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ť Are they lying about H&A??

Are they lying about H&A??

P: 2/18/2004 5:50:18 PM
diamond_buyer_2004 Rough Rock Total Posts: 23 Last Post: 4/27/2004 Member Since: 2/18/2004	I have been shopping for an H&A diamond for the last two months (at several vendors recommended by this sight), and most of their "certified H&A" diamonds that I have looked at either online or in person have made me a concerned buyer with regard to information on the site: http://www.pricescope.com/hearts_grading_hearts.asp This page states that if there are "more than 2 hearts split at more than 8% (at the cleft) then it will not make the grade True Hearts." However, I have studied the H&A images from several vendors using Photoshop and found that in many, if not most, cases diamonds being sold as true H&A's did not live up to this standard. I will not name names as that is not the point of this thread, but WHAT GIVES?
Posted: 2/18/2004 5:50:18 PM

There are 23 replies to this message. There are 23 replies on this page.

P: 2/18/2004 6:21:27 PM
begtets Rough Rock Total Posts: 13 Last Post: 2/18/2004 Member Since: 2/9/2004	by amazing coincidence i met a renowned european diamond dealer socially. (he had no idea i was in the market for diamonds). he said that H&A premiums were questionable. he said that diamonds were cut to H&A even to the deterement of the overall brillant cut of the diamond. if i understood him correctly he said that H&A were a company that marketed this cut and that it was just another fashion; there have been numerous cuts that have been all the rage of their time. the part of this that interests me was that he believed many diamonds were cut into a H&A arrangement and that this was not always the best cut for the diamond. he did say if you really like H&A then go for it but don't pay a premium over other very good / excellent cuts. this of course could be crap, it is only an opinion but an interesting one for me anyway. plav
Posted: 2/18/2004 6:21:27 PM

P: 2/18/2004 7:00:20 PM
Bagpuss Ideal Rock Total Posts: 830 Last Post: 11/27/2005 Member Since: 9/10/2003	---------------- On 2/18/2004 6:21:27 PM begtets wrote: the part of this that interests me was that he believed many diamonds were cut into a H&A arrangement and that this was not always the best cut for the diamond. ---------------- I was under the impression that H&A is not a particular cut, as such, but refers to the symmetry of the diamond. You can have a H&A diamond that is not an ideal cut, that is, is not cut to give the best light return. Some people like to have perfect symmetry, while others are happy with less than perfect symmetry, but insist on the best light return they can get from their chosen diamond. Of course, some want both! ----------------------------- Bagpuss
Posted: 2/18/2004 7:00:20 PM

P: 2/18/2004 7:00:23 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	One thing to keep in mind is that a very slight tilt of the diamond will throw the image off. Some venders seem to take more care in taking their photos than others. If its a diamond your interested in ask that another photo be taken. Maybe someone with the right equipment can take some heart photos at various tilts and post them. That said some of the vendors have higher standards on what is h&a for example niceice is so picky about it that diamonds that even looking at the image blown up look perfect to me and they will list them as almost h&a. Iv looked at diamond heart images at other non-ps members sites that were called h&a and yea they had hearts if you looked at the picture cross eyed at a 30 degree angle at high noon and used your imagination you could see hearts sorta. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 2/18/2004 7:00:23 PM

P: 2/18/2004 9:20:31 PM
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003	---------------- On 2/18/2004 6:21:27 PM begtets wrote: if I understood him correctly he said that H&A were a company that marketed this cut and that it was just another fashion; there have been numerous cuts that have been all the rage of their time. ---------------- Just a thought, of course... H&A cuts have not been around for long enough to make tem into the stuff of legend. And, yes, quite a few branded cuts go in and out of sympathy all the time. There is no shortage of diamond cut patents awaiting in line... However, there is no single company making H&A diamonds: this may have started as a brand name, but by now the concept of cutting diamonds to enhance their optics in this way got popular enough to have H&A diamond turned out by many makers. And, sure so, not all harts and arrows are created equal, as you have seen. I believe that the harts and arrows pattern is a great "tool" to understand and judge a diamond's cut quality, since truly exact harts and arrows are not to be found all over the place. Also, the H&A "name" has one advantage over many of the other branded cuts: the fact that this pattern is not simply a design gimmick (as the different novelties introduced by perishable branded cuts might be) but the by-product of cutting proportions meant to optimize light return. Of course, it is up to you to judge what is the last notch of harts and arrows "perfection" worse, and at what point perfectionism costs more than it's worth. Since "H&A" came under quite a few brands and pedigrees, there is a wide choice of quality. I would say it is useful to have tight rules about what a top H&A cut is: the pattern itself appears in most RBCs, more or less distorted so it makes a great reference of quality, whatever that extra tenth of a millimeter in a hart's notch is worth Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian]
Posted: 2/18/2004 9:20:31 PM

P: 2/18/2004 10:22:16 PM
pqcollectibles Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,441 Last Post: 6/18/2005 Member Since: 2/23/2003	Hearts and Arrows is not a Brand designation. It's a Cut. Diamonds cut with optimum internal symmetry display clean, crisp, true Heart and Arrows patterns. There are companies, such as White Flash and 8*, that cut their own line of Hearts and Arrows diamonds. There are other companies, such as SuperbCert, that contract with wholesalers and cutters to procure Hearts and Arrows diamonds. There are Vendors, such as Good Old Gold, Nice Ice, and others, who work with distributers to pick the cream of the crop stones. They purchase, evaluate, and market Hearts and Arrows diamonds. Hearts and Arrows is also a marketing ploy. A diamond that exhibits the patterns, not necessarily clean and crisp, can have the girdle laser inscribed "H&A" before it is submitted to a grading Lab for Certification. The Cert Lab does not grade for Hearts and Arrows pattern, but notes the H&A inscription that is present on the girdle. The diamond is then, advertised as a Hearts and Arrows diamond when, in reality, it is not a TRUE H&A. Why use a big word when a diminutive word would be succinct! ____________________________________________________________ Just a regular person trying to be helpful. Consult a Pro prior to purchase!
Posted: 2/18/2004 10:22:16 PM

P: 2/19/2004 4:59:35 AM
QueenMum Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,971 Last Post: 10/28/2009 Member Since: 2/13/2003	---------------- On 2/18/2004 6:21:27 PM begtets wrote: by amazing coincidence i met a renowned european diamond dealer socially. (he had no idea i was in the market for diamonds). he said that H&A premiums were questionable. he said that diamonds were cut to H&A even to the deterement of the overall brillant cut of the diamond. if i understood him correctly he said that H&A were a company that marketed this cut and that it was just another fashion; there have been numerous cuts that have been all the rage of their time. the part of this that interests me was that he believed many diamonds were cut into a H&A arrangement and that this was not always the best cut for the diamond. he did say if you really like H&A then go for it but don't pay a premium over other very good / excellent cuts. this of course could be crap, it is only an opinion but an interesting one for me anyway. ---------------- It could be possible. When you look at this certificate, you can tell that the cutter was looking for a perfect optical symmetry, but he didn't obtain the best grade at the GIA. Stephan
Posted: 2/19/2004 4:59:35 AM

P: 2/19/2004 4:00:40 PM
Pyramid Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,914 Last Post: 11/11/2009 Member Since: 11/10/2002	---------------- On 2/18/2004 5:50:18 PM diamond_buyer_2004 wrote: This page states that if there are 'more than 2 hearts split at more than 8% (at the cleft) then it will not make the grade True Hearts.' However, I have studied the H&A images from several vendors using Photoshop and found that in many, if not most, cases diamonds being sold as true H&A's did not live up to this standard. I will not name names as that is not the point of this thread, but WHAT GIVES? ---------------- http://www.pricescope.com/hearts_grading_hearts.asp Interesting, I notice the same thing when looking a websites with H&A diamonds for sale.
Posted: 2/19/2004 4:00:40 PM

P: 2/19/2004 5:22:51 PM
Rank Amateur Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,547 Last Post: 5/5/2009 Member Since: 2/26/2003	Remember that there is no certification for "true hearts and arrows". It is in the eye of the beholder. On a side note it has always bugged me that if the cutter inscribes H&A on the girdle the lab cert will come back with "H&A" in the comments section. To the unwitting consumer it looks as though GIA or AGS has "awarded" an H&A grade when in fact they are only reporting the lettering they found inscribed.
Posted: 2/19/2004 5:22:51 PM

P: 2/19/2004 6:08:56 PM
Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,893 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002	YES H&A is widely used when it should only be designated to a select few stones which exhibit the untainted and crisp patterns. Even some vendors who sell mostly exceptional H&A sometimes have one or two that looks questionable to me. It's all about the eye of the beholder. IMO don't settle for imperfect H&A if you are paying that premium. If you are not paying a premium, then you may be more than happy with what I like to call an 'almost H&A' which may display some strongly clefted hearts or similar. Visual difference between and almost H&A and a true H&A? Unknown...but I bet it will be negligible IF the diamond's other parameters fit your requirements bill in terms of cut excellence. ________________________________ "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -Albert Einstein
Posted: 2/19/2004 6:08:56 PM

P: 2/19/2004 8:14:38 PM
DiamondLil Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,405 Last Post: 6/1/2006 Member Since: 6/8/2003	---------------- On 2/19/2004 5:22:51 PM Rank Amateur wrote: Remember that there is no certification for 'true hearts and arrows'. It is in the eye of the beholder. On a side note it has always bugged me that if the cutter inscribes H&A on the girdle the lab cert will come back with 'H&A' in the comments section. To the unwitting consumer it looks as though GIA or AGS has 'awarded' an H&A grade when in fact they are only reporting the lettering they found inscribed. ---------------- Along the same lines, is the above diamond inscribed 8* even though it is not? Diamondlil DiamondLil ________________ "Diamonds are nothing more than chunks of coal that stuck to their jobs."
Posted: 2/19/2004 8:14:38 PM

P: 2/19/2004 9:23:27 PM
Rank Amateur Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,547 Last Post: 5/5/2009 Member Since: 2/26/2003	I suppose you could inscribe it to read 8* or EightStar and the GIA would report it as it sees it. Copyrights and Trademarks be damned! I don't see anything on the above posted cert that makes me feel like its associated stone is NOT an EightStar. I think it was posted to show an example of a Good/VeryGood polish/symmetry grade rather than Ex/Ex. EightStars are kind of wierd in this way.
Posted: 2/19/2004 9:23:27 PM

P: 2/19/2004 9:34:27 PM
Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,893 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002	Yes, also it has been noted to me by an expert that the reason that EightStar uses GIA certs is because their stones may not score well on an AGS cut grade scale. For example, this Eightstar stone posted only has GD/VG Pol/Symm. On and AGS cert, it would not get the AGS0 ideal grading. How do you justify a 40% markup on a H&A stone that is supposedly superideal that does not have ID/ID and is not AGS0 but maybe rather AGS1 or AGS2? Some food for thought. ________________________________ "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -Albert Einstein
Posted: 2/19/2004 9:34:27 PM

P: 2/19/2004 10:36:03 PM
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003	---------------- On 2/19/2004 9:34:27 PM Mara wrote: For example, this Eightstar stone posted only has GD/VG Pol/Symm. On and AGS cert, it would not get the AGS0 ideal grading. How do you justify a 40% markup on a H&A stone that is supposedly superideal that does not have ID/ID and is not AGS0 but maybe rather AGS1 or AGS2? Some food for thought. ---------------- Interesing... Iguess there is NO easy way to jstify such a premium. Some thoretically credible justification is readily feasible though: There are enough degrees of freedom in RBC optics to allow for both he AGS and Eight Star system o cut quality parameters (aca constraints) to work Meaning... that combining ALL available cut quality criteria will just produce a SMALLER range of parameters, not better light return. Not sure wether optimization models make great poster adds ! Do they, Mara ? Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian]
Posted: 2/19/2004 10:36:03 PM

P: 2/21/2004 4:52:28 AM
Pyramid Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,914 Last Post: 11/11/2009 Member Since: 11/10/2002	http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28510&highlight=japan+h%26A According to the above post which niceice wrote there is a grading system in Japan for H&A pattern. This is what puts me off buying a H&A and paying the premium for it.
Posted: 2/21/2004 4:52:28 AM

P: 2/22/2004 4:48:16 AM
BrianTheCutter Cut Rock Total Posts: 146 Last Post: 12/19/2008 Member Since: 7/26/2002	Hi diamond_buyer_2004: Let me explain things from a cutters point of view through a time line of events: When A CUT ABOVE was introduced to the market, we set certain criteria for the product - we started out with mainly GIA certificates indicating GIA Excellent, Very good or Good, polish or symmetry. There were some that were graded by the AGS which were always AGS000. They always had a truly symmetrical Heart and Arrows patterning In the summer of 1999 it became available to the consumer via the internet, becoming the first branded hearts and arrows diamond to be sold online. As other companies started to sell similar products online, the criteria were tightened and the standard was raised. We decided to improve what was sold, as is part of any product development. We decided to accept nothing less than Ideal (AGS000) for polish, symmetry and cut or GIA Excellent Excellent, in addition to the always true H&As patterning In the early part of 2000 we petitioned the grading labs to grade the hearts and arrows. I worked with a team of people (manufacturers, wholesalers etc. and a major lab here in the USA who were very keen to institute these standards) and we came up with some definite criteria. The end result is what is in the link you posted http://www.pricescope.com/hearts_grading_hearts.asp Despite the fact that one of the laboratories indicated an interest in proceeding, the request to grade hearts and arrows did not come to fruition. I know this was stopped due to political pressure from heavyweights within the diamond trade itself. We were so close yet so far Our product continues to set the standard of what should be a true heart and arrow and we have stuck to these grading standards. Ideal Polish, Ideal Symmetry, and Ideal proportions and True Hearts and Arrows. These are strict standards and are not easy to attain. Just as the clarity, color, polish and symmetry (meaning meet point) are graded, we strongly believe that the optical symmetry (hearts and arrows) should be too . Otherwise the grading of hearts and arrows is open to abuse and the consumer will lose as so many have already, paying premiums for wannabe or non H&As. Dont become another statistic and buy a stone that does not conform to these standards - dont be misled. Brian Gavin Whiteflash.com Co-Founder and Executive Vice President through December, 2008
Posted: 2/22/2004 4:48:16 AM

P: 2/22/2004 4:57:18 PM
Superidealist Ideal Rock Total Posts: 655 Last Post: 8/23/2006 Member Since: 9/10/2003	I agree with Brian the Cutter. Don't be misled! I, for one, would like to congratulate Brian for producing diamonds with an unmatched consistency in the regularity of their Hearts and Arrows images. Looking over the inventory of A Cut Above diamonds offered at Whitefalsh shows 49 stones with actual Hearts and Arrows images shown (as opposed to the sample diamond photos shown for the rest). These images are remarkable in their consistency! Compare any two of the following diamonds' Hearts and Arrows images. Look as closely as you like. They look absolutely identical! 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 What about the other 12 diamonds? Their Hearts and Arrows images look amazingly alike, too. Compare any two of these Hearts and Arrows images to each other (and to the image Brian posted above). Remarkable! 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Kudos to Brian! That's what I call *True* Hearts and Arrows! D Riley
Posted: 2/22/2004 4:57:18 PM

P: 2/22/2004 10:23:39 PM
BrianTheCutter Cut Rock Total Posts: 146 Last Post: 12/19/2008 Member Since: 7/26/2002	D Riley: Thanks for pulling all those links together. I do want to clarify that the diamond images are the actual images and the H and A pictures are sample images as noted in our disclaimer: http://www.whiteflash.com/policies/disclaimer.aspx Because the grading standards that are adhered to for A CUT ABOVE are so strict, we supply the images by request, which is not that often. The brand guarantees the consistency. The reason that there are vendors supplying each image is because the H and A they are selling does vary and so it is necessary. Brian Gavin Whiteflash.com Co-Founder and Executive Vice President through December, 2008
Posted: 2/22/2004 10:23:39 PM

P: 2/23/2004 8:57:46 AM
valeria101 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 14,048 Last Post: 4/30/2006 Member Since: 8/29/2003	Are stones graded by the Japanese lab for H&A "exactness" available in the US? If one would ask for such a certificate on an ACA, is it obtainable ? Ana "The greatest experts are only as good as the sum total of what they have seen." [Souren Melikian]
Posted: 2/23/2004 8:57:46 AM

P: 2/23/2004 11:24:48 PM
QueenMum Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,971 Last Post: 10/28/2009 Member Since: 2/13/2003	I think that CGL is Japanese, and I once saw one a diamond that received the H&A grade at CGL. The same diamond had only GOOD polish and VG symmetry at the GIA. Stephan
Posted: 2/23/2004 11:24:48 PM

P: 2/24/2004 5:11:37 PM
Superidealist Ideal Rock Total Posts: 655 Last Post: 8/23/2006 Member Since: 9/10/2003	---------------- On 2/22/2004 10:23:39 PM BrianTheCutter wrote: D Riley: Thanks for pulling all those links together. I do want to clarify that the diamond images are the actual images and the H and A pictures are sample images as noted in our disclaimer: http://www.whiteflash.com/policies/disclaimer.aspx ---------------- Sorry about that, Brian. I looked all over the page for some indication that those images were samples but didn't think to click on the terms of use link (at the bottom of every page). I thought you were trying to pull a fast one. My apologies. D Riley
Posted: 2/24/2004 5:11:37 PM

P: 2/24/2004 5:27:07 PM
aljdewey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 8,236 Last Post: 2/11/2008 Member Since: 11/25/2002	---------------- On 2/24/2004 5:11:37 PM Superidealist wrote: ---------------- Sorry about that, Brian. I looked all over the page for some indication that those images were samples but didn't think to click on the terms of use link (at the bottom of every page). I thought you were trying to pull a fast one. My apologies. ---------------- It's just too bad these concerns had to be posed in such a sarcastic, smart-alecky way to begin with. No one has handed WF their strong reputation here....they've earned it, and it's really a shame that reputation doesn't at least give them the "benefit of the doubt" when questioning the integrity of their images. _____________________ Note: Chainsaw Not Sold Separately.
Posted: 2/24/2004 5:27:07 PM

P: 2/24/2004 6:45:40 PM
mike04456 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,441 Last Post: 3/28/2004 Member Since: 11/20/2002	---------------- On 2/22/2004 10:23:39 PM BrianTheCutter wrote: Thanks for pulling all those links together. I do want to clarify that the diamond images are the actual images and the H and A pictures are sample images as noted in our disclaimer: ---------------- Brian, with due respect, I think you need to make that a little clearer. I'm sure no deception was intended, but in all the times I've been to your site, it never occurred to me that your H&A images were anything but the actual stone, especially since you have diamond photos prominantly labeled "sample image" when they aren't the listed diamond.
Posted: 2/24/2004 6:45:40 PM

P: 2/26/2004 6:44:13 PM
Superidealist Ideal Rock Total Posts: 655 Last Post: 8/23/2006 Member Since: 9/10/2003	---------------- On 2/24/2004 6:45:40 PM LawGem wrote: Brian, with due respect, I think you need to make that a little clearer. I'm sure no deception was intended, but in all the times I've been to your site, it never occurred to me that your H&A images were anything but the actual stone, especially since you have diamond photos prominantly labeled 'sample image' when they aren't the listed diamond. ---------------- I agree. I looked for a statement to the effect that the Hearts and Arrows images were samples before posting here and couldn't find it. Even after Brian posted the URL, I had to search the page's souce code to find that the link was the "terms of use" link at the bottom of the page right after "Š 2000-2004 Whiteflash Inc. All rights reserved." The casual shopper isn't going to see that. The small Ideal-Scope images on the pages I linked to above are all identical as well, but even the disclaimer page doesn't mention that they are samples (some diamonds do have actual Ideal-Scope images posted). D Riley
Posted: 2/26/2004 6:44:13 PM

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