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 » RockyTalky
»  » Am I really anti-retailing?
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Am I really anti-retailing? |
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| P: 7/2/2004 12:35:46 PM | |
oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,964 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000 |
One or more disgruntled B&M retailers feel that my participation on Pricescope and other websites is a part of some agenda that I have to bring them down or to hurt the jewelry business. It couldn't be further from the truth. I have a great affinity for the business and for what it could be. What I have seen over quite a few years is a gradual degradation of ethics which is not just inside the jewelry business, but is a general lowering of all conduct, business and personal. It could be our modern world, our less disciplined upbringing, the broken families, drugs....but whatever you might blame it on doesn't really matter. Things always change and we are in a downward spiral in this period of history. The end of one period is just the beginning of another, so there is eternal hope and promise no matter what the present looks like. Traditional retailers are suffering because profits are being squeezed. Sources that used to be strictly wholesale now sell direct. Middlemen are being pushed aside. Retailers with high overheads are wondering what they can do to differentiate themselves from high volume, low overhead and low priced sellers. It isn't just diamonds and jewelry. It is nearly all retailing that has problems. While I always advocate to my wife to buy from local merchants, we find we buy increasingly from Internet sites. It just makes sense to spend your hard earned money where it is most effective in buying power. Does this make me down on retailers? No... My firm has long supported the sales efforts of B&M retailers in our local Philadelphia diamond district. We help them make sales while at the same time act as a consumer's watch dog when an occasional problem arises. This creates trust, not a bad environment. They may not all like us, but most respect our integrity and intentions. Those who sell phoney paperwork or misrepresented diamonds wish we'd just go away. We can live with it. In the end, we are pro-retail, pro-consumer and anti-lying, cheating, and stealing. We are pro-profits and anti-ripoffs. It is a balancing act, a tight-rope walk, every day. We make mistakes, too. If anyone claims they know we have an agenda that hurts them, then maybe you should wonder why we might. If they seem like "good guys" then possibly you are being misled by their skilled delivery. The really good guys in our business have nothing to fear from us. David S. Atlas GG(GIA), ASG, Sr. Mbr. NAJA www.datlas.com |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 12:35:46 PM | |
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There are 21 replies to this message. There are 21 replies on this page. |
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| P: 7/2/2004 1:09:24 PM | |
Nicrez Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,230 Last Post: 10/21/2009 Member Since: 1/21/2004 |
David, not unless retailing has completely become only salesmanship, profit expansion and misleading information management.
Sad to know that when people feel fear, they have two ways of going, run like the wind or stay and fight. It seems we have so many running like the wind, at the sight of competition online. To make matters worse, many of them are crying and screaming as they run away.
Granted consolidation is happening in ALL sectors of life, including books stores, shopping, etc. You can not always fight the tides of change, so if you can't beat them how about making nice and joining them yourself?
Sadly, many jewelers I visited in my search didn't have a website. Some had some amazing pieces and pretty good business, that could have expanded through on-line markets.
I asked one jeweler in the NYC Diamond District if he had a website. His response was, "What for? I have a store! I have had this store for over 29 years, and I don't need to run things off a computer when people look around to buy jewelery, they come into my store to SEE what they buy. If people want to buy fake earrings for their 8 year old niece, they go to a computer!"
Um....Well said...?
  I say sometimes lessons learned are hard ones, especially when your eyes are closed. Would be nice though if some retailers could use this an an opportunity to organize and reinvent themselves. After all, hasn't that been happening to business since the invention of the wheel? Industrial revolution? Steam engine? The birth of the Automotive industry?"Sometimes it's OK to throw rocks at girls...as long as they sparkle! |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 1:09:24 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 1:20:34 PM | |
niceice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,792 Last Post: 7/22/2008 Member Since: 1/29/2003 |
The lines of commerce are definitely changing, but companies which provide excellent service and quality will always succeed if they keep their options open in terms of being able to respond to changes in how things are marketed. The internet is a viable market which continues to grow each year as more and more people become comfortable with making purchases on-line. Retailers who fail to recognize the internet as a marketing tool will likely suffer in terms of sales, but the reality is that there will always be more people afraid to make a significant purchase on-line than there will be people who are comfortable making purchases on-line... Did we read somewhere that the on-line sales of diamonds accounted for only 6% of all the diamonds sold on a retail level last year? Did anybody else see that article? National Jeweler wasn't it? Anyway, to say that a person like Dave or other independent appraisers for that matter is "anti-retail" simply because he provides verification services for people who purchase their diamond on-line is absurd... Dave and others like him are merely expanding their business via the internet in the same way that we did when we opened our web site for educational purposes in 1997. The funny thing is that we used to call upon Dave for advice and replacement services (pertaining to Old Mine and Old European cut diamonds) prior to when we even thought about creating our web site, so how would that relationship be categorized? Anti-Philadelphia because he was consulting with a jeweler who was located in California at the time? (We're located in Oregon now)...
Todd L. Gray, President |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 1:20:34 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 1:25:26 PM | |
Hest88 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,681 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 1/22/2003 |
I'm sorry you had to suffer such insults, Dave, especially when so many of us are grateful for your help. I don't know anyone who doesn't judge Internet sellers with the same criteria they judge B&M criteria. In the end, as Robin & Todd said, good customer service and professionalism always win out.
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 1:25:26 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 2:21:57 PM | |
Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,927 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
It's so unfortunate that in a time like this when the diamond retail industry absolutely stinks with fear of change, people who are trying to do the best they can to stay neutral and still be true to their beliefs get drawn into the fight. There is no right or wrong in terms of buying online or offline. Everyone may do something different. It's so amazing to me that a change such as the one in progress really causes such aggression. The pie is still big enough for everyone to succeed. Retailers just need to get smarter about how to land that sale! I would look at it as a challenge, though maybe those who have been in the industry much of their lives feel sour resentment that they must change or die in this new climate. It's all about the attitude, it can be a glass half-full or glass half-empty. I would prefer to do business with someone whose glass was half-full. No one likes a sourpuss.
Personally Dave, I feel you do an excellent job of staying netural and sticking with what you believe in. Kind of like Switzerland!
 Lest others forget, you are a businessman as well, you must go where the business is. Though I would estimate you still get a large amount of business from offline, the online is still only supplemental for most companies. I don't see how you have done a thing wrong, and you should not be made to feel as such just because others are frightened. Those who would point a finger should look at themselves and their business model first. Not everyone will be left standing in the end and those who realize adaptation and change can be benefiical will be strong.
________________________________ |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 2:21:57 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 3:11:57 PM | |
researcher Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,440 Last Post: 5/26/2008 Member Since: 4/27/2004 |
How frustrating for you! I just don't understand why these vendors are upset with you for staying ahead of the times and staying with where the business is. With the fast-paced growth of technology today it's inevitable that B&M shops that don't keep up with the times will lose their competitive positioning to companies that are more accessible to a larger market. Why should your company join those that might as well be making buggy whips? I believe strongly in suporting local B&M shops, but when it comes to getting a better diamond for myself that I'll have for the rest of my life or helping them survive, I've got to be a little selfish. There's just no need for me to go in debt to get what I want so I can support my community, just as there's no need for you to pass up business to cater to the local B&M shops.
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 3:11:57 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 4:36:02 PM | |
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003 |
You are pro-consumer and they see that as being anti-them because they dont want consumers to have a fair deal when it comes to diamonds.
........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 4:36:02 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 4:38:17 PM | |
planeguy Rough Rock Total Posts: 1 Last Post: 7/2/2004 Member Since: 7/2/2004 |
What I think B&M stores have to understand to stay in buisness in any industry is that their role must shift to that of like a broker, an advocate for the consumer that doesnt seek to maximize profit based on the consumer, but that relies on the number of people who would happily pay a fee to get what they want at a realistic price. B&M retailers must CREATE Win/Win situations!
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 4:38:17 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 5:27:30 PM | |
fire&ice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,827 Last Post: 3/30/2009 Member Since: 7/22/2002 |
---------------- I feel as everyone else does. Hest is just always succinct!  I hope my glass is half full in that the people/B&M's calling you Anti-retail are in the very loud vocal minority. I think many who have nothing to fear respect you. That will not change (even though we may have different semantics about the word value.  )I know many a fine people still. No matter how you stir. The cream will always rise to the top.
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 5:27:30 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 5:33:21 PM | |
victorianblue Rough Rock Total Posts: 58 Last Post: 1/29/2005 Member Since: 5/7/2004 |
As a consumer who has discovered this site as a direct result of a negative experience with a B&M, I am thankful that such a site exists. I can say without reservation, from reading your posts, that your contributions on the pricescope website have been positive, fair and balanced-with focus on education. The negative B&M responses are, in a sense, more geared towards feelings of betrayal. You and others have have shared information in which the B&M's may feel is sacred and should not be divulged to the general consumer or public. Pacificblueblaze |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 5:33:21 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 5:44:10 PM | |
elle_chris Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,968 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 2/19/2004 |
That’s ridiculous. I recently messaged Mr. Atlas about a B&M in phila that he had referred someone else too in an old post because he stated “he trusts the store to do the right thing”. I couldn’t find the address and messaged Mr. Atlas. He emailed me back and we winded up buying rings from that B&M (Linde Meyer). She was a pleasure to do business with and I thanked Mr. Atlas when we got back. So if anything, that B&M made a sale due to you. Perhaps those crying should actually read some of your posts. Maybe they would understand that you could be a big help to their business. elle |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 5:44:10 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 5:49:28 PM | |
just-ice Rough Rock Total Posts: 57 Last Post: 9/13/2007 Member Since: 4/24/2004 |
"Traditional retailers are suffering because profits are being squeezed. Sources that used to be strictly wholesale now sell direct. Middlemen are being pushed aside. Retailers with high overheads are wondering what they can do to differentiate themselves from high volume, low overhead and low priced sellers. It isn't just diamonds and jewelry. It is nearly all retailing that has problems." ---------------------- Sorry you are being criticized Dave. You are bringing an absolute wealth of info to many people. And that is truly appreciated. Perhaps that is what "they" have a problem with...we are being educated. And in this computer age and all the technology that goes with it ..purchasing will NEVER be as it used to be. As ethics and honesty seem to be going down the toilet... Knowing there is a place(that would be you) we can send our treasures for an HONEST evaluation.....is priceless. |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 5:49:28 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 5:55:53 PM | |
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Lincoln Rough Rock Total Posts: 33 Last Post: 7/2/2004 Member Since: 5/27/2004 |
Times change, economies change, productivity changes. The diamond industry is not insulated from change. Look what's happening in the music industry - consumers took it upon themselves to advance innovation themselves while the record industry sat back, assuming status quo. Granted, I'm not advocating the practice, but it sure did spur a new way of buying music, huh? There will always be a place for the B&M in the jewelry world.
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 5:55:53 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 9:12:45 PM | |
pqcollectibles Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,441 Last Post: 6/18/2005 Member Since: 2/23/2003 |
As probably most of the "old timer" regulars, I've chatted or emailed with several of the Vendors since finding Price Scope. Whenever Dave Atlas' name comes up in conversation, there is nothing but praise for his ethics and his work from the Vendors. Dave's wit, charm, insight, and expertise are invaluable assets to Price Scope. The only people who need fear him are those who wish to sell diamonds in the shadows of ignorance.  Why use a big word when a diminutive word would be succinct! |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 9:12:45 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 10:17:47 PM | |
lop Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,651 Last Post: 9/7/2009 Member Since: 6/14/2003 |
---------------- |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 10:17:47 PM | |
| P: 7/3/2004 12:10:49 AM | |
Lions, Tigers & Bears Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,107 Last Post: 9/12/2005 Member Since: 10/18/2003 |
---------------- Sad but true. I am looking for a contractor to do work in my home--and my #1 criterion is that the person won't scr*w me. How sad that this is the expectation. I have never felt nor sensed in any of your posts an "anti-retail" sentiment and I am surprised others may feel this way. If retailers *seem* to come out at the short end of the stick, perhaps it's because they sometimes are, for various reasons such as the ones you cite here. And I am a loyal buyer from my local retailer, so if anything, I am biased his way! Personally, I am glad you are here to offer honest and educated opinions, even if that honesty is sometimes hard for some to take. The cliche "the truth hurts" is, well, true.
_____________________________________________ Don't breed or buy when homeless pets continue to die. |
| Posted: 7/3/2004 12:10:49 AM | |
| P: 7/3/2004 8:31:42 AM | |
aljdewey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 8,236 Last Post: 2/11/2008 Member Since: 11/25/2002 |
---------------- I think the key, Dave, is to look at the source of such comments....the disgruntled B&Ms. In their warped thinking, they view you as part of the problem. Why? Because when a reputable, neutral party like yourself participates in something like Pricescope and others, they feel it gives validation to places like P/scope.....almost like an endorsement or a thumbs-up. From the disgruntled B&M perspective, if your participation helps the *enemy* in any way, you are effective on THEIR side. That's sad, because I see you as being on MANY sides......and primarily the consumers! That's the way it should be. Just because someone says something doesn't make it so. Just because they've labeled you anti-retail doesn't make it so. Your contributions are invaluable, Dave. The problem lies not with you, but with the "musket/cannon" antiquated crowd who doesn't want to look at the new weaponry that could help them succeed. If they were smart, they would be looking to you as a resource.....you ARE the pulse of what consumers want. You see first hand what works and what doesn't. If they aren't smart enough, resourceful enough, or OPEN-MINDED enough to step outside their traditional roles and consider new ways to serve their clients, they lose.
_____________________ |
| Posted: 7/3/2004 8:31:42 AM | |
| P: 7/3/2004 3:33:10 PM | |
Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,034 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001 |
I want to second a lot of what Robin and Todd had to say about Old Miner. Many years ago I bought an Old European cut in a trade-in deal for a round brilliant. I tried to sell it cheap on Polygon as I did not have a market for such stones in Boise. After failing to sell it I received a message from a fellow Polygonner who recommended I call David Atlas. I called him and sent him the stone for an offer. He offered about $800 more than I had tried to sell it for. I told him I would accept less as I had already tried to sell it at a lower price but he said that no, this was the fair price for that stone and that is what he would pay. Class act in my book. As a bricks and clicks vendor I had the opportunity to send a stone to David for him to look at. He met my clients on a Saturday (not a normal working day for him, but it was when my clients could be there) and thanked them for the opportunity to see one of Richard Homer's concave faceted sapphires. He made them feel great about a sale from a gemologist's point of view. He even told them very honestly that he did not know pricing on such a stone since there were so few of them and that if they wanted the stone they would have to pay the price that Richard was asking. Class act in my book. As far as I have ever been able to see, both as a retailer and as a seller to David on the types of stones that he specializes in (I have sold him several more over the years and bought a few too) David is one very honest and dependable guy. If some people do not like that he is a resource to all that come to him, then I would say that was their problem, not David's! As our kids would say, Rock on! Wink Wink Jones |
| Posted: 7/3/2004 3:33:10 PM | |
| P: 7/4/2004 4:58:40 PM | |
glitterata Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,365 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/17/2002 |
---------------- What a good story about two honorable businessmen. This is exactly how people should treat each other.
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| Posted: 7/4/2004 4:58:40 PM | |
| P: 7/4/2004 5:21:30 PM | |
noobie Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,318 Last Post: 9/21/2007 Member Since: 3/3/2004 |
In a word.... NO! Absolutely not (Ok , that's three)
Dave, I would never have considered that term when it comes to you. I find your views very balanced and well thought out and thoroughly enjoy reading them. An independent appraiser is just that independent. Offering your best professional judgement without bias and serving your clients is not anti anything, it's doing your job the best way you know how.
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| Posted: 7/4/2004 5:21:30 PM | |
| P: 7/4/2004 5:31:56 PM | |
innerkitten Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,923 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/2/2003 |
They're threatend. I think you're very helpful.
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| Posted: 7/4/2004 5:31:56 PM | |
| P: 7/4/2004 10:23:16 PM | |
Shay37 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,343 Last Post: 8/30/2008 Member Since: 3/2/2004 |
Dave, as an independent appraiser, you are supposed to be completely unbiased and fair. The diamond buyers (in all their myriad forms) are your customers. I would think that to not work for people who bought their diamonds online simply because of the place of purchase, would be to show an incredible bias that would perhaps impinge on your integrity in the industry. I for one am thrilled to read one of your posts because they always teach me something that I did not previously know. If I have noticed a bias at all in your posts, it is toward educating the masses. This is a great thing. If I am going to spend a few thou on a luxury purchase, I would like to know that I got value for my money. You answer that question for your customers (I am one) and for those who congregate here. Keep up the good work. We appreciate you. Shay ______________________________My therapist loves me. His name is Brian the Cutter. |
| Posted: 7/4/2004 10:23:16 PM | |
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