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 » RockyTalky
»  » Did GIA make a mistake here?
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Did GIA make a mistake here? |
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| P: 12/23/2004 6:38:56 PM | |
Ice2005 Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 1/17/2005 Member Since: 12/21/2004 |
I analyzed a VVS1 stone today, GIA certified, with a 10x eye piece and couldn't see any inclusions. The jeweler also had a hard time seeing the inclusion with the eyepiece. Then I asked for a microscope with a dark field illumination and after much searching, we found the listed inclusion. It was a faint line, exactly as shown on their certificate. I'm no expert but I thought that VVS1 stones only had pin holes as inclusions. Does this mean that this stone is NOT a VVS1? Did GIA make a mistake with the classification....should it have been classified as a VS2 or lower?? Thanks in advance. |
| Posted: 12/23/2004 6:38:56 PM | |
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There are 12 replies to this message. There are 12 replies on this page. |
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| P: 12/23/2004 6:47:16 PM | |
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
As far as I know, lots of "stuff" can turn IF into VVS1 - not just pinpoints... Your struggle to locate the something makes the nicest descriptions of what the VVS grades stand for  Am I getting the feeling that you really, really wanted the "IF" word ? If so, by all means. There are also those VVS1 "potentials" (a comment on the GIA cert says that slight cut adjustment turns them into flawless) and the ocasional graded due to an external imperfection only... All extraordinary fine departures from paper perfection. "IF" comes with some allowed imperfections as well, so if your are really, really kin on finding the perfect diamond it's quite a quest  Hope the 0.2 helps a bit. Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 12/23/2004 6:47:16 PM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 3:14:49 AM | |
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Ice2005 Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 1/17/2005 Member Since: 12/21/2004 |
Is there a website where they list the type and severity of inclusions that would make up the following classifications: IF, VVS1, VS1, Si1, I1...? I know there is a lot of subjectivity included in classifications, which explains the variability found in appraisals of the same stone, but there must be some basic objectivity/guidelines that appraisers use to classify each stone. I would love to learn some of these classification guidelines, if available on the net. Can anyone help?
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| Posted: 12/24/2004 3:14:49 AM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 4:42:56 AM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Date: 12/24/2004 3:14:49 AM Author: Ice2005 Is there a website where they list the type and severity of inclusions that would make up the following classifications..? Not that I know of... among the nicer tutorials I know of, the one at Good Old Gold comes with a good amount of pictures. You may want to take a look here On the same website, there is quite a collection of sold diamonds each with very professional photos showing inclusions.(Like the one in the next post) There must be better help around here. Nicrez (avatar name) has been taking the Diamond Grading class at GIA. She may know where to scoop more technical detail than this. 
Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 12/24/2004 4:42:56 AM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 4:49:09 AM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Not sure how much better can be done by photography alone... Guess what ? Natural on VVS2 Regent cut :  On the aside, I hunted down every VVS1 GIA repost for an example like the one you mention, but in vain. Everything else is there (graining, naturals, extra facets, clouds!) but could not find a VVS1 feather for the life of me. Not that it is impossible... just never kept a report like that! Darn  Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 12/24/2004 4:49:09 AM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 8:17:46 AM | |
oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,964 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
No matter what the printed literature shows, a VVS1 can be something other than a pinpoint. However, one must consider that for teaching the subject of clarity grading, a pinpoint will show up in the printing process, but a very faint line could not easily be printed. To be a VVS1 "line" means that while there is length, the relief, the degree of visiblity, would be VERY low at VVS1. So, it would not print well in a teaching guide or on a clarity plot. A VVS1 is an extremely small inclusion, or a somewhat larger one of extremely low relief, and rarely visible under the table. Now, with all that said, it is still quite subjective as to where VVS2 begins. I would think that many IF diamonds are actually VVS1 stones and occasionally a diamond graded VVS1 might truly qualify as IF. It is not so hard to think you see a tiny mark that is an illusion, from time to time. Without maginification all VVS1's are flawless........ 
David S. Atlas |
| Posted: 12/24/2004 8:17:46 AM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 9:15:53 AM | |
cflutist Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,370 Last Post: 7/20/2006 Member Since: 7/12/2004 |
From Lesson 4 of the GIA Diamond Grading Class (c1989): VVS diamonds contain minute inclusions that are difficult for even a skiller grader to see under 10x mangification. In VVS1 they are extremely difficult to see, visible only from the pavilion, or small and shallow enough to be removed by minor repolishing. In VVS2 they are very difficult to see. Under 10x, a VVS1 stone might show a minute pinpoint or two, or a harline feather. Characteristics such as reflective internal graining, bearded girdle, minor bruises, or tiny chips could set the grade at either VVS1 or VVS2 depending upon degree. VVS stones are sometimes untentionally misrepresented as FL or IF, simply because graders failed to spot their minute inclusions.
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| Posted: 12/24/2004 9:15:53 AM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 1:55:22 PM | |
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Ice2005 Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 1/17/2005 Member Since: 12/21/2004 |
Thanks a lot for the links valeria101 and the advice oldminer and cflutist. Those explanations and pics were exactly what I wanted. And after some consideration, I think it may a hairline feather or one line of graining. It's a beautiful stone and I'll be proud to surprise my fiancee-to-be with it during the holidays. Thanks to all and have a very Merry Christmas.  Ice2005
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| Posted: 12/24/2004 1:55:22 PM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 2:27:54 PM | |
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001 |
Yea Ice ... I wouldn't let a feather in a VVS1 be of concern. Congrats and have a great holiday!
Rhino |
| Posted: 12/24/2004 2:27:54 PM | |
| P: 12/24/2004 11:19:03 PM | |
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Ice2005 Rough Rock Total Posts: 7 Last Post: 1/17/2005 Member Since: 12/21/2004 |
Today's been a great day guys. Got the beautiful stone set in a channel setting, proposed, and made my fiancee cry happy tears for hours. The best thing to hear from her today was "everything was so perfect". Thanks again to everybody who helped me make a wiser decision and have more confidence about giving such a beautiful stone.  Have a great Christmas and happy new year.
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| Posted: 12/24/2004 11:19:03 PM | |
| P: 12/25/2004 1:11:10 PM | |
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RockDoc Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,509 Last Post: 6/17/2007 Member Since: 8/16/2000 |
Congratulations on your new Pet Rock. Glad to hear she is pleased and happy/ It's a big step in your life and hopefully the ring will last as long as your reationship. Regards Rockdoc
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| Posted: 12/25/2004 1:11:10 PM | |
| P: 12/25/2004 3:16:37 PM | |
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oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,964 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
"From Lesson 4 of the GIA Diamond Grading Class (c1989):VVS diamonds contain minute inclusions that are difficult for even a skiller grader to see under 10x mangification. In VVS1 they are extremely difficult to see, visible only from the pavilion, or small and shallow enough to be removed by minor repolishing. In VVS2 they are very difficult to see. Under 10x, a VVS1 stone might show a minute pinpoint or two, or a harline feather. Characteristics such as reflective internal graining, bearded girdle, minor bruises, or tiny chips could set the grade at either VVS1 or VVS2 depending upon degree. VVS stones are sometimes untentionally misrepresented as FL or IF, simply because graders failed to spot their minute inclusions. " David S. Atlas |
| Posted: 12/25/2004 3:16:37 PM | |
| P: 12/26/2004 4:09:33 AM | |
Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,582 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000 |
A wise comment Dave. It concerns me that many people from retailers who look closely at a diamond or 2 a week, to frequent shoppers who see a few stones a year, that we give freely so much advice on diamond clarity on this Forum. Recently there were many comments that a consumer should not buy a VS2 stone with a feather - it was bound to break! I think without seeing the stone, and without the looker having appropriate experiance (i.e independant appraiser and honest dealer with no desire to loose a good client etc), we should be careful about giving clarity advice. GIA can make mistakes - but they and other labs are by and large in a much better position than we are - they have seen the stone! Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT |
| Posted: 12/26/2004 4:09:33 AM | |
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