies are working hard to either improve or start measuring this preformance. Personally, I try hard to not fixate on the numbers, but worry instead on what the stone looks like. I will pay a premium for top performance, but not just for "ideal" numbers. That said, the numbers and pictures are all you have if you are buying over the internet. They are also a way to help validate what your eyes see if you are looking at them live and not an experienced buyer.
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| Posted: 6/19/2005 10:41:00 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 10:42:08 PM | |
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charcoal Rough Rock Total Posts: 36 Last Post: 6/22/2005 Member Since: 6/16/2005 |
No - I'm talking about non-fluroescent cloudiness. I've even seen SI1's with an overall cloudy apprearance that were just dead. This is why I would never rely solely on a computer to tell if the diamond will be beautiful or not.
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| Posted: 6/19/2005 10:42:08 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 10:55:44 PM | |
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Kaleigh Ideal Rock Total Posts: 25,912 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 11/18/2004 |
Yes that's why god gave us eyes and most of us use them when buying diamonds.
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| Posted: 6/19/2005 10:55:44 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 10:58:27 PM | |
JohnQuixote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,212 Last Post: 5/24/2008 Member Since: 9/9/2004 |
MrGG might be alluding to microscopic grouping of small crystals that can look dust-like. These are plotted as 'clouds' on lab grading reports. Most inclusions don't influence a diamond's performance. However, large clouds can affect a diamond's ability to transmit light. The size and location of these inclusions will determine their impact upon the clarity of the diamond. Reputable labs grade accordingly. John |
| Posted: 6/19/2005 10:58:27 PM | |
| P: 6/19/2005 11:03:49 PM | |
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charcoal Rough Rock Total Posts: 36 Last Post: 6/22/2005 Member Since: 6/16/2005 |
That is correct. I was responding to the question of whether the stone can be hazy due to something other than fluorescence. Clouds are plotted on the certs. However, there are some SI1's and SI2's with clouds that drastically impact a stone's brilliance, but do not look very menacing on the plot.
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| Posted: 6/19/2005 11:03:49 PM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 12:58:20 AM | |
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strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003 |
Date: 6/19/2005 11:03:49 PM Author: MrGG That is correct. I was responding to the question of whether the stone can be hazy due to something other than fluorescence. Clouds are plotted on the certs. However, there are some SI1's and SI2's with clouds that drastically impact a stone's brilliance, but do not look very menacing on the plot. Thats what a trusted vendor is for to filter out such stones. The computer stuff is just one piece of the overall buying puzzle. No one here advocates using the numbers as the sole means of determining if they should buy a diamond. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K |
| Posted: 6/20/2005 12:58:20 AM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 8:54:01 AM | |
Lord Summerisle Ideal Rock Total Posts: 859 Last Post: 11/19/2009 Member Since: 12/14/2004 |
I come to take the term 'ideal' is becoming an over used term in the sale of diamonds... while the science and data behind the classification is there... its more a marketing tool thats being used badly by some. Especially when theres no data back up to clarify why such a range - and really its some vendors pushing sub par diamonds at a premium. while there are others who go ' here is our top class diamonds... ideal diamonds... and heres the data to back it up.' the Ideal diamond is the one that sings to you when you see it. _____________________ |
| Posted: 6/20/2005 8:54:01 AM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 10:32:35 AM | |
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Dolce Vita Rough Rock Total Posts: 21 Last Post: 9/8/2005 Member Since: 5/10/2005 |
Very interesting replies. But, consider this: when you walk around the diamond district, and look at the windows or talk to the vendors, very - and I mean very - few would talk to you about ideal cuts. The "promotional" sign they'll hang on the window is "we sell GIA certified diamonds". I never ran into a sign saying "Ideal Cuts are here". I also know several dealers, and although this isn't a representing group for the entire diamond business, they don't usually care about ideal cut. They talk about GIA compared to EGL (they hardly deal with AGSs), compare depth and table and measurements, but I never heard them talking about ideal cuts. Just a few thoughts. And thanks everyone for your replies! Daniel Taharlev |
| Posted: 6/20/2005 10:32:35 AM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 10:55:46 AM | |
Paul-Antwerp Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,908 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/3/2002 |
Date: 6/20/2005 10:32:35 AM Author: DolceVita Very interesting replies. But, consider this: when you walk around the diamond district, and look at the windows or talk to the vendors, very - and I mean very - few would talk to you about ideal cuts. The 'promotional' sign they'll hang on the window is 'we sell GIA certified diamonds'. I never ran into a sign saying 'Ideal Cuts are here'. True. However, in the Antwerp zoo (I mean the zoo, not the diamond district), one also sees animals in an environment, which is only slightly comparable to their origin. Like a zoo is not Africa, the diamond district is not the world of retail-stores and consumers. Live long, Paul Slegers |
| Posted: 6/20/2005 10:55:46 AM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 11:26:39 AM | |
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001 |
Date: 6/19/2005 11:03:49 PM Author: MrGG That is correct. I was responding to the question of whether the stone can be hazy due to something other than fluorescence. Clouds are plotted on the certs. However, there are some SI1's and SI2's with clouds that drastically impact a stone's brilliance, but do not look very menacing on the plot. I've also seen stones where graining was so strong it impacted the optics in certain light conditions as well and made the stone appear hazy. Rhino |
| Posted: 6/20/2005 11:26:39 AM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 11:37:03 AM | |
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Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001 |
Date: 6/20/2005 10:32:35 AM Author: DolceVita Very interesting replies. But, consider this: when you walk around the diamond district, and look at the windows or talk to the vendors, very - and I mean very - few would talk to you about ideal cuts. The 'promotional' sign they'll hang on the window is 'we sell GIA certified diamonds'. I never ran into a sign saying 'Ideal Cuts are here'. I also know several dealers, and although this isn't a representing group for the entire diamond business, they don't usually care about ideal cut. They talk about GIA compared to EGL (they hardly deal with AGSs), compare depth and table and measurements, but I never heard them talking about ideal cuts. Just a few thoughts. And thanks everyone for your replies! Very very true. Most in this industry could give a hoot about many of the topics discussed here but then that number is gradually decreasing too. :) Many in the trade read here and are concerned as this forum, IMO is keeping a pulse on the world market and the most recent advances within our trade at the consumer level. Some of us here on a crusade for more beautiful diamonds are beginning to see the fruits of our efforts with the new GIA and AGS systems. Even if some feel the GIA or AGS is being too liberal on some accounts, the advances they are making are still A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE for what was being reported in the past and with these new systems in place more factories will be making it their goal to cut more beautiful stones which means greater selection of the best types of diamonds. More selection is ALWAYS a good thing and the 2 most conservative labs in the world are leading the way in pointing to what constitutes the beauties. Once we have the desktop ASET and become more familiar with that minor facet combo's are acceptable and unacceptable in the new AGS system we'll be featuring an extensive tutorial on the subject and running a comparison of it vs the GIA system for pros and cons. IMO both are headed in the right direction and will lead to the cutting of more beautiful stones. Rhino |
| Posted: 6/20/2005 11:37:03 AM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 11:38:43 AM | |
RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000 |
Date: 6/20/2005 10:32:35 AM Author: DolceVita Very interesting replies. But, consider this: when you walk around the diamond district, and look at the windows or talk to the vendors, very - and I mean very - few would talk to you about ideal cuts. The 'promotional' sign they'll hang on the window is 'we sell GIA certified diamonds'. I never ran into a sign saying 'Ideal Cuts are here'. I also know several dealers, and although this isn't a representing group for the entire diamond business, they don't usually care about ideal cut. They talk about GIA compared to EGL (they hardly deal with AGSs), compare depth and table and measurements, but I never heard them talking about ideal cuts. Just a few thoughts. And thanks everyone for your replies! Dolce...... I have a bit of experience with the diamond district in NY. The street level merchants for the most part are gemologically ignorant and miseducated, or being willfully blind to the differences. There has certainly been enough trade press about branded diamonds, H&A diamonds for anyone who is in our industry and doesn't feel this is a significant ongoing change, that I say those who chose to be uninformed about this does so - intentionally. Consumer education is catching up - and those who aren't learning about the differences, dont impress consumers who becuse of the internet, are ending up knowing more than the person across the jewelry counter. Too many dealers in the overcrowded, ultra competitive areas, conduct business based on misleading advice to consumers. There are a lot of consumers that are uninformed - but that is changing a lot, so it's time to wake up and be the experts they claim to be. Rockdoc
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| Posted: 6/20/2005 11:38:43 AM | |
| P: 6/20/2005 3:43:17 PM | |
oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,964 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
As the trade adopts more defined standards for Ideal cut stones, I'd expect more of them to be cut. In a sense, they will become much more the norm rather than the relatively rare exception they have been. Even those who sell relatively poorly cut diamonds today may be able to sell far better performing stones in the coming years. The cut grading and light performance grading standards will allow quite a variety of diamonds to be graded as Ideal. We just know more every day about what makes each cut a better and prettier product. Some over liberalism has been present in what people were calling Ideal Cut. Lesss of that will need to happen as time goes on. I expect the next ten years will bring some very fine looking stones into the commercial marketplace and people will increasingly look for Ideal Cut as a standard that can be expected rather than something difficult to locate or much costlier to pay for. David S. Atlas |
| Posted: 6/20/2005 3:43:17 PM | |
| P: 6/21/2005 2:12:03 AM | |
Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,919 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
as others have already noted, ideal cut is just a term. and no i'd never look for an EGL with 'ideal cut' on the cert, ick! not even an option. for me, having done this a few times already, i don't even bother with saying i am looking for an ideal cut stone half the time. i am looking for numbers. once i find that range i am looking for, then i can look at images...the arrows if they appear, the idealscope, closeups of the stone and inclusions. if i'm buying online that is. virtually seeing the stone through images gets me to that next step. the final step for me after having found a stone with the number ranges and the images that i like, i have my vendor eyeball it for me. is it eye clean, does it face up white, where are the inclusions, what are your honest thoughts. if i were buying offline, i would use the numbers and my own eyes and an idealscope to gauge how to purchase. telling someone that you want an ideal cut or are looking for one is basically just like saying you want a well-cut stone that sparkles like the dickens. but ideal has been overused and 'marketized' if that is even a word to be the end all to be all. for me i have my own criteria on what makes a beautiful stone. it doesn't require a perfect heart and arrow pattern, but i like to see crisp arrows and a good light return on the idealscope in most situations. i arrived at my criteria through a bit of experience...having had a non-well-cut stone before, more of a shallow, brilliant cut. sure it was pretty and sparkly but i did always feel like in some circumstances where others said their stones were on fire, mine was just...not. now that i have had the opportunity to own some very beautiful 'ideal' (aka well-cut!) stones, i can really see where my original stone was lacking..but also i do know what it's strengths were as well, lots of white brilliant sparkle. however, i now know what makes my heart beat faster re: stones and i know what to look for from having seen something that was not nearly well-cut but returned nice light...and others that return a max amount of light in various situations. late nite babble...but yes i am insistent on getting a well-cut stone for my $$...unless i am paying for something that is an off-make and it is priced as an off-make and i know it's an off-make and i am fine with it. aka i would not insist on a superideal for a pendant but if i could find one for the same price as an off-make in a local store, why not. there are tons of diamonds out there to select from, and for me, waiting until the right one comes along, whatever that may be... is a task that is easily doable. bottom line, prettiest stone within my criteria for lowest possible cost.
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| Posted: 6/21/2005 2:12:03 AM | |
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