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 » RockyTalky
»  » Would you buy a HoF diamond if it was only 5-10% more?? Should I?
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Would you buy a HoF diamond if it was only 5-10% more?? Should I? |
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| P: 7/1/2004 7:53:10 PM | |
brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
Ok, I have been looking around for ideal cut 1.5-1.6 SI1-2 H-I round. An ideal cut 1.5 H SI1 is usually around $9000-9500 online. I have been speaking with my local B&M jeweler and he understands that I may get one off of the internet so he must compete well on price. He is bringing in a Hearts on Fire diamond for me to look at. HoF 1.507 I SI2 Depth - 61.4 Table - 56 Crown - 35 Pavilion - 41 Thin Girdle No Cutlet No Fluoresence He says, it will be right under $10,000. I still want to see it first, but do you think it would be worth it? I would basically be paying around a $500-1000 premium for the HoF diamond (instead of a 40% premium!) The retail price from HoF on their website for retailers, was $18,700! What do you think of this diamond? If it checks out to be eye clean and looks good, should I do it?? Or should I get a nicer AGS 1.5 diamond? Thanks, -Brandon |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 7:53:10 PM | |
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There are 43 replies to this message. There are 30 replies on this page. |
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| P: 7/1/2004 8:07:37 PM | |
lop Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,651 Last Post: 9/7/2009 Member Since: 6/14/2003 |
I think it depends on what is important to you. If you want to buy locally, this may be a beautiful stone. It boarders on steep and deep (both the crown and pavilion angles are on the steep side, so I would want to see it personally in different lights to see if it gets the dark center of steep stones.) I would also want to really understand the inclusions. You don't want to start seeing them a few weeks from now. I personally wouldn't pay a premium for this stone -- it doesn't sound so special that it would be worth it to me. But then, I don't put a lot of value in brands -- they are often a negative to me because I know I'm paying extra the marketing/brand budget. I'm also comfortable buying from an online vendor having done it several times now. But, if you want to buy locally, this isn't a big premium, regardless of the brand. Just check the stone out carefully, and don't get sucked into the "it's such a deal" psychology. It's a diamond with generally good but not the absolute most spectacular specs. Ther are lots of diamonds with very good to great specs in that price range. Try to forget it's an HoF and then decide if it is what you want.
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:07:37 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 8:09:45 PM | |
Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,919 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
mmm this is interesting.
I believe the HOF Company designates what pricing the retailers need to sell at and if there is movement allowed, I would estimate it to be very small. They have a brand to protect after all. I'm sure they'd be very interested to hear that your jeweler is willing to sell it at a lower amount than they are probably allowing him to?
I would also wonder about the integrity of your jeweler. Sure he wants to compete for internet business, but to be a HOF distributor if he had to sign paperwork on pricing and movement...I wonder if he is honoring it? Make sure this stone is a TRUE HOF and he isn't scamming you!
As for the markup and % ...it's entirely your call. You seem reasonably well-educated in terms of what the costs elsewhere are so only you can determine if it's worth it. I will say that HOF diamonds are nothing special if you are talking a RB....get a H&A online and chances are you will save $$ and it will look just like that marked up HOF. As far as I know, they only show hearts...what about arrow patterns??
mmmm intriguing.
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:09:45 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 8:11:02 PM | |
diamond desperate Rough Rock Total Posts: 9 Last Post: 7/1/2004 Member Since: 7/1/2004 |
I agree. The HofF is just a gimmick to bump the price up. You can find the same stone elsewhere, with the same cut for less.
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:11:02 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 8:27:31 PM | |
quaeritur Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,238 Last Post: 2/3/2005 Member Since: 3/12/2004 |
As others have said, I'd be cautious of the 35/41 angles. It could be a nice stone, or it could have light leakage under the table. Make sure you're comfortable about that. Also, make sure you can't see the inclusions/they don't bother you. SI2 can be pretty borderline sometimes. Finally, my local jeweler carries the HoF brand, and to be painfully honest, I was not overly impressed by the ones I looked at. I've seen non-branded H&As that easily outperformed the HoF, without the markup. If it were a brand that I really believed had great performance to begin with, I might go for the 5-10% markup and think it was a great deal, but I just don't feel that way about this particular brand. Again, that's my personal opinion. If you see this stone and it just makes your day, then trust your eyes, but do make sure it really is a HoF. I find it unlikely that the jeweler has this much wiggle room with that particular brand.
quaeritur |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:27:31 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 8:28:54 PM | |
Dancing Fire Ideal Rock Total Posts: 10,221 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/3/2004 |
brandonb, HOF is no different than any other ags cert 0 cut with hearts and arrows. they will tell you it's the best cut diamond in the world. i agree with everything that LOP says on the above message. if you can live with the premium and like the stone, nothing wrong with that. it is always harder to find a "mind clean" stone than a eye clean stone. |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:28:54 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 8:31:25 PM | |
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Dancing Fire Ideal Rock Total Posts: 10,221 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/3/2004 |
---------------- mara, the hof that i've seen, they do come with nice arrow patterns. but nothing special about them, except for the big premium compared to a nonbrand h&a ideal cuts. it is always harder to find a "mind clean" stone than a eye clean stone. |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:31:25 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 8:41:48 PM | |
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quaeritur Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,238 Last Post: 2/3/2005 Member Since: 3/12/2004 |
mara, oh yeah, I meant to say that too. Hearts and arrows are both there on the ones I saw. quaeritur |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:41:48 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 8:45:19 PM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
I am thinking in the same lines as most of you here. My problem is that I really haven't seen a perfectly ideal cut AGS0 diamond. I've seen some good cut AGS/GIA diamonds...and I've seen HoF diamonds. Out of those two, the HoF diamonds are much more beautiful, but I don't have any non-branded H&A diamonds to compare them too. I did think that the pavilion and crown were a bit high. It gave me a 2.2 on the HCA, which was disapointing because I expected the oh so great HoF diamonds to definitely be under 2.0. Also, what about the symmetry? Isn't that one of HoF's trademarks? That all of the facets will be perfectly symmetrical. Thanks for the input so far! -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 8:45:19 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 9:00:49 PM | |
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Dancing Fire Ideal Rock Total Posts: 10,221 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/3/2004 |
---------------- Brandon all HOF comes with AGS cert ideal 0 cut,which means ideal symmetry,ideal polish,ideal proportions,again no different than any other stone with a AGS cert ideal 0 with a true H&A patterns. it is always harder to find a "mind clean" stone than a eye clean stone. |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 9:00:49 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 9:23:52 PM | |
pqcollectibles Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,441 Last Post: 6/18/2005 Member Since: 2/23/2003 |
One thought about the pricing. Maybe (??) your jeweler knows someone who took this diamond in on trade or purchased it on the secondary market. Maybe that's why the price is relatively "attractive" compared to full retail.  No doubt the diamond is beautiful. You got a good HCA score. That diamond will out perform most anything you are gonna see out in public. But, with AGS and GIA so up in the air about the future of cut grading, I personally would stick with a more traditional crown/pavillion angles combo. 
Why use a big word when a diminutive word would be succinct! |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 9:23:52 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 9:33:22 PM | |
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
How about THIS or THIS ? It seems that the price is higher than what H&A pieces with one grade up (either color and clarity, since I could not find a perfect match)... And with all stats in place, do you think these stones could be worse than the HOF? I would think the HOF stone you liked is a good model for these and you can see for yourself, I suppose. Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 9:33:22 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:03:07 PM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
Valeria...those stones at WhiteFlash do look really nice. I have been working with Denise from WF and am close to picking out a few. But, the nice thing about the local store here is that I can inspect them first and won't have to worry about any shipping problems or anything else that comes from shopping on the Internet. I am still up in the air though. But is their really that much difference between an H and I or SI1 and SI2?? Not from what I've seen. Today I saw a G next to an I, the G was HoF and the I was AGS0 and I couldn't tell a difference in color. So if I am really paying about the same price, then I would rather have the HoF diamond. Because when it comes to my future fiance and everyone she knows looking at it, they won't care what the table or depth is, but if you say it's a Hearts on Fire, they will be impressed. But, this one may not even check out. The crown and pavilion angles are a little steep and I could find a better cut stone out there for the same price. So we'll see... Thanks, -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:03:07 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:07:55 PM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
Valeria and others... I have a questions regarding these two you picked out: http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=GIA-13148735# http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=AGS-5130402# If you look at the ideal scope, how can you tell which one is better? Thanks, -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:07:55 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:32:14 PM | |
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Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,919 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
mmm personally I don't think the HOF name carries much weight out in public. Sure they have done some advertising here and there but I bet you mention it to 10 people and about 3 will know what you are talking about.
when people compliment my diamond, I tell them it's within the top 5% diamonds in the world...that's pretty impressive!
 not like they know what it means anyway, they just know it sparkles. i have an almost-ACA...it shows H&A patterns that are very nice and crisp and has an idealscope with 0 leakage typical of an ACA, but for whatever reason it did not make the ACA grade. it was cheaper too.  on those two IS images, both are very hot..to try to compare them and pick them apart would be difficult. I would look at the angles and your budget and make a decision based on that!
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:32:14 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:40:43 PM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
How would I compare the angles? Also, does the white around the edges of those ideal scopes mean its leaking light? Thanks, -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:40:43 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:45:13 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Good question! The one clear thing about these two pictures is that tehy were taken with different lighting... each shows a nice stone in it's own right. All measurements of these two seem to be so close that seeking differences of cut would likely not be a very effective exercise. But... both these stones are SIs so I wish I could see what the cert of the H-SI2 looks like. It could well be that this stone is actually cleaner, but there is not enough to go on. This is where I would expect one piece to appear clearly better - not the cut.  Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:45:13 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:48:33 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
---------------- Yes... but this is a characteristic of the RBC cut and not regarded as a detraction.  It would be really splitting the respective hair to seek differences between these two Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:48:33 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:51:41 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
I wish I has some inclusion maps or pics to see what's behind the dots circled in white below - especially the "stuff" near the girdle of the SI1 stone. Those look like water drops more than anything! Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:51:41 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:58:16 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
BTW... the GIA stone seems to have just ever so slightly breached the White Flash code for "Harts and Arrows" - As far as I can guess from the Iscope picture (there is a white speck between two arrows, at about 1 o'clock circled above), one of the harts may be a hair off, even if all arrows are in place. My guess? WF may be one of the very few places (outside Japan?) that would not call this H&A (or “A Cut Above” as their labels go). Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:58:16 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 10:58:23 PM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
The GIA stone has an inclustion map on the GIA report. Does that tell you anything? You guys are amazing. How do you see and notice all these little things!! Thanks! -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 10:58:23 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 11:07:53 PM | |
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valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003 |
Yeah... I was just looking at it The fluorescence seems a nice bonus - it is just one more excuse to expect the aparent color of these two stones the be really the same. And this clear away the large cloudy patch on the Iscope picture - that should be some photographic anomaly - otherwise the patch would correspond to "something" on the inclusions plot or the "commentys' on the GIA cert. On the other hand, the main inclusion is not all that aparent on the 'scope - so I would hope that a magnified picture would show even less of it (transparent inclusions show dark on the Ideal scope - as far as I know). Hope this helps  Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian] |
| Posted: 7/1/2004 11:07:53 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 11:17:07 PM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
I'm confused...how does that fluoresence affect the color? Is it a good or bad thing? I'm also confused about the cloudy patch and the other photographic anomaly thing you said!! Sorry, I'm still a newbie, but I really, really appreciate your help so far!Thanks, -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 11:17:07 PM | |
| P: 7/1/2004 11:18:26 PM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
Also, for reference and in case you have some reccomendations , I want to keep the diamond under $10,000. Thanks again! -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/1/2004 11:18:26 PM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 1:07:15 AM | |
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Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,919 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
cool i hope it turns out great and you buy it. I have been eyeing that thing for MONTHS.
alas it's not in the cards yet. ________________________________ |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 1:07:15 AM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 1:48:23 AM | |
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brandonb Cut Rock Total Posts: 116 Last Post: 8/23/2004 Member Since: 6/21/2004 |
What do you think of the inclusions? It seems to be like a lot, especially on the table. If Alexa sends me some pictures of it, I will post them for you. Thanks, -Brandon
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 1:48:23 AM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 3:08:44 AM | |
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Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,919 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
you may be surprised at what the sparkle of an excellently cut RB will hide. the inclusions look to be small and if they are WHITE vs black carbon then chances are very slim you will see them, especially since I'd like to see anyone really try to stare into the heart of the table of an excellently cut stone and actually have your eye focus on any one thing. when i try that with my stone, it just jumps all over the place because the sparkle is going all over the place too. some say the table is the best place for hidden inclusions because of that prism effect. others prefer them on the edges where you can prong them. but again, if they are white inclusions and small, chances are slim you'd see them. this is what my stone has. a great SI2 with white inclusions, yummy!
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 3:08:44 AM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 3:24:10 AM | |
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Dancing Fire Ideal Rock Total Posts: 10,221 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/3/2004 |
---------------- Mara my 3 ct rb si1 has a dark inclusion in the center of the table and i still can't see without a loupe,even though i know where to look. it is always harder to find a "mind clean" stone than a eye clean stone. |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 3:24:10 AM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 6:56:36 AM | |
aljdewey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 8,236 Last Post: 2/11/2008 Member Since: 11/25/2002 |
Brandon, all of us can sit here and speculate all day long with respect to the IS images, but you'd be much better served by picking up the phone and talking to someone at WF. They have these two diamonds in house.....they can pull both, look at them, and tell you which one is a better pick. They are spot-on honest, and they tell it like it is.
Getting their feedback would be much more meaningful in the decision making process.
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 6:56:36 AM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 9:33:39 AM | |
Paul-Antwerp Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,908 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/3/2002 |
It may be a bit late in the discussion, but I would like to reply to the original question. You are comparing a HOF I-SI2, with ideal cut H-SI1's. There is a serious basic price difference between H and I-colour, and between SI1 and SI2. If you take the basic price of I-SI2 at a ratio of 100, then an I-SI1 is about 115, an H-SI2 is about 111 and an H-SI1 is about 130. Therefore, you cannot directly compare an I-SI2 with an H-SI1. The second one has inherently a 30% higher price, so if you get the I-SI2 at the same price, you are paying a premium of 30%. Live long, Paul Slegers |
| Posted: 7/2/2004 9:33:39 AM | |
| P: 7/2/2004 9:43:33 AM | |
fire&ice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,827 Last Post: 3/30/2009 Member Since: 7/22/2002 |
---------------- Hey, what he said. And, said so well! HOF isn't all that and a bag of chips.
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| Posted: 7/2/2004 9:43:33 AM | |
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