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 » RockyTalky
»  » H&A Subjectivity
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H&A Subjectivity |
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| P: 1/9/2004 1:16:37 PM | |
toolsmack2 Rough Rock Total Posts: 13 Last Post: 2/2/2004 Member Since: 1/5/2004 |
Hello again, Since the H&A designation is subjective and there are no strict guidelines as to what is and isn't an H&A, I'd like some of you to take a look at the hearts on this stone that I obtained from one of PScope's prefered vendors. Since I am a relative nembie to this I was wondering where this fell on the scale of H&A quality. In the middle? Near the bottom? It looks like a nice stone. It got a 2.1 on the HCA. Oh and the stats are 1.2c F VS2 if they are needed. Thanks in advance  
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 1:16:37 PM | |
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There are 11 replies to this message. There are 11 replies on this page. |
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| P: 1/9/2004 2:53:26 PM | |
niceice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,792 Last Post: 7/22/2008 Member Since: 1/29/2003 |
There is a danger in answering this question because the consistency and accuracy of the representation of H&A patterns, Firescope patterns, Symmetriscope patterns, light scope patterns, etc. can vary dramatically based upon how precisely the camera lens was aligned with the center axis of the diamond when the pattern was photographed... With that point understood, we personally would not classify this diamond as being Hearts & Arrows although it clearly exhibits an effect of hearts and arrows. Although the diamond may very well exhibit a perfectly crisp and complete pattern of Hearts & Arrows when evaluated from a slightly different angle or tilt of the camera lens. We hope this makes sense becuase we're not looking for a fight with whichever vendor is representing this diamond! Perhaps they would like to take another picture of the diamond for you... As we see it, there is not enough of a separation between the tips of the hearts and the chevron's located beyond the tips, especially in the three and four o'clock regions of the photograph where the edges of the two patterns tend to blend together... This could also be a matter of focus. In addition, there is tilting / bending in the tips of the hearts, especially the heart located in the twelve o'clock region of the photograph. And the hearts are not evenly and constently shaped... No doubt that the diamond exhibits a pattern of hearts and arrows which is nicer than that exhibited by many of the ideal cut diamonds that we see, but this alone does not mean that the diamond is "Hearts & Arrows" and that it would be graded as such if sent to the Zenhokyo or Central Gemological Laboratory (CGL) in Japan. Perhaps it would be graded as Good to Very Good, but it is doubtful that it would be graded as Excellent and as we see it, it's not Hearts & Arrows unless it is Excellent... This is why we usually indicate on our Diamond Details pages that such diamonds exhibit a "very nice pattern of hearts and arrows, but does not quite meet our selection criteria to be labeled as a Hearts & Arrows diamond". Does this mean that you shouldn't purchase it. No - it may very well be a beautiful stone. What are the measurements for the outside diameter, total depth, table diameter, crown angle, pavilion angle, etc? Does this mean that you shouldn't ask the vendor to send the diamond out with a Gems Fantasy Scope so that you can see the pattern and share it with your fiance? No - because the pattern is pretty good and you should feel free to refer to it however you want. All we're saying is that based upon what we see in the photograph provided by the vendor, we wouldn't consider it to be Hearts & Arrows by our standards which are based upon the original grading practices set forth by the primary and prominent Japanese diamond grading laboratories which established the initial grading practices for Hearts & Arrows diamonds. Todd L. Gray, President |
| Posted: 1/9/2004 2:53:26 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 3:06:46 PM | |
aljdewey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 8,236 Last Post: 2/11/2008 Member Since: 11/25/2002 |
My very amateur guess: It would probably be borderline at best.
H&A pattern at its best means uniform hearts, uniform space between hearts and arrowheads, uniform arrowheads, and CRISP pattern--clear separation between hearts & arrowheads. The picture below demonstrates these qualities.
DISCLAIMER FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS: One can't make any CONCLUSIVE statements based solely on photographs because they can be "off" if the camera isn't aligned "just so" or it the depth-of-field is too limited and the focal point is not mid-range. (sorry for the frustrated photographer-speak!)
Now that that's out of the way.....the picture posted you posted above may be called an H&A by some; others would not consider it an H&A. It certainly shows an H&A effect pattern....but there isn't a clear and consistent separation of the hearts from the arrowheads. Some of them "bleed in" a bit. The pattern is also a bit distorted near the center (almost like bent spokes)....I suspect it's because the pav angle on this stone is 41, and that's the point at which the pattern does begin to distort.
Does that mean this stone isn't a great performer? NO. I had looked at a similar stone myself....all the hearts were spot-on except for one, which was a bit smaller than the others. My appraiser's comment: It may not technically qualify as an H&A because of the smaller heart, but it shouldn't make any visual difference in the light return of the stone.
The reason this stone is a 2.1 is likely due to the 35/41 crown/pav angles. If you moved that pav angle to the 40.9.....it would drop to an HCA of 1.8. Move the pavilion angle down to a 40.8....now it would score 1.4 and be EX-EX-EX-vg.
What should be just as important to you: does the price reflect the pattern characteristics? If the stone above and the stone I posted were the same price...I'd take the stone below every time. If the stone above was price accordingly (lower) because the pattern isn't as crisp.....then I might go with it.
Hope this helps.
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 3:06:46 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 4:51:51 PM | |
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toolsmack2 Rough Rock Total Posts: 13 Last Post: 2/2/2004 Member Since: 1/5/2004 |
Thanks for the replies, I am not trying to say that I need a perfect H&A. I was just trying to gauge where this one stood on the scale. The rest of the measurements are Depth - 60.7% Table - 56% Girdle - 1.0-1.4 Culet - PT Crown Angle - 35 Pav Angle - 41 Polish - ID Sym - ID Flour - None Measurements - 6.96 - 6.99 x 4.24 Again 1.23c F VS2 What is a good price for this "H&A" stone in your opinions? I think the price I was quotoed is pretty reasonable and I'll compare it to what you all say. Thanks.
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 4:51:51 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 4:59:39 PM | |
Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,912 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
Hmm stone numbers look nice.
I would try to keep the pav angle under 41...though. Small thing.
Maybe around $7200 or similar for a stone like this, depending on cut?
Curious as to the vendor because I could not find the stone on Pricescope. Maybe DCD or similar?
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 4:59:39 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 5:35:48 PM | |
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aljdewey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 8,236 Last Post: 2/11/2008 Member Since: 11/25/2002 |
----------------
However, that doesn't take make into account. If the stone is a really good make.....which is seems to be at its measurements....maybe a few hundred more.
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 5:35:48 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 5:41:28 PM | |
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Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,912 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
Yes but it hasn't quite been determined if that is a TRUE H&A stone yet...so...depending on cut, it could be cheaper. Also it's a 2.1 on the HCA.
There is a 1.24 F SI H&A that is $7000 on the cut engine. Depending on if this stone is not quite H&A and excellent quality, I would only pay around the lower $7000 range.
Actually what I would do is look at the 1.24 F SI that may have better images for $1k cheaper (if $8k estimate is correct).
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 5:41:28 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 5:44:23 PM | |
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aljdewey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 8,236 Last Post: 2/11/2008 Member Since: 11/25/2002 |
HA....that's so funny. I JUST sent you an email saying that I thought the 1.24 was a better buy too!
That twin thing again!
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 5:44:23 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 5:48:23 PM | |
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Mara Ideal Rock Total Posts: 27,912 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 10/30/2002 |
I was looking at the email going 'hey i just said the same thing!' haaa.
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 5:48:23 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 5:52:03 PM | |
Rank Amateur Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,547 Last Post: 5/5/2009 Member Since: 2/26/2003 |
MY lab would grade it an H&A. Our motto is, "Good enough for the likes of us!"
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| Posted: 1/9/2004 5:52:03 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 6:38:22 PM | |
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003 |
---------------- Your dog grades diamonds? If it a black lab or a brown lab? ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K |
| Posted: 1/9/2004 6:38:22 PM | |
| P: 1/9/2004 7:08:36 PM | |
canadiangrrl Ideal Rock Total Posts: 787 Last Post: 3/19/2008 Member Since: 6/10/2003 |
I think it's a yellow, M colour Lab. Which is apparently tough to distinguish from the paler D coloured Labs. 
Sursum Corda! |
| Posted: 1/9/2004 7:08:36 PM | |
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