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»  » How to determine natural from synthetic Sapphire?
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How to determine natural from synthetic Sapphire? |
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| P: 7/13/2004 11:30:58 PM | |
Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
I recently purchased a ring on Ebay. The ring is made of 14KT yellow gold, with a 4.50CT blue sapphire and surrounding the stone, natural diamonds in a Lady Di/Ballerina setting. It's stunning in my eyes, but the lady that sold it had very little info other than she had the diamonds tested but didn't know about the sapphire as if it is synthetic or natural. In my eyes, the sapphire looks too perfect to be natural, but if it is then I probably struck the deal of the century for what I paid for the ring. Is there a home test or an easy way to determine if it is natural? If you have any idea, please let me know! Here are pictures of the ring: 
..: Amethyste :.. ...: Joy is a net of love by which you can catch souls :... |
| Posted: 7/13/2004 11:30:58 PM | |
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There are 28 replies to this message. There are 28 replies on this page. |
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| P: 7/13/2004 11:31:32 PM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
Another one...
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| Posted: 7/13/2004 11:31:32 PM | |
| P: 7/13/2004 11:32:08 PM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
Pretty nice honker huh? Lol
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| Posted: 7/13/2004 11:32:08 PM | |
| P: 7/13/2004 11:32:52 PM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
And the last one, to show the setting. Thank you in advance for your replies! 
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| Posted: 7/13/2004 11:32:52 PM | |
| P: 7/14/2004 1:47:26 AM | |
Richard M. Ideal Rock Total Posts: 928 Last Post: 11/12/2009 Member Since: 2/17/2004 |
Hi Amethyste, It's a pretty ring whether or not the sapphire is natural. In science there's a logical principle known as Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation making the fewest assumptions is usually the right one. Using O.R. I think you've already answered your own question. Since you say you made "the deal of the century" if it's natural, ask yourself who would sell a fine, valuable natural sapphire for less than its real value? Enjoy your pretty ring and if you really want to learn gem I.D., take a gemology course. |
| Posted: 7/14/2004 1:47:26 AM | |
| P: 7/14/2004 4:28:49 AM | |
Vincent Pardieu Cut Rock Total Posts: 408 Last Post: 3/7/2008 Member Since: 1/21/2004 |
I agree with Richard, To check a gemstone weather it is natural or synthetic you will need some instruments (You can buy them or use some from friendly people), some theory (that you can get reading books) but mauinly you will need practice. I mean to be able to study reference stones with your instruments in order to make the correct relation between the stones and the knowledge you have got reading books. You see in the class I'm teaching about synthetic and treated gemstones, most of my students are working hard (I mean they read books, work the course,...) but then they still have problems to find the things inside the stones as they dont really know what or how to look at in 3 dimension gems. But slowly day after day they become better. In 2 weeks I hope that a large percentage of the class will be able to graduate. Anyway I can answer to you: There are first several kind of synthethic sapphires currently in the market from different methods: Flame fusion, flux grown and hydrothermal. After that you have sapphire imitations (like glass) or assembled gemstones (doublets...) To identify a flame fusion it can be easy or very difficult (if the stone is clean): Typical inlcusions are gas bubbles, curved color zoning,... To identify flux grown gems its in general more complicated, you can have typically flux fingerprints, metallic platelets,... To identify hydrothermal sapphire it can be also a little bit tricky but the chevron like or wave like growth zoning is usually diagnostic. The proble is that the cleaner the gem the more difficult the identification,... and your stone is clean. May be the best way should be to show it to an experienced professional in this field. But Richard advise is the one I give usually to my students: if the stone is that cheap, just assume that its a synthetic: So you will not be disepointed if its not: Greed and ignorance are the 2 traps in gem business! All the best, Vincent Pardieu, "travel addicted gemologist". |
| Posted: 7/14/2004 4:28:49 AM | |
| P: 7/14/2004 10:38:52 AM | |
Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,874 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002 |
Hi Amethyste. I got your email, thanks. It looks like you've gotten good information from Richard & Mogok. When it comes to sapphire, there's not many "easy home tests" to determine natural versus synthetic. There's too many twists and turns in the identification of ruby and sapphire. I'd recommend taking it to a local gemologist for a gem ID. Probably wouldn't cost much (I charge $25 on a gem ID like this, with photos and a simple report). My gut instinct from looking at the photos and hearing the story is that you've got a flame fusion synthetic. It's got "the look". Not only that, but every dealer in the world is going to have a fine looking sapphire checked for gem identification before selling it for "the deal of the century". The difference in value is significant, and I don't know many dealers dumb enough to leave that much money on the table. Great looking ring, by the way. Rich, Independent GG Appraiser |
| Posted: 7/14/2004 10:38:52 AM | |
| P: 7/14/2004 4:39:07 PM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
THank you all for your input. I really appreciate it, I was teasing when I said "deal of the century", well maybe not totally. The sellr never said that, I did because I paid about $150 for the ring. I think that alone for the gold and the real diamonds around the stone should cover the cost of the ring. THanks again all.
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| Posted: 7/14/2004 4:39:07 PM | |
| P: 7/14/2004 6:10:46 PM | |
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003 |
I always assume that any sapphire/ruby is sythetic unless it has a cert saying otherwise or its from a trusted source then I assume its been heated. An unheated priced one better have a cert from a major gem lab to prove it. When it comes to buying jewlery of unknow origin it is just the best course of action to assume its synthetic and pay accordingly. Chances are it is. In my area larger naturals are very very uncommon. That said you have an awesome looking ring that I would be proud to own at a good price :} Enjoy it, I know I would :} ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K |
| Posted: 7/14/2004 6:10:46 PM | |
| P: 7/14/2004 11:15:43 PM | |
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Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,874 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002 |
I would say $150 is probably a screamin' deal on that baby. It's got a $3,000 retail "look" about it (if it were natural, which it probably is most certainly not). Even as a lab-created stone, you got a heckuva deal. Congratulations. Rich, Independent GG Appraiser |
| Posted: 7/14/2004 11:15:43 PM | |
| P: 7/15/2004 10:25:30 PM | |
Cave Keeper Cut Rock Total Posts: 264 Last Post: 9/23/2005 Member Since: 6/30/2004 |
---------------- Let me guess. Either you have extremely dainty hands, you're just a little girl, or it's actually 8.5 carats. It's not a synthetic, Burmese or Ceylonese Sapphire; don't see any purplish undertones. I don't think you're going to get an 8.5 carat (or even half this size) Yogo so it's either probably Kashmir, but it does really look like a geniune heated non-Yogo Montana or a Benitoide, which for the size you're showing is even rarer than any Kashmir of respectable size (i.e., 6 to 10 carats), Thunder Storm Maker (Grand Master), creating havoc in the Heavens when active. Otherwise just a lazy Cave Keeper, sleeping on a huge pile of tiny glittery rocks, small dazzling stones and big sparkling pebbles. |
| Posted: 7/15/2004 10:25:30 PM | |
| P: 7/15/2004 11:57:37 PM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
Cave Keeper, Are you saying that this could be a genuine heated sapphire? Are you serious?! Also, the stone's weight is 4.5 Carat. I have 5.5 finger size, and I am 34, so I am not a little girl  It's a very well made ring and it looks so pretty. THe blue color is really fabulous.What do you mean by "Yogo"? So if this sapphire is real, laugh, how much do you think it would be worth? I included the desc from the Ebay Seller: "THIS IS AN ANTIQUE / ESTATE VERY FANCY COCKTAIL RING, BLUE SAPPHIRE & DIAMONDS, SET IN 14KT YELLOW! THIS RING IS IN MINT CONDITION! THIS RING IS COME FROM A VERY EXCLUSIVE W.VIRGINIA BEACH ESTATE. BEAUTIFUL RING WAS MADE WITH ATTENTION TO DETAIL! JUST DROP DEAD GORGEOUS AND FABULOUS! THIS RING CONTAINS ONE LARGE OVAL BIRLLIANT CUT BLUE SAPPHIRE, MEASURING 12.22MM BY 10.17MM. THIS BEAUTIFUL BLUE SAPPHIRE IS SURROUNDED BY (28) TWENTY EIGHT ROUND AND, BAGUETTE CUT NATURAL REAL DIAMONDS. THE OVAL CUT SAPPHIRE TOTAL 4.50CT, EXHIBITS VIVID BLUE COLOR WITH VERY STRONG BRILLIANCE,THE BAGUETTE CUT DIAMOND AND ROUND CUT DIAMONDS, TOTALS 0.45 CTW. THE TOTAL GEM WEIGHT OF THE RING IS WELL OVER 4.95 CARATS!" Even thought she says it's a sapphire in the desc., I sent her an email to ask her about it, and she said that she highly doubt it is a real one b/c it looks too perfect ie w/o visible inclusions. I decided to bid anyways b/c at that price, even a synthetic sapphire would cost that much to get. So Cave Keeper, please indulge me!
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| Posted: 7/15/2004 11:57:37 PM | |
| P: 7/16/2004 12:01:47 AM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
Here are some extra pictures...
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| Posted: 7/16/2004 12:01:47 AM | |
| P: 7/16/2004 12:02:25 AM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
And last one...
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| Posted: 7/16/2004 12:02:25 AM | |
| P: 7/16/2004 12:08:45 AM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
Here's a 3.41CT UNHEATED Cornflower Blue sapphire surrounded by 20 small diamonds set into 14KT yellow gold... Again, another GREAT find for less than you think I paid for... ( $500 ) But comparing this sapphire and the mysterious one is impossible b/c the color is so different! THis pear shaped one is just sooo captivating! 
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| Posted: 7/16/2004 12:08:45 AM | |
| P: 7/16/2004 6:51:12 AM | |
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Cave Keeper Cut Rock Total Posts: 264 Last Post: 9/23/2005 Member Since: 6/30/2004 |
A Benitoide looks like a Sapphire, but anything above 2 carats is extremely rare. If it's 4 1/2 carats, non-uniformity in color zoning may be likely as every effort would be made to retain as much carat weight since Benitoide carat price goes up along an ever steeper curve as a stone's weight increases by the carat. In fact, some lack of color in a bigger stone could be desirable as this allows more light to generate 'fire' in the gemstone when it's worn. A Yogo is the Montana Sapphire we are always thinking about when we talk about Montana Sapphires, or when Montana claims that particular Sapphire is their state gemstone. Yogo Creek is one of the rare places in Montana where Sapphires found there are of uniform coloring which is also the desired 'cornflour blue' color we love to think about, a kind of medium blue with some sprinkling of white flour to cloudy up the color just so slightly. Sapphires found elsewhere in Montana probably needs some heat-treatment to enhance their color and may not be of the same blue color as a geniune Yogo Sapphire. A Yogo Sapphire is extremely desirable because, unlike normal blue Sapphires which show their purplish undertone (for the Thai or Burmese ones especially) or becomes almost black at night, a Yogo maintains its lovely blue color indoors. The images of your lovely Sapphire reminded me of both the Benitoide and Montana Sapphire. But, the truth is I really cannot be relied on as I don't have much physical familiarity to any gemstone or their subsitutes. As I mentioned earlier on, I've just started looking into gemstone collecting near the end of last month. Come to think of it, I just went to a rock shop today and saw some blue obsidian jewelry. Why, they look just like your lovely gem too! Sorry, Amethyste dearest. Thunder Storm Maker (Grand Master), creating havoc in the Heavens when active. Otherwise just a lazy Cave Keeper, sleeping on a huge pile of tiny glittery rocks, small dazzling stones and big sparkling pebbles. |
| Posted: 7/16/2004 6:51:12 AM | |
| P: 7/16/2004 10:13:12 AM | |
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Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,874 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002 |
Amethyste, don't get too excited. It's a flame fusion synthetic, or I'm turning my GG degree in. Rich, Independent GG Appraiser |
| Posted: 7/16/2004 10:13:12 AM | |
| P: 7/16/2004 8:38:31 PM | |
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Amethyste Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,030 Last Post: 11/15/2009 Member Since: 7/7/2003 |
Richard, Soon, I'll go and get it looked at and I'll be able to let you all know.  THanks to all of you for your input!
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| Posted: 7/16/2004 8:38:31 PM | |
| P: 12/5/2005 6:05:31 PM | |
Mirror Trix Rough Rock Total Posts: 2 Last Post: 12/5/2005 Member Since: 12/5/2005 |
Hi i resently got this ring im still wating for it to come through from ebay and i wanted to know what u think of it. the item description was: THIS IS AN ABSOLUTELY LOVELY RING! MADE FROM 10CT WHITE GOLD (REAL, NOT PLATED)AND SET WITH 3 SIM.CEYLONES SAPPHIRES, AND 2 SMALL GENUINE DIAMOND CHIPS. 
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| Posted: 12/5/2005 6:05:31 PM | |
| P: 12/5/2005 6:06:10 PM | |
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Mirror Trix Rough Rock Total Posts: 2 Last Post: 12/5/2005 Member Since: 12/5/2005 |
this another pic of it.
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| Posted: 12/5/2005 6:06:10 PM | |
| P: 12/5/2005 9:02:52 PM | |
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strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003 |
hmm sim as in glass cz or synthetic sapphire would be my first question. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K |
| Posted: 12/5/2005 9:02:52 PM | |
| P: 12/5/2005 10:54:16 PM | |
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Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,874 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002 |
Beautiful ring. The price and the 10 karat gold most likely indicates flame fusion synthetic sapphires. Still, a fair price. Rich, Independent GG Appraiser |
| Posted: 12/5/2005 10:54:16 PM | |
| P: 12/5/2005 11:20:44 PM | |
MINE!! Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,287 Last Post: 1/22/2007 Member Since: 2/25/2005 |
Date: 7/15/2004 11:57:37 PM Author: Amethyste 'THIS RING IS COME FROM A VERY EXCLUSIVE W.VIRGINIA BEACH ESTATE. LOL... forgive me for splitting hairs... but does that say an exclusive W. (West) Virginia beach estate????? You see.. I have some beach front property in Arizona that I am trying to sell and.....
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| Posted: 12/5/2005 11:20:44 PM | |
| P: 12/8/2005 6:11:50 PM | |
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kashmirblue Rough Rock Total Posts: 15 Last Post: 8/25/2006 Member Since: 7/12/2004 |
You can understand a lot about a stone by the way it is cut. Not always a guarantee, but a great method in narrowing the chase. The oval photographed is a common faceting pattern for synthetic sapphire. Understanding the facet pattern or style of cutting can help you locate general regions in the world. The few people cutting in Kashmir have a distinctive style versus what may be cut in Sri Lanka, Burma or the West. This technique will help you ask the next questions when buying. After seeing this photograph, I would ask what is the quality gold? or maybe what is the history of piece? etc. Remember, if it's too good to be true, then is is probably not true. Sincerely, Ed Cleveland http://www.kashmirblue.com KB Gem |
| Posted: 12/8/2005 6:11:50 PM | |
| P: 12/8/2005 9:31:21 PM | |
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Any reason to clean Ebay bare of synthetic sapphire? One... I get it. Two is a crowd. Maybe they are truly cheap, but there's never going to be a true bargain (i.e. sapphire underpriced by orders of magnitude) in the bunch, as long as a seller does not go totally crazy and that without fellow ebayers noticing before you. I just hope it wasn't the feeble claim that they are not synthetic that made you buy them.  A few more like these, and you could have a decent real one for the total cost. Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 12/8/2005 9:31:21 PM | |
| P: 12/8/2005 10:02:49 PM | |
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Tunduru Rough Rock Total Posts: 14 Last Post: 12/8/2005 Member Since: 3/3/2004 |
As a non scientific point of view but one of born of the "habits" of stones and those who cut them ... Pictures 1, 2 & 4 show that the facet junctions are relatively wide and rounded (see the linear reflection from the junctions in pics 1 & 2 and wide junctions around the kite type pavilion facets in pic 4) which kind of leans towards the stone not being sapphire / corundum. Sapphires normally have nice crisp rasor sharp facet junctions, unlike glass or softer stones which has more rounded and wider junctions like the pictures. Also, pic 4 shows that the pavilion is cut nearly in angle with the stone's RI and is not belled to save weight (which valuable sapphires normally are). In my experience, as a general rule of thumb, purveyors of synthetics and simulant stones make little effort to "save" the weight on their gems and normally cut them fairly "in angle." Also, faceting arrangement on pic 4 on the 2nd facet tier on the pavilion shows the stone was cut in a kite-type facet arangement with its counterparts all being geometrically perfectly placed - indicating it is likely an index machine was used (again unsual for sapphires) to facet an unusual pattern type rarely seen on valuable sapphire. From the pictures I do not beleive it is natural sapphire and due to the facet junction reflections may not even be synthetic sapphire either. Simon Bruce-Lockhart |
| Posted: 12/8/2005 10:02:49 PM | |
| P: 12/9/2005 3:51:02 PM | |
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Lightbender Rough Rock Total Posts: 9 Last Post: 12/10/2005 Member Since: 8/18/2005 |
Wow! How odd for folks to make statements like "It's not this or that" and then post that they have no actual knowldege in gemstones. That sort of talk is not much help here, or anywhere else. Tunduru has made some very good observations, based on knowledge and experience. Since I don't have the stone in hand, it's just a guess, but as a cutter, looking at the color and faceting style (indicates index-type faceting) my GUESS is synthetic spinel...and unless that ring is tiny, it's more than 4.5 carats. Also, and no one mentioned this, posters on ebay are not free to violate the law or FTC guidelines, which CAN have the force of law. If you advertise it as sapphire, it better be natural sapphire. otherwise do NOT use those words. Ebay is famous for allowing this type of nonsense. Disclaimers elsewhere do not matter. It IS a Lanham Act (Federal) violation to advertise sapphire and deliver a synthetic or simulant. Every time. Period. Lightbender
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| Posted: 12/9/2005 3:51:02 PM | |
| P: 12/10/2005 7:01:33 PM | |
danielh Rough Rock Total Posts: 18 Last Post: 12/14/2005 Member Since: 12/5/2005 |
Holly smokes, you can tell all of that from just a photo! Wow Date: 7/15/2004 10:25:30 PM Author: Cave Keeper ---------------- Let me guess. Either you have extremely dainty hands, you're just a little girl, or it's actually 8.5 carats. It's not a synthetic, Burmese or Ceylonese Sapphire; don't see any purplish undertones. I don't think you're going to get an 8.5 carat (or even half this size) Yogo so it's either probably Kashmir, but it does really look like a geniune heated non-Yogo Montana or a Benitoide, which for the size you're showing is even rarer than any Kashmir of respectable size (i.e., 6 to 10 carats),
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| Posted: 12/10/2005 7:01:33 PM | |
| P: 12/10/2005 7:05:34 PM | |
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danielh Rough Rock Total Posts: 18 Last Post: 12/14/2005 Member Since: 12/5/2005 |
Date: 12/9/2005 3:51:02 PM Author: Lightbender Wow! How odd for folks to make statements like 'It's not this or that' and then post that they have no actual knowldege in gemstones. That sort of talk is not much help here, or anywhere else. Tunduru has made some very good observations, based on knowledge and experience. Since I don't have the stone in hand, it's just a guess, but as a cutter, looking at the color and faceting style (indicates index-type faceting) my GUESS is synthetic spinel...and unless that ring is tiny, it's more than 4.5 carats. Also, and no one mentioned this, posters on ebay are not free to violate the law or FTC guidelines, which CAN have the force of law. If you advertise it as sapphire, it better be natural sapphire. otherwise do NOT use those words. Ebay is famous for allowing this type of nonsense. Disclaimers elsewhere do not matter. It IS a Lanham Act (Federal) violation to advertise sapphire and deliver a synthetic or simulant. Every time. Period. Lightbender But how much would it cost to go after such a violator? That is one reason I would like to see at least some of the FTC guidelines , made into law. At least then the police would be able to look into it. Otherwise, its totally up to the buyer to hire an attorney , or be able to prove to the police it was fraud. Thats not as easy as it might sound.
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| Posted: 12/10/2005 7:05:34 PM | |
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