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 » RockyTalky
»  » He Can't Afford It?
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| Pages: 1 of 2: [1] 2 > |
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He Can't Afford It? |
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| P: 10/21/2004 3:10:29 PM | |
soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
My boyfriend and I are in the process of "ring hunting". I am pretty sure that he will pop the question before Xmas. I was married before and had myself a nice rock...1.25 princess. In Canada, at least that is considered to be a fairly sizeable chunk. Most of my married friends have about a .25 size. I love my boyfriend more than anything in the world. In all reality I would love to have another nice ring. Chances are zilch that I will have one that size. He can't understand why someone would spend more than $1000 for an engagemnt ring. Do you think that I should suggest against getting a ring at all? Maybe it is shallow, but I think maybe I would be better off not having one knowing that it can't be exactly what I have "dreamed of". Some of these rings I see on this website are unbelievable!
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:10:29 PM | |
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There are 42 replies to this message. There are 30 replies on this page. |
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| P: 10/21/2004 3:24:14 PM | |
oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,966 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
Maybe you should think about getting a "different" sort of ring as an engagement ring for the time being. It is smart not to take something that your future husband thinks you will cherish as a favor to him and keep your mouth shut about the fact that you really don't like it. It is sort of the beginning of the end, and you have been there before, or so your post sounds. Why be doomed to repeat the discomfort?
Why not simply tell this guy that you want and need a bigger diamond? Can he face the truth? Can you face telling him? This is a difficult issue that you should figure out BEFORE you get married. I think it is important to be on a similar wavelength in this respect before you make a committment.
It may be better to have no ring than to take one that you truly won't want to wear. Tell him you'll wait, but the ring you want is important to you, but not as important as his love.....
 David S. Atlas |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:24:14 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 3:34:53 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
Thanks for your reply! I know it sounds very shallow, but I would rather not have a ring knowing how picky I am. He has great taste and all...it's not that. I have tons of earrings/rings sitting in my jewelry box that I have never worn because they aren't my style. I would always wear my engagement ring, even if I wasn't that happy with the way it turned out. I love him and I think that should be more important, so maybe just ax the ring idea. How on earth would I bring this up to him? "Hon...I love you, you are my soulmate but don't get me a cheapy ring...arg". I am stuck.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:34:53 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 3:36:51 PM | |
windowshopper Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,023 Last Post: 7/25/2006 Member Since: 7/11/2004 |
a really nice eternity band can be amazing and more practical.......plus the symbolism is really more meaningful than the engagement ring
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:36:51 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 3:42:16 PM | |
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oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,966 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
I have no idea where you are located, but when I used to live out in Tucson I had a few friends who bought silver rings with sem-precious stones made by the local Indians as their everyday wedding jewelry. This is cheap and durable. It has special interest in that part of the country and they are happy with these things. Some American Indian jewelry is made in gold and has some excellent design and sentimental influences present. Indians attach stories to their art and art jewelry. It makes these pieces very special to their owners.
The point of this is that it is better to get something you would want than to have someone waste their money. There are some excellent alternatives, some of them are geographical, and some aren't. Take a look and maybe you'll see something that has special meaning to you..
David S. Atlas |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:42:16 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 3:47:05 PM | |
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hdiamond Rough Rock Total Posts: 2 Last Post: 10/21/2004 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
I have many friends who have been in somewhat similar situations. They had their hearts set on a diamond engagement/wedding ring and the money was not there. They actually ended up getting their diamond rings for much less by buying enhanced diamonds. These are natural diamonds that have been laser treated to take out some of the major inclusions. They look beautiful but cost much less. I can refer you to someone if you'd like that is very personal, attentive and professional.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:47:05 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 3:56:16 PM | |
Bagpuss Ideal Rock Total Posts: 830 Last Post: 11/27/2005 Member Since: 9/10/2003 |
I think an eternity ring/wedding band instead of an e-ring is a great idea. This one was posted in the e-ring eyecandy folder and is lovely. The wedding ring is more symbolic of marriage, to my mind, than even the e-ring and if it's made of diamonds, then all the better!
 Then YOU could save up for the 'big rock' e-ring style ring that YOU would prefer.  ----------------------------- |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:56:16 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 3:57:28 PM | |
reena Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,531 Last Post: 8/22/2005 Member Since: 7/13/2004 |
hi, my advice would depend on the answer to the following question: is it the case that he can't afford the kind of ring that you want, or that he can afford it, but he thinks that it isn't wise to spend that much money on a ring? i couldn't exactly tell from your post; the title implies the former, but what you wrote sort of implies the latter.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 3:57:28 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:07:14 PM | |
nicknomo Cut Rock Total Posts: 197 Last Post: 12/12/2005 Member Since: 6/26/2004 |
no offense to you, but if he doesn't really have the money for it, then you shouldn't push or pry for a bigger ring. I don't think you should demand it. I DO think that it WOULD be shallow, and would send a very wrong message. I bought my fiance a 1 1/2 ct ring... but if I couldn't have afforded it, and she demanded it, it would really make me think twice about what I was doing. You see the diamond thing is no more than a tradition. Getting married, and being together has nothing to do with that diamond. The idea of it is to have a symbol of your love with you at all times. Now, really, spending 5,000 on a little piece of shiny rock is probably ridiculous unless you have the money to blow it on. I would consider not getting a diamond if it bothered you, but instead maybe something else as a main stone. Be open that you would like a larger diamond, but you must respect the money issue. It's hard for a couple to get a good start in life nowadays, and that $5,000 difference in ring prices can mean a whole lot. The important thing is to approach the issues without being the slightest bit "shallow", as you put it. Tell him you don't think the small rings look nice, but I would take the attitude that picking out a diamond is a trivial matter. If you don't feel this way, I suggest you rethink things... Now if he has plenty of cash, and is being cheap, well that's another thing.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:07:14 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:12:26 PM | |
Daniela Ideal Rock Total Posts: 703 Last Post: 8/16/2006 Member Since: 10/2/2003 |
I really like Old Miner's response to this one. Sometimes when people ask the kind of question that you asked, there are people who respond saying that the person is selfish, that it's the sentiment, not the rock that should be the most important thing, blah, blah, blah. I'm more of the frame of mind that you should have something you like. I think your concern is fair and valid. At any rate, you need to talk to your boyfriend and tell him your predicament. He should be able to understand. If you are willing to forget about an engagement ring altogether rather than settle, then this is obviously very important to you. Maybe you could not get an engagement ring, and then save up together for a kick butt wedding band with a big, beautiful diamond in it? Just a thought.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:12:26 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:20:15 PM | |
Bertrand Ideal Rock Total Posts: 622 Last Post: 8/17/2009 Member Since: 7/13/2004 |
Oh please - please - don't ever have the discussion (or even imply) with him "my last husband got me something better/bigger" You will be doomed! It is important to get something you like, and he should be very sensistive to that - but be careful how you approach it. Maybe cut out or print out some pictures for him? What do you think he can afford? You should know his financial background (income, debts) by now - if you are getting married. There have been many discussions about diamond size on PS. Do a search. Many of the rings pictured here are not typical for the average north american. Honestly with a fine 1ct diamond going for around $7000 (no setting) I don't know many people able to spend that kind of money. This site is kind of like a fanatic site - lol! People aren't typically going to rave about - or put up a picture of - a .20 ct ring (although I have seen some nice ones posted here for people on a budget. --------------------------- |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:20:15 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:29:28 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
I was also thinking of maybe spending a little extra and getting customized wedding bands. Do you have any experience with titanium? My man is a mechanic and he wants to get something that will pretty much last a lifetime.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:29:28 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:32:51 PM | |
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nicknomo Cut Rock Total Posts: 197 Last Post: 12/12/2005 Member Since: 6/26/2004 |
---------------- I think the reason is that some people see it f rom a woman's point of view, other's from a guys point of view. The women understand how they would feel if they didn't get the ring they want, while the men know how they'd feel if their woman wanted more they can give and wouldn't be happy any other way. It is a valid concern though. I think the key is to pick something that will make both the giver and the reciever happy. Maybe that involved soulsis putting in some moeny of her own... Maybe it involves getting something smaller, but still acceptable.. maybe this means the boyfied will shell it out. The important thing is that they approach it in a practical selfless manner.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:32:51 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:36:48 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
He makes great money and owns his own shop. If he wanted to he could probably afford the ring I would really like, but I would never want to ask him to do that. i feel bad enough. My sister says I am being superficial, in which I agree to on some extent. I asked her how she would feel if her boyfriend (who works on the rigs...serious coin)bought her a $1000 ring. She said that she would feel kind of cheated too. It's not like I want a 2 or 3 carat diamond. Very few people actaully ever get own a diamond bigger than a carat. It's almost like I feel that they feel the way people think they feel about each other it should be like..."WOW..what a beautiful ring". If I was a guy I would want my fiancee's friends to be envious. What taste, how beautiful, etc. I guess it really isn't about size..it is about thought. Maybe I don't deserve him.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:36:48 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:38:20 PM | |
canuk-gal Ideal Rock Total Posts: 9,195 Last Post: 11/19/2009 Member Since: 4/19/2004 |
HI Soulsis: Are you comfortable resetting your former ER into a new custom setting of your design? cheers Sharon (P.S. I live in Calgary and grew up in Edmonton (Dad was a jeweller so I know a few "local" folks in the "business"). "People who possess great qualities, do not need to show off". |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:38:20 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:42:44 PM | |
fire&ice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,827 Last Post: 3/30/2009 Member Since: 7/22/2002 |
Do you still have the old ring? Maybe you could suggest using that diamond in a new custom setting that you both design. If not, I really like the idea of an eternity ring instead.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:42:44 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:49:55 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
I actually volunteered to contribute my own money. He didn't like that idea at all. I think he wants me to have the e-ring to "show off" whereas I am just wanting to be his forever. I don't care about the whole jewelry thing to begin with. It is just a preference of mine to have a bigger diamond.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:49:55 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:51:08 PM | |
moremoremore Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,825 Last Post: 2/9/2009 Member Since: 3/15/2004 |
? You don't care...but you want a big one ?
______________________________ Stewart says: I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And doggon'it, people like me. |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:51:08 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:53:44 PM | |
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reena Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,531 Last Post: 8/22/2005 Member Since: 7/13/2004 |
well, if he can afford to buy you a nice ring, what makes you so positive that he won't?
edited to add: mmm, we joke about peeing our pants, but when i realized the richard simmons avatar was you, i honestly came close. no joke.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:53:44 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:55:09 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
Are you quoting "willows" quotes) Very interesting. Heeelooo fellow Canuck. I talked to him about even selling all my old jewels and buying a new ring with that money. He thinks that he should buy the ring with his money. It still would have been partially paid for by my ex. The worst part is that my ex and I are good friends. We all have dinner together..kids and all. My old set is just sitting in a box. Wasting awy forever.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:55:09 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:55:26 PM | |
.jpg)
icelady Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 10/21/2006 Member Since: 11/25/2003 |
My sister used her 1.5 ct diamond from a previous marriage for her current wedding ring. It looks nothing like the other setting and she and her husband agreed that it was a great idea. He is happy, she is happy and no one knows that it was from the other setting unless she tells them!
icelady |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:55:26 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:57:51 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
Sorry typo. I meant that if I was set on really getting a ring I would want to go ALL OUT. I really don't wear any rings.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:57:51 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 4:57:55 PM | |
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moremoremore Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,825 Last Post: 2/9/2009 Member Since: 3/15/2004 |
Reena- nan posted the pic in the Hilton thread and I knew I had to use it!
______________________________ Stewart says: I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And doggon'it, people like me. |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 4:57:55 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 5:17:34 PM | |
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canuk-gal Ideal Rock Total Posts: 9,195 Last Post: 11/19/2009 Member Since: 4/19/2004 |
---------------- Hi: Yes, indeed it is "The Wind in the Willows". One of my favorite books! You know, recently my pal got engaged and her story was quite similar to yours: she had been married before (20 yrs earlier), had a lovely 75 point ER, had an intended who thought $1,000 was sufficient budget for an ER, and also did not want her to use her old ER. As well, they are both employed (professionals) and the $$ would not cause financial "hardship". He asked her what "she wanted", and she stalled because he had casually mentioned the $1000 budget--then asked me what she should do. I suggested that she should honestly express how she felt about her "dream ring of a carat solitare"; but not only that, to educate him on the new millineum cost of jewellery. Natually he was "shocked" when he initially heard about the costs involved because he'd never ventured into buying jewellery before, but the more he learned, the more he became excited about getting her what she "wanted". They both ended very satisfied with the outcome. Perhaps your BF is not accustomed to all this "ring business", simply because it is a new experience and he is accustomed to timing belts and not carat total weights. But you can teach an old dog new tricks (the former educator in me); might he be more convinced of the merit of your request if he was to learn a little more on the subject? Ask him, you might be surprised. Anyway, keep us posted. P.S. I probably know your neighbours in SP!! cheers Sharon "People who possess great qualities, do not need to show off". |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 5:17:34 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 5:24:01 PM | |
researcher Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,440 Last Post: 5/26/2008 Member Since: 4/27/2004 |
soulsis, Your post really brought me back to childhood when my parents used to say, "it's either this or nothing..." when they were frustrated with me for not eating my food or refusing to play with a particular toy. In their eyes it didn't matter which one I chose (the food/toy or nothing), but for me it was a lose-lose situation. Do I resign myself to something I don't really want or have nothing? It's not an easy decision. But, as an adult you have other options. You can upgrade the ring, get a wedding band with diamonds that wraps around your e-ring (making it a three stone or more), etc.. You're not stuck in an "either/or" situation. Isn't marriage all about finding a solution that works well for both people? Have you considered going for something more original in a ring and saving a diamond for later? Before companies like DeBeers convinced people that a diamond is the symbol of love, men gave women rubies, sapphires, emeralds, etc. You could always get a good quality gemstone that's twice as big as a diamond for the cost! Also, you mentioned in a post that you're considering custom titanium bands so they will last a lifetime. While I'm all for titanium, it's not going to be the band that will last forever. From my limited knowledge of titanium bands, they can't be sized. So, as you get older and your fingers get bigger, you have to buy a new band. And where's the sentiment in that? I'm getting my SO a platinum band as our wedding band that he will wear on special occasions (and will be engraved), and a titanium band for everyday wear. Finally, there's no need to feel guilty for your feelings. It's silly that people make you feel bad for wanting. When you're talking about spending a significant amount of money on something, you should either love it or pass. Why spend money on something that you won't use? I think you're being very practical and that your boyfriend will (eventually) appreciate your honesty. After all, you're not turning him down, just disagreeing about what suits you. There's no harm in that! I mean, do guys really need to have the best sports car possible? If they had the chance you can bet almost all men would go for a Porsche over a family station wagon. Put it into their terms and their responses change a bit. Would they really go out onto the golf course with plastic clubs if that's all they could afford/were willing to spend or would they rather not play golf? Just because you're saying that you'd rather have no diamond than one you don't feel really good about does not mean you're being greedy. It just means you're being honest.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 5:24:01 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 5:26:14 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
You are right! I think that he may be in the dark ages about $$. A new car still costs $7000, right? I would love to take my old ring back to jewelers that I purchased becasue I have a lifetime warranty. What is the point of having it sit there? We could trade it in for a new diamond shape, a new ring and matching wedding bands. Then we could save for our dream honeymoon to Bangkok. To me..that makes sense. He thinks that it would be "dirty money" after it all. My ex would have still contributed some way. Hi: Yes, indeed it is 'The Wind in the Willows'. One of my favorite books! You know, recently my pal got engaged and her story was quite similar to yours: she had been married before (20 yrs earlier), had a lovely 75 point ER, had an intended who thought $1,000 was sufficient budget for an ER, and also did not want her to use her old ER. As well, they are both employed (professionals) and the $$ would not cause financial 'hardship'. He asked her what 'she wanted', and she stalled because he had casually mentioned the $1000 budget--then asked me what she should do. I suggested that she should honestly express how she felt about her 'dream ring of a carat solitare'; but not only that, to educate him on the new millineum cost of jewellery. Natually he was 'shocked' when he initially heard about the costs involved because he'd never ventured into buying jewellery before, but the more he learned, the more he became excited about getting her what she 'wanted'. They both ended very satisfied with the outcome. Perhaps your BF is not accustomed to all this 'ring business', simply because it is a new experience and he is accustomed to timing belts and not carat total weights. But you can teach an old dog new tricks (the former educator in me); might he be more convinced of the merit of your request if he was to learn a little more on the subject? Ask him, you might be surprised. Anyway, keep us posted. P.S. I probably know your neighbours in SP!! cheers Sharon ----------------
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 5:26:14 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 5:33:45 PM | |
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Allisonfaye Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,302 Last Post: 11/5/2009 Member Since: 10/18/2004 |
Hmm...this is a tough one. I totally understand where you are coming from. I had a similar situation. I had sort of figured on a budget of the two or three month salary rule just as a starting point (probably two). My DH (FH at the time) wasn't really interested in doing the legwork. I did it all. I had gone to the mall and found what I liked and priced it out. Just a little background though: FH made good $$ and went on and on about how much he made. He wasn't obnoxious about it or anything.He was just proud of his success and couldn't go around telling anyone and it was ok to tell me. Secondly, although he first brought up getting married, he kind got scared to commit and after a year of waiting and discussing til we were blue in the face, he finally knew if he didn't make the leap, I would probably bail. I didn't threaten him or anything. It never came to that but I wasn't getting any younger and wanted to have children. (I was 39). Anyhoo, when he first saw what I had in mind, he kinda freaked. It WAS expensive but not more than one month of his gross salary. I hadn't done any research at the time as to getting a cheaper version in the diamond district or online. I think because of his fear of commitment, he wasn't all that into getting the ring and I sensed this and it hurt me bigtime. I think me getting what I wanted ringwise was my way of making that right and feeling better about it all. He was thinking of spending about 1/3 of what I had been thinking, so I adjusted my expectations downward and he adjusted his budget upwards. But I live in an area where 1.5 to 2.0 carats is pretty typical and I had to push the budget to get the 1.5.I was only able to get it because through a very unusual set of circumstances, I got a great deal. Also, his sisters both got married years and years ago and got much smaller rings and I think he probably asked his mom what they spent on theirs and adjusted accordingly but again, he made way more than his brothers in law ever did. Anyway, I didn't end up being happy with what I picked. I compromised and tried to make it work but never really loved it. Interestingly, he bought me a rather pricy diamond pave ring on our honeymoon. He had bought me pearls as a wedding gift but unbeknownst to him, I already had pearls so we settled on that. He didn't bat an eye over that ring. (He did buy a very expensive watch on that trip too). Sorry to ramble but I wanted to share my circumstances so you would know your situation is somewhat similar. So, now I am changing to a different setting and a different diamond. I told him the truth, how I was hurt at the time because of what was going on and I found something I loved now and he was ok with it. I definately think you should not let him get you an inferior ring. So, I would suggest several options: 1) Get a different kind of ring like the gorgeous eternity band someone suggested above 2) Wait to get anything at all until you are more comfortable telling him the truth but in a way that is not hurtful to him. (Don't say the ex gave you something better, etc, etc) I know how you feel about people thinking you are shallow. I felt the exact same way. My friend looked at me like I had four eyes when I explained it to her. It's one thing when they can only afford $X and they want to spend that much. It is another when they CAN afford it and don't because they don't believe in it. By the way, would like to add that DH and I are happy now being married and I know when I look at the new ring, knowing DH was supportive, I will be much happier.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 5:33:45 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 5:34:48 PM | |
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nicknomo Cut Rock Total Posts: 197 Last Post: 12/12/2005 Member Since: 6/26/2004 |
---------------- Thats a little bit different then. If he can easily afford it, then I wouldnt worry about opening a dialogue. My comments were based on the concept that he simply couldn't afford it. I think I was thrown by the title "He can't afford it?". If he can pay for a 1 ct + ring, then there is nothing wrong with talking to him about it. Just keep in mind, no matter how much money he has you should never come off as greedy. He could be testing (or even teasing) you, ya never know....
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 5:34:48 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 6:45:14 PM | |
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soulsis Cut Rock Total Posts: 317 Last Post: 5/24/2006 Member Since: 10/21/2004 |
You hit the nail right on the head. That is exactly how I feel. I just want to look at my ring and not feel a slight resentment or sadness.
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| Posted: 10/21/2004 6:45:14 PM | |
| P: 10/21/2004 7:21:24 PM | |
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Blueman33 Cut Rock Total Posts: 167 Last Post: 6/19/2005 Member Since: 9/13/2004 |
---------------- |
| Posted: 10/21/2004 7:21:24 PM | |
| P: 10/22/2004 1:20:03 AM | |
zdrastvootya Cut Rock Total Posts: 210 Last Post: 3/27/2008 Member Since: 9/3/2004 |
Hi Soulsis, I think your feelings are valid on this. I think it's reasonable for the receiver to want some bragging rights on the ring. Not the "my ring is bigger and better than everyone else's", but something comparable to what others around you have that has nice qualities on its own. I would never want to put my GF in the position of explaining why the ring is noticeably smaller than her peers'. (Her peers aren't millionaires, thankfully.) The ring reflects (pardon the pun) on both of us. While some may argue that the comparison game is childish, and they won't participate, I can't help thinking some will get embittered about the issue as it recurs and they try hard to ignore it. You can't get a ring and then tell everyone to mind their own business. I think the ring triggers memories and feelings; I think they should be the right ones. Don't know if that made any sense. Z. ps. I guess in your case, it's more what you had before that what your contemporaries have, but sounds like he can afford it, and he should make you happy. Maybe there's some middle ground? Think you should have a heart to heart about the issues involved, if possible. "If we shadows have offended ..." |
| Posted: 10/22/2004 1:20:03 AM | |
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