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 » RockyTalky
»  » NICE DIAMOND BUT NO NUMBERS?
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NICE DIAMOND BUT NO NUMBERS? |
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| P: 7/30/2004 10:21:42 PM | |
Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
I viewed a decent SI1 F .90 CARAT diamond today but it has no cert and the jeweller says he can't get one. He just has the measurements/appraisal and when I asked him for the length to width ratio he pointed at the measurements. What are your thoughts? Would you ever buy a diamond without a GIA? Also, how reputable is IGI? By the way, this is a great site! Thanks Danny
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| Posted: 7/30/2004 10:21:42 PM | |
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There are 18 replies to this message. There are 18 replies on this page. |
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| P: 7/31/2004 12:16:53 AM | |
moremoremore Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,825 Last Post: 2/9/2009 Member Since: 3/15/2004 |
DUDE- deep breath.. you are all over the place!!!  I may be one of the few, but I would buy a stone with no cert IF there was an ABSOLUTE right to a full refund upon an independant appraisal. It might save you some money by getting an uncerted stone. I would be careful here and only use a trusted jeweler. I don't trust IGI../but again, nothing wrong if you can get your $$$$ back...not just an "exchange". ______________________________ Stewart says: I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And doggon'it, people like me. |
| Posted: 7/31/2004 12:16:53 AM | |
| P: 7/31/2004 12:43:48 AM | |
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Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
I'm not dealing with a jewellery chain so I don't know about a refund. The jeweller says it's a good cut but the fact that he doesn't know or care what the exact proportions are somewhat concerns me. Are Proportion % over rated? Is it better to just trust your eye?
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| Posted: 7/31/2004 12:43:48 AM | |
| P: 7/31/2004 12:45:13 AM | |
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Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
Why don't you trust IGI?
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| Posted: 7/31/2004 12:45:13 AM | |
| P: 7/31/2004 2:52:17 PM | |
denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,618 Last Post: 11/25/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004 |
Nothing you've mentioned is a problem but there are some big red flags. a) Yes, he can get a report. He simply doesn't want to. It takes time and costs money. Offer this. Have him send it in to one of the labs that you both agree on. If it comes back with his grading, you will pay for the report, the shipping, and will buy the stone. If it disagrees with his grading, he pays for the report and you walk. The high status labs cost more by the way. b) No mention is made of the cut. He obviously either didn't understand the question or is trying to hide something. This means that you should expect it to be a terrible cut. Price it accordingly in your decision about whether it's a good deal. Why do you mention IGI? I thought you said that it doesn't have documentation? Neil Beaty GG www.gemlab.us There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile. |
| Posted: 7/31/2004 2:52:17 PM | |
| P: 7/31/2004 4:11:12 PM | |
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Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
The reason I mention IGI is because I'm looking at another Diamond that was graded by the diamond company I'm working with. The only other certifications are IGI but it only has measurements and says it's a good cut. I looked at the diamond which is a .85 SI1 D and it looks great bu the only thing holding me back is the stats but I feel my jeweller is trustworthy.
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| Posted: 7/31/2004 4:11:12 PM | |
| P: 7/31/2004 6:47:09 PM | |
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denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,618 Last Post: 11/25/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004 |
Dan99, Where are you? I may be able to help you find an independent in your town that can examine the stone and give an opinion about the grading and the cut. It really is pretty important. I'm not nearly as driven as some of the people on this forum to only buy the best possible cut but it's important to know where yours lies on the spectrum in order to make a reasonable decision about the price. The same thing is true with the color and clarity. Are you really prepared to decide the difference between a F and a G color? Is your seller? If it turns out that this is an AGS7 cut, G color, SI2 clarity, you will be recieving a substantially different stone than if it turns out to be an H&A, E, VS2. These topics can make as much as a factor of 4 difference in the price. You should be allowed to take it to an independent appraiser (who is chosen by you, not the seller) for an examination. If the seller is unwilling to release the stone to you, they may be willing to show it to the appraiser themself, just make sure that all three of you understand that the appraiser is working for you, not the seller. They shouldn't even tell the seller what grade they've decide upon. It's up to you to report that if you wish. The appraiser will, of course, charge you for this service but I'm fairly confident you'll find it to be worth the money. If the seller will only make a deal if you pay now, no refunds, and no outside graders, walk away. There are better deals out there. In answer to your other question, IGI does not enjoy the reputation of some of the other labs for consistency. This means that the information on a report can vary depending on when it was done, which grader did the work (they have over 250 graders!) and similar items that are completely out of your control. One grader might call a stone an F that another grader might call a G, or even an H. I wouldn't say that this makes the documents completely useless but they don't serve the same function as a AGS or GIA Diamond Quality Report. They do a fairly good job of documenting the weight, the basic dimensions, and the fact that it is a natural diamond. Occationally the plotting diagram is helpful. Beyond that I would recommend using other sources for your decision. Neil Beaty www.gemlab.us There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile. |
| Posted: 7/31/2004 6:47:09 PM | |
| P: 7/31/2004 7:26:01 PM | |
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Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
I'm in Alberta Canada. Have you run into Jewellery stores who receive diamonds with just measurements color and weight from IGI and then they just do the grading themselves and put it on their own certificate?
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| Posted: 7/31/2004 7:26:01 PM | |
| P: 7/31/2004 11:48:05 PM | |
Rank Amateur Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,547 Last Post: 5/5/2009 Member Since: 2/26/2003 |
There are sooooo many fish in the sea, it shouldn't be necessary for such angst. Find one with a major lab cert and even then seriously consider an independent appraiser. It need not be so difficult. If this uncerted stone is really calling to you take the above advice. Get a generous return policy (in writing) and get an independent appraisal.
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| Posted: 7/31/2004 11:48:05 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 11:12:14 AM | |
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denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,618 Last Post: 11/25/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004 |
---------------- This is actually fairly common. One of the benefits of buying from a b&m store is that you have someone local that stands behind the grading information instead of, or in addition to, the opinion of a remote lab. By issuing and signing their own reports, the store is putting their own reputation on the line concerning the accuracy of the contents. Neil Beaty www.gemlab.us There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile. |
| Posted: 8/1/2004 11:12:14 AM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 3:10:33 PM | |
sylvesterii Cut Rock Total Posts: 295 Last Post: 5/27/2009 Member Since: 11/3/2002 |
The fact that the jeweller is looking at you, a potential client, buying one of the most important purchases of your life, and telling you that he refuses to certify the diamond, doesn't care about the cut, and can't tell you about what makes a well performing diamond, screams to me that he does not care about you or your business. I would walk away. There are way too many good jewellers out there that have about 10,000 times more interest in you as a customer.
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| Posted: 8/1/2004 3:10:33 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 3:43:20 PM | |
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denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,618 Last Post: 11/25/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004 |
Dan99, Here's an independent jewlery appraiser in Alberta. Alberta's pretty big but she is in your area, she should be able to do a good job for you. Tannis Bilkoski J.B. Jewellers (Calgary) Ltd 505 8th Ave SW Ste 305 Calgary, AB T2P 1G2 Canada Phone: (403) 263-5680 Email: tannis@jbjewellers.com Fax: (403) 269-8821 Best Regards, Neil Beaty ww.gemlab.us There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile. |
| Posted: 8/1/2004 3:43:20 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 4:01:13 PM | |
Hest88 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,681 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 1/22/2003 |
There are many great diamonds out there, but in my mind the most important find is a good jeweler. If a jeweler seems indifferent to helping you, why reward him with your business?
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| Posted: 8/1/2004 4:01:13 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 8:16:03 PM | |
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Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
Thanks Neil Do you have any contacts in Edmonton instead of Calgary? Also, What do you guys think of this stone? Princess Cut 5.29 x 5.30 x 3.50 .85 carat D COLOR Depth: 66% (ideal) Table: 66.5% (ideal) girdle 4.0 % (premium) culet .5% pointed (ideal) I think the crown height is about 8% but I'm still waiting on that #. polish very good symmetry very good Let me know what you think Princess cut experts
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| Posted: 8/1/2004 8:16:03 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 8:21:31 PM | |
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Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
Let me get this straight. So if your dealing with a b & m store who is grading the stone in addition to a IGI measurements/carat weight/color cert/CDI Lab Cert then I should feel comfortable not having a GIA cert?
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| Posted: 8/1/2004 8:21:31 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 8:39:43 PM | |
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Hest88 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,681 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 1/22/2003 |
Table and depth aren't bad, but the crown height is crucial. Plus, I really wouldn't trust just the numbers with especially a fancy shape and would definitely want the opinion of a trusted party. There are some jewelers whose skilled eyes I would trust (granted, all of them would also back up their opinion with various tests) but since this is an unknown jeweler I'd definitely want an independent appraisal. So, I'd hate to contradict Neil, but as a consumer I'd have no reason to trust many B&M's opinion of their stone, especially given the conflict of interest involved in grading a stone you're trying to sell.
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| Posted: 8/1/2004 8:39:43 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 9:45:05 PM | |
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denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,618 Last Post: 11/25/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004 |
Dan99, Personally, I recommend buying a stone accompanied by an independent lab report. Stores that issue their own brand of reports usually do so because they are proud of their products. I count that as a good sign but I still give good marks for having a confirming report from a lab. It's very possible to make an excellent purchase that includes none of these documents. Not every customer wants to go through the learning curve required to become a diamond expert and not everyone who goes through the process ends up making a better purchase. Many just want to buy a diamond and get on with it. They have no interest in crown angles and are only spending their mental energy on it because they are worried about being treated badly when buying such an expensive item. For such customers, particularly those who have a jeweler that they trust and who does work that they like, it's perfectly reasonable to take the plunge and just buy one that strikes your fancy without regard to issues like what labs issued the various reports. The rule here is that if you don’t know your jewelry, you should know your jeweler. In the spirit of making sure that I’m answering your questions: Would I ever recommend buying a non-GIA graded stone - Yes. Would I ever recommend buying an IGI graded stone - Yes. Would I ever recommend buying stone graded by a house brand. – Yes All of the above would depend on the merits of the stone. Ronald Reagan said “trust but verify” to describe his foreign relations. This seems like a prudent way to approach a diamond purchase as well. Edmonton is pretty far from my stomping ground (I’m in Colorado) but you might call Tannis and ask her if there is anyone in your area. The Canadian Gemmological Association in Toronto may be able to help as well. I hope all of this is helping instead of just adding to the confusion. Neil Beaty, GG www.gemlab.us There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile. |
| Posted: 8/1/2004 9:45:05 PM | |
| P: 8/1/2004 10:03:34 PM | |
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Jimmy Rough Rock Total Posts: 26 Last Post: 8/1/2004 Member Since: 7/30/2004 |
Thanks Neil! If you have time can you look at my question about carat size. Is it worth the money to go from a .85 carat to a 1.00 carat? Can an average person even tell the difference in size? Also, what is a good average diameter to go with for a process cut? 5.29 x 5.30 x 3.50 is a nice square but does it match the industry standards for average diameter. Thanks for all your help Neil! I owe you a beer if I'm ever in Colorado!
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| Posted: 8/1/2004 10:03:34 PM | |
| P: 8/2/2004 10:01:43 AM | |
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denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,618 Last Post: 11/25/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004 |
Dan99, David Atlas has written a pretty good explaination on cut grades. You can read it at http://www.gemappraisers.com/ He's much smarter than me. One of the things that really annoyed me when I was in retail was the advise from the diamond industry that you should spend 2 months salary on a diamond. The problem with this advise is that any such decision should revolve around what else you might spend your money on. I would never suggest that you spend money on diamonds that you might otherwise need for your kids college education for example. On the other hand, redirecting your cocaine budget strikes me as a pretty good plan. These are issues that have nothing to do with diamonds, nothing to do with the jeweler and are, quite frankly, none of my business. Collecting financial advise from a jewelry salesman is clearly a bad idea and as a salesman I always hated to dispense it. That said, I'm not going to answer your quesiton about whether you would be wise to buy a bigger stone. I can tell you that there is a certain value to being able to say "one carat" that doesn't exist with 0.85ct stones. 1.001ct stones sell pretty well for this reason. Neil Beaty www.gemlab.us There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile. |
| Posted: 8/2/2004 10:01:43 AM | |
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