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Conflicting opinions?

P: 6/30/2009 5:20:53 PM
NakedFinger Cut Rock Total Posts: 474 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 1/8/2009	Ok so we arent quite at that point yet since we arent married, let alone engaged yet (ring being held hostage in our house, driving me crazy, ), but my FF and I have done a lot of baby talk/family planning lately because we plan on TTC soon after getting married. Well the other day, we were watching 16 and pregant on MTV (nothing else on lol) and the girl was getting an epidural (sp?). So he says "Thats ridiculous, I cant believe anyone would do that. It should be done naturally". So im like "Ummmm what?" So after talking he voiced that he feels extremely strong about not using drugs during labor and how it should be done naturally, that it effects he baby, and that his mom did it naturally and it was done that way way before drugs were made, etc etc. So he's a guy, easy for him to say that because he isnt the one pushing a watermelon out of a lemon! Now I dont say i know for a fact that I will use drugs, and actually do want to try not using them, but I definitely want that option. But I also want to respect his viewpoint/wishes because its his child as well. Anyone else have conflicting opinions on that with their SO? _____________________________ I live vicariously through myself.... "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun." -Katherine Hepburn
Posted: 6/30/2009 5:20:53 PM

There are 24 replies to this message. There are 24 replies on this page.

P: 6/30/2009 5:26:39 PM
fiery Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,122 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 5/18/2008	Child Birth Preparation Class Otherwise known as Lamaze. There are other classes too like the Bradley class that you can take while pregnant. FI wanted me to do what I felt was best for the baby which is why he was kind of pushing natural. After these classes, he learned his role. During the labor process, he's there to support me in order to bring our baby into this world successfully. So if supporting me means holding my hand through 24-48 hours of natural labor or holding my hand while they insert the catheter, then that is what he's going to do. Those classes seriously changed his whole perspective. He finally now even understands why I want a quiet atmosphere with no one but the two of us (and the gagillion nurses/doctors of course) there. Invest in those classes when the time is appropriate. It'll be great for you and for him (he'll also learn the truth about epidurals...all in due time)
Posted: 6/30/2009 5:26:39 PM

P: 6/30/2009 5:40:52 PM
TravelingGal Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,320 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/29/2004	Date: 6/30/2009 5:20:53 PM Author:NakedFinger Ok so we arent quite at that point yet since we arent married, let alone engaged yet (ring being held hostage in our house, driving me crazy, ), but my FF and I have done a lot of baby talk/family planning lately because we plan on TTC soon after getting married. Well the other day, we were watching 16 and pregant on MTV (nothing else on lol) and the girl was getting an epidural (sp?). So he says 'Thats ridiculous, I cant believe anyone would do that. It should be done naturally'. So im like 'Ummmm what?' So after talking he voiced that he feels extremely strong about not using drugs during labor and how it should be done naturally, that it effects he baby, and that his mom did it naturally and it was done that way way before drugs were made, etc etc. So he's a guy, easy for him to say that because he isnt the one pushing a watermelon out of a lemon! Now I dont say i know for a fact that I will use drugs, and actually do want to try not using them, but I definitely want that option. But I also want to respect his viewpoint/wishes because its his child as well. Anyone else have conflicting opinions on that with their SO? I wanted a natural birth. First rule of L&D, go in with an open mind. I ended up with Toxemia and an emergency C, and yes, I did take the epidural at 7 am in the morning (I had offically been in labor since 4 in the afternoon the day before). Tell ya what, give your husband a series of hard punches in the gut with only a minute or two break for 12 consecutive hours. Then ask him if he would like a break and then say, nope, sorry!! Oh, and he has to lay on his back hooked up to all sorts of things while you beat him up. Then take a chopstick and tell him you are going to stick it down his wee wee hole without any drugs and twist it around for the next 3 hours. TGuy would have loved a natural birth. As soon as he saw what I went through, all he wanted was the baby out safe and his wife as comfortable as possible. _______________________ Travel quote of the week: "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
Posted: 6/30/2009 5:40:52 PM

P: 6/30/2009 6:13:51 PM
Pandora II Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,262 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/3/2006	When HE gets to give birth then fine... Frankly, unless HE is planning to give birth, he has no right to tell you how it should/shouldn't be done. Seriously, you have to have an open mind when it comes to giving birth as you just can't predict what might happen. Lots of us here on PS didn't get the birth we were expecting/wanting... If your waters break then they will want to induce you after x number of hours and so that is not so 'natural'. It only happens to 5% of women that they do break before labour starts (oh and to 100% of women giving birth in movies ) My waters broke early and even though contractions started a few hours later they decided to induce after 36 hours as I still hadn't delivered - I asked for the epidural before they started the pitocin (after nearly 40 hours of labour and no sleep I was about finished with the miracle of birth) and the midwives said that they wouldn't recommend having pitocin without one. If DH had protested at that point I would have probably have resorted to physical violence - just so he could share in the pain! I planned to try natural (although I was pretty sure I'd want an epidural), but I wasn't progressing and then my daughter got stuck in my pelvis with her head jammed sideways and so I was rushed to theatre to have a trial of forceps to be followed by a c-section if the forceps failed. If I hadn't already had the epidural in I would probably have ended up with a general anaesthetic as they couldn't have placed one at that point - far worse for the baby. Despite 54 hours in labour, entonox, epidural, both ventouse AND forceps (plus being opiate dependant due to my pain-meds that I had to take throughout pregnancy), my daughter had Apgar scores of 10 and 10. Can't get better than that... My Apgar would have been about a 4 though! Seriously though, I came very close to dying 6 weeks ago in that operating theatre after losing half my blood volume. Lying there in ICU afterwards being pumped full of someone else's blood, my husband and I really didn't care that we hadn't had a 'perfect' birth or that instead of holding my baby straight after birth I'd had to wave her away as I was about to pass out and so didn't see her for several hours - we were just incredibly grateful to be in a hospital in the western world and to all be safe and alive. My mother and my sister both had super-easy times giving birth (my mother had 4, my sister 2 so far) and no-one would ever have guessed that I wouldn't be the same... so just because his mother did x, y, z doesn't mean that you have to do the same.
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:13:51 PM

P: 6/30/2009 6:20:50 PM
fiery Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,122 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 5/18/2008	Date: 6/30/2009 5:40:52 PM Author: TravelingGal Tell ya what, give your husband a series of hard punches in the gut with only a minute or two break for 12 consecutive hours. Then ask him if he would like a break and then say, nope, sorry!! Oh, and he has to lay on his back hooked up to all sorts of things while you beat him up. Then take a chopstick and tell him you are going to stick it down his wee wee hole without any drugs and twist it around for the next 3 hours. Oh em gee See now that is what they should do in the classes instead of having them hold a fist of ice for 60 seconds lol
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:20:50 PM

P: 6/30/2009 6:25:48 PM
cara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,479 Last Post: 11/18/2009 Member Since: 3/21/2006	One of my friend's husband's wanted her to go natural and have a home birth. She did go natural, saying birth was merely "uncomfortable" as she has a ridiculous pain tolerance, but did it in a hospital setting. Her husband was quite insistent about the home birth and had been raised in a more hippie environment but she was equally stubborn, saying my body, my choice, it will be in the hospital in case things go wrong. I'd probably have problems if my husband was trying to dictate something so strongly concerning our child and my body especially if he wasn't asking my opinion or listening to my concerns, but we don't have a relationship of bull-headed people like my friend. Her husband end up supporting her of course and I think was just glad for a healthy child/healthy wife at the end of it, as others have mentioned. is your husband under the impression that nothing will go wrong? That women having been giving birth for millenia by themselves and if you stay home and push "naturally" everything will procede nicely and only if you go to the hospital will you end up with "unnecessary" medical interventions? While there is a grain of truth to my exaggeration (generally natural home birth will end up with less interventions, some of those interventions may have been unwarranted), its not the whole truth and the "extreme strength" of his objection to epi suggests that it is a philosophical or quasi-religious belief not something nuanced as the available data. Natural can be safe (if you are low risk and still attended by someone with some proper medical training and not too far from a hospital if things go wrong) but you need to be in the lucky majority. That's the first hurdle - can't entirely control what happens during birth process or if you end up being in a higher risk group. Second is the actual harm of the epi process versus its medical benefit. While there is are possible downsides to epi, including drugs for your child, there are medical benefits - pain relief among them! That he is so set against them suggests that he is only looking at certain harms and not looking or valuing the upsides. He may have idealized the birth process and then it could be a problem if it ends up deviating from his ideal - I have seen several couples still sad and upset over their births weeks to years after their healthy child/healthy mother c-sections because it didn't go according to plan and they just kept thinking that what had happened was "wrong". Your hubby may also be set on providing a "perfect" environment for his child and not used to the many compromises that will have to be made in raising them (including sometimes prioritizing himself or his wife.) Hopefully these kind of issues you two can address by talking about stuff and compromising. Unless he is anti-medicine in other areas of life too, and used to getting his own way, in which case you all might have a more serious compatibility issue than just this one area. Cause if he's not going to want to vaccinate, or take the kid to the dr's for illnesses, etc., and you see it differently, that will be a big problem. If its just the epi issue, TGal's trial of "labor" sounds like a good place to start
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:25:48 PM

P: 6/30/2009 6:50:07 PM
Tacori E-ring Ideal Rock Total Posts: 16,087 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/15/2005	Date: 6/30/2009 6:13:51 PM Author: Pandora II When HE gets to give birth then fine... Frankly, unless HE is planning to give birth, he has no right to tell you how it should/shouldn't be done. Seriously, you have to have an open mind when it comes to giving birth as you just can't predict what might happen. Lots of us here on PS didn't get the birth we were expecting/wanting... Agreed! First of all it is your right to control your pain management. Second, it will NOT negatively affect your baby OR your labor. My dad does this for a living and I know if there was even a little chance it would have been negative for his daughter or grand daughter he would have told me not to get one. Third, it is painful no matter what. My epi all but wore off and I think even my laid back DH was very uncomfortable seeing me in so much pain. You have to expect the unexpected b/c like most things medically you have little control over the outcome. Luckily my DH only had a strong opinion on BFing and that was after we went to a class and he learned all the benefits it provided. But even when my stubborn girl self-weened at 6.5 months DH never said anything about it. He knows at the end of the day it is my body, my choice. By the way there was a "gagillion" people in my delivery room. B/c of some complications we needed an entire peds team in there to suction out my daughter's lungs RIGHT after birth. My DH didn't even cut the cord. IMHO NONE of that matters (tradition, privacy, sweet movie moments) b/c all you will want is a healthy baby. The rest falls into place.
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:50:07 PM

P: 6/30/2009 7:00:35 PM
packrat Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,789 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/12/2008	Everyone handles pain differently, so there's no saying for sure if you'd even think it was bad enough to need/want an epi-but it should be your decision exclusively. Until someone's experienced the pain involved in labor, it's a bit difficult to say it's ridiculous or think someone's a wuss for wanting pain meds. JD said what he imagined was getting racked in the sack really hard, over and over..the type of pain that radiates. That was his way of trying to find a frame of reference. Men can't imagine it and women can't describe it. I think it's just best for the woman to decide what's best for her and the baby. I ended up w/an emergency C section like TGal after about 40 hours. Sometimes your body just doesn't want to cooperate-I never did dilate past a 4. When you're in labor, the last thing you want to worry about it making someone else happy by not taking meds-you just want to concentrate on bringing your baby into the world in the safest and best way possible.
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:00:35 PM

P: 6/30/2009 9:35:44 PM
Italiahaircolor Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,338 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/17/2007	I am not a mom, nor have I been through L&D...so don't take me to seriously.... But during my first pregnancy, which made it into the 2nd trimester, there was some talk of L&D due to fact that I've had a tummy tuck which causes some complications--things we needed to prep for... My Dr. told me and DH that a successful L&D is one in which both the mother and child are comfortable. Meaning, if drugs are needed--so be it. Not to minic women's rights...but....your body, your choice. ____________________________ Remember to keep your words soft and sweet...you may have to eat them someday.
Posted: 6/30/2009 9:35:44 PM

P: 6/30/2009 9:50:04 PM
neatfreak Ideal Rock Total Posts: 13,455 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 2/17/2007	No uterus-no opinion.
Posted: 6/30/2009 9:50:04 PM

P: 6/30/2009 10:19:27 PM
Kaleigh Ideal Rock Total Posts: 25,906 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 11/18/2004	I think he has the right to an opinion, BUT he's not the one pushing the baby out. So yeah, he doesn't get the final say, YOU DO. ____________________________ Piece of cake and a candle. ng gift
Posted: 6/30/2009 10:19:27 PM

P: 6/30/2009 10:37:41 PM
VegasAngel Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,449 Last Post: 11/10/2009 Member Since: 10/12/2005	Let him put in his .02 & then do whatever the heck you want, he isn't the one doing the hard work. "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly." GK Chesterton
Posted: 6/30/2009 10:37:41 PM

P: 6/30/2009 11:09:40 PM
thing2of2 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,664 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 1/1/2007	Date: 6/30/2009 9:50:04 PM Author: neatfreak No uterus-no opinion. DITTO.
Posted: 6/30/2009 11:09:40 PM

P: 7/1/2009 7:49:34 AM
Dannielle Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,198 Last Post: 10/22/2009 Member Since: 7/8/2008	Date: 6/30/2009 9:50:04 PM Author: neatfreak No uterus-no opinion. Agreed. My FMIL has more than a few opinions though.. but she is a midwife so I suppose she knows what she is talking about Walking down the aisle December 4th, 2010!
Posted: 7/1/2009 7:49:34 AM

P: 7/1/2009 8:16:38 AM
atroop711 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,225 Last Post: 9/19/2009 Member Since: 8/31/2005	Ohhh I have such a strong opinion on this but I won't be bad Honestly it annoys the hell out of me when men (and women) try to guilt a women into no meds during pregnancy. They use HEARSAY and what their mother's did as their experience. You and your fiance need to school yourselves. Best to talk to an OB (my sis is an OB) and get the facts. This is only MY opinion but here is how I feel: The epidural is NOT harmful to a baby..if it were the OBs wouldn't be offering it. Many ppl say that an epidural also slows down labor..not always true. I've been at 5 births and only one of them seemed to take forever. Many times the epidural allows your body to relax (your muscles tend to stiffen when in pain) and allow the dilation to continue. Some women go quicker...so don't. Every delivery is different.. I was at my friends birth where the baby's father said NO MEDS..my friend suffered (she was induced and pitocen makes the contractions stronger) for 12 hrs..she was in agony. He sat there telling her to deal with the pain. UGHhhhhh I was so . Anyway...when he walked out she told me she wanted an epidural. We ordered it before he got back and she was able to sleep and relax. When they gave her the epidural she was 3 cm and 12 hrs into labor induction. After the epidural she went from 3cm to full dilation (10cm) in 4 hrs. Because she was able to rest she had enough energy to push. If she would have listened to SENOR PAIN IN THE A$$ god knows when she would have had the baby. ANYWAY...sorry for the long response. Honestly it's YOUR BODY..he needs to speak to a Dr and find out exactly what a women's body goes through during labor. It's ultimately your decision (I believe). He's not pushing the baby out nor is he dealing with the pain of a natural birth. BTW you can plan a natural birth BUT it always doesn't work out that way. UNFORTUNATELY because of metal in my spine I could never have an epidural but if I could I would have. I'm a huge fan of NO PAIN..but ugh..I had lots of it with 3 births Like I said..it's up to you GL
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:16:38 AM

P: 7/1/2009 8:38:01 AM
Dani Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,604 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 11/12/2004	Date: 6/30/2009 9:50:04 PM Author: neatfreak No uterus-no opinion. LOL, Neat!!!! Big DITTO!!! This is one of my biggest pet peeves on L&D....When the husband is so insistent on making decisions for the patient (especially regarding pain control-UGH)!!!! Some of them are soooo controlling- it sickens me!!!! Usually when its that bad I have him leave the room and then talk to the woman one on one to assess her real feelings on the subject. It can be a sticky situation sometimes!!!!:)
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:38:01 AM

P: 7/1/2009 8:59:08 AM
Tacori E-ring Ideal Rock Total Posts: 16,087 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 8/15/2005	atroop, good point about some women being JUST as bad. I remember talking to a mom I just met at a party and she was very into natural birth (which is fine). Of course she also had a crazy short labor and only had to push for a few minutes. She actually tried to tell me I was a bad mom that I was induced even though I was a week late. I calmly told her actually it was good b/c my water had a great deal of meconium in it and she could have easily gotten very ill. She told me the reason there was meconium was the induction STRESSED my baby out and if I had gone naturally everything would have been fine. Whatever. Of course she was on meds to stop her contrax for months (even though that is medical intervention) and don't get me wrong I AGREE with it but I felt she was being hypocritical. I wanted to tell her so but I am too polite.
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:59:08 AM

P: 7/1/2009 9:13:56 AM
elledizzy5 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,832 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/25/2008	Although FI and I are on the same page, he would never tell me how to give birth! I can't believe the nerve of men who think they get to decide for everyone. He's entitled to his opinon, but he should probably keep it to himself. What meds you take at the hospital has almost nothing to do with him. He will not know any sort of difference during labor if you choose meds or don't... except you might feel BETTER if you do. I think my FI knows better than to tell me "Deal with it" I will go in with an open mind, and I would expect the same from him. ~ Let all the people of the world say what they please I alone know what I do ~
Posted: 7/1/2009 9:13:56 AM

P: 7/1/2009 10:06:03 AM
atroop711 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,225 Last Post: 9/19/2009 Member Since: 8/31/2005	Date: 7/1/2009 8:59:08 AM Author: Tacori E-ring atroop, good point about some women being JUST as bad. I remember talking to a mom I just met at a party and she was very into natural birth (which is fine). Of course she also had a crazy short labor and only had to push for a few minutes. She actually tried to tell me I was a bad mom that I was induced even though I was a week late. I calmly told her actually it was good b/c my water had a great deal of meconium in it and she could have easily gotten very ill. She told me the reason there was meconium was the induction STRESSED my baby out and if I had gone naturally everything would have been fine. Whatever. Of course she was on meds to stop her contrax for months (even though that is medical intervention) and don't get me wrong I AGREE with it but I felt she was being hypocritical. I wanted to tell her so but I am too polite. omg she had lots of nerve trying to put blame on you for the meconium. I had an induction with my 2nd child (8 days late) and NO MECONIUM...so her theory is just that...her theory.
Posted: 7/1/2009 10:06:03 AM

P: 7/1/2009 10:17:03 AM
Bia Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,293 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 3/28/2008	FI has tried pulling this BS with me I've said it before, he's anti-meds because he's a health nut (really just nutty ), so he tries to pre-coach me by saying "Natural is best..." "Women have been giving birth naturally for many, many, many, many years..." "Women in underdeveloped countries pop babies out like it ain't no thing..." you get the gist. In my very honest opinion, he has no say whatsoever. I know myself--as long as my baby is safe--if I am in severe pain, I want the pain to STOP. NOW! So if that means doping me up, by all means...do what you gotta do doc. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it Salvador Dali
Posted: 7/1/2009 10:17:03 AM

P: 7/1/2009 11:00:27 AM
neatfreak Ideal Rock Total Posts: 13,455 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 2/17/2007	Date: 7/1/2009 10:17:03 AM Author: Bia so he tries to pre-coach me by saying 'Natural is best...' 'Women have been giving birth naturally for many, many, many, many years...' 'Women in underdeveloped countries pop babies out like it ain't no thing...' you get the gist. And 1 in 3 women used to die giving birth...
Posted: 7/1/2009 11:00:27 AM

P: 7/1/2009 11:04:49 AM
elledizzy5 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 5,832 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/25/2008	Date: 7/1/2009 11:00:27 AM Author: neatfreak Date: 7/1/2009 10:17:03 AM Author: Bia so he tries to pre-coach me by saying 'Natural is best...' 'Women have been giving birth naturally for many, many, many, many years...' 'Women in underdeveloped countries pop babies out like it ain't no thing...' you get the gist. And 1 in 3 women used to die giving birth... Amen, NF! Tell your FI to check out the infant mortality rate of the countries he's boasting about. ~ Let all the people of the world say what they please I alone know what I do ~
Posted: 7/1/2009 11:04:49 AM

P: 7/1/2009 11:16:03 AM
Bia Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,293 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 3/28/2008	Date: 7/1/2009 11:04:49 AM Author: elledizzy5 Date: 7/1/2009 11:00:27 AM Author: neatfreak Date: 7/1/2009 10:17:03 AM Author: Bia so he tries to pre-coach me by saying 'Natural is best...' 'Women have been giving birth naturally for many, many, many, many years...' 'Women in underdeveloped countries pop babies out like it ain't no thing...' you get the gist. And 1 in 3 women used to die giving birth... Amen, NF! Tell your FI to check out the infant mortality rate of the countries he's boasting about. Ah ha! Thanks for the ammo ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it Salvador Dali
Posted: 7/1/2009 11:16:03 AM

P: 7/1/2009 11:44:00 AM
NakedFinger Cut Rock Total Posts: 474 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 1/8/2009	Thank you ladies for the feedback! I should clarify (since I got everyone worked up, lol) that he isnt insisting that I do it naturally (not pulling a tom cruise and insisting katie have no drugs and not let out a single scream....rrriiiigggghhhtt). I agree with me doing what I feel comfortable with because I am the one giving birth. I would just like to come to a decision together on something that involves our child, and was just surprised he seemed to have such a stong opinion about it (especially because he is one of those "whatever makes you happy babe" kind of guys! ) _____________________________ I live vicariously through myself.... "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun." -Katherine Hepburn
Posted: 7/1/2009 11:44:00 AM

P: 7/1/2009 11:56:59 AM
Bia Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,293 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 3/28/2008	Date: 7/1/2009 11:44:00 AM Author: NakedFinger Thank you ladies for the feedback! I should clarify (since I got everyone worked up, lol) that he isnt insisting that I do it naturally (not pulling a tom cruise and insisting katie have no drugs and not let out a single scream....rrriiiigggghhhtt). I agree with me doing what I feel comfortable with because I am the one giving birth. I would just like to come to a decision together on something that involves our child, and was just surprised he seemed to have such a stong opinion about it (especially because he is one of those 'whatever makes you happy babe' kind of guys! ) THat's great if you can come to the decision together, but ultimately, it's your body and you have to do what makes you most comfortable. I am supremely afraid of giving birth (I dont' like to say that out loud becauise I'm paranoid I might have a harder time getting pregnant if I'm always thinking I'm scared--I can be supersticious ) so I feel that having an epidural available to me will be a necessity. But I also know plenty of women who went natural, and they did fine. My mother, for instance, was only in labor with me for a few hours, and she went completely natural. Who knows, that might be me...but, drugs sound better Personally, I don't know that most men can appreciate the issues we are faced with when we're pregnant--or just issues we face as women in general. Have you even been PMSing sort of hard, and your man just rolls his eyes when you complain (or lash out at him)? Some of these guys just don't get it. eta: btw, I am calling you out in LIW...take a peek ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it Salvador Dali
Posted: 7/1/2009 11:56:59 AM

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