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» Xscope image value, Star pattern visual appeal?

Xscope image value, Star pattern visual appeal?

P: 12/6/2003 6:51:30 PM
jc321 Rough Rock Total Posts: 14 Last Post: 5/18/2004 Member Since: 12/6/2003	Hi all – I’m a Pricescope virgin so please take it easy on me. First off, thanks to all who contribute. I’m about to take the plunge and am looking for a very serious rock. This is a informative site, though I must say it has raised as many questions as it has answered. > > Some Q’s: 1) Is there any concrete evidence from an independent source supporting the idea that a dark red / black, symmetrical star-pattern Firescope / Ideal-scope (etc.) images correlate to a diamond of high brilliance, fire and scintillation? Or do these tools simply measure symmetry? If just symmetry, does good symmetry necessarily correlate strongly with the aforementioned desired characteristics? > > These star pattern images are posted all over this site. The implication seems to be (roughly) that white/gray spots and a lack of symmetry equals light loss which leads to a lesser diamond. Have these tools and assumptions been tested by an independent body or association? I’m especially interested to hear some responses from those that do not sell or make these tools. (No offence to the mfgs. and retailers.) > > 2) This question is completely subjective in nature, however I just want to make sure I’m not completely crazy. Perfectly cut, H&A, 8-star type rocks appear to classified by most online vendors as the best of the best. I know I’m partially crazy but….would anyone else agree with me that a perfect star pattern in a larger, say 2 plus carats is somewhat detrimental to the face on look, due to the amount of “black” created by the star pattern itself? Somehow, I think some “randomness” in the cut adds to the “sparkle”. While I think the pattern and symmetry are neat, do they, to anyone, seem to subtract from the scintillation? - assuming this is the right term. > > Thanks for any input. JC
Posted: 12/6/2003 6:51:30 PM

There are 17 replies to this message. There are 17 replies on this page.

P: 12/8/2003 10:52:23 AM
jc321 Rough Rock Total Posts: 14 Last Post: 5/18/2004 Member Since: 12/6/2003	JC - thank you for providing the forum with such penetrating, thought provoking questions. I would have to agree with you with regard to question # 2. Re the scope images, well we'll have to just cross our fingers and see if someone can comment. Take care, JC
Posted: 12/8/2003 10:52:23 AM

P: 12/8/2003 11:22:55 AM
DiamondExpert Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,243 Last Post: 6/20/2009 Member Since: 1/16/2003	You have a point about faceting patterns, especially in larger stones, in that a larger number of facets will lend themselves to producing more scintillation (sparkle with light or stone movement). Whether or not you want that effect, perhaps at the expense of brilliance, is a personal preference. I personally don't think I would worry about seeing large patches of dark in a 2+ct. stone of 8*/super-ideal cut - it just isn't going to be large enough - I would just enjoy it's great light performance!! - However, I might tend to consider a different cut pattern in a stone 50-100ct! Gary www.diamondexpert.com
Posted: 12/8/2003 11:22:55 AM

P: 12/8/2003 11:41:46 AM
Rank Amateur Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,547 Last Post: 5/5/2009 Member Since: 2/26/2003	---------------- On 12/8/2003 10:52:23 AM jc321 wrote: JC - thank you for providing the forum with such penetrating, thought provoking questions. I would have to agree with you with regard to question # 2. Re the scope images, well we'll have to just cross our fingers and see if someone can comment. Take care, JC ---------------- ???
Posted: 12/8/2003 11:41:46 AM

P: 12/8/2003 11:55:13 AM
glitterata Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,365 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/17/2002	Yeah, that's weird--why is JC paying him/herself compliments?
Posted: 12/8/2003 11:55:13 AM

P: 12/8/2003 12:15:56 PM
canadiangrrl Ideal Rock Total Posts: 787 Last Post: 3/19/2008 Member Since: 6/10/2003	I think he/she's referring to the fact that no one answered his/her questions...check the time of the first post, and the time of the second post. Sursum Corda! Mess with Texas.
Posted: 12/8/2003 12:15:56 PM

P: 12/8/2003 12:43:40 PM
glitterata Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,365 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/17/2002	That was my first thought--sarcasm--but he/she seems to be using multiple typefaces and quote-marky things in the original post, suggesting that he/she is quoting someone? Maybe? Maybe not? Dunno. Anyway, JC DOES raise a good question: Is there any hard evidence from anyone who doesn't sell stones or measuring devices that the measuring devices actually measure what they're supposed to measure--the qualities that make stones beautiful? The question about symmetry is also a good one. Is better symmetry universally perceived as more beautiful? That question is subjective enough that the best thing for JC to do would be to go look at some symmetrical and asymmetrical stones & decide for him/herself whether he/she prefers symmetry.
Posted: 12/8/2003 12:43:40 PM

P: 12/8/2003 12:45:39 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	A lot of your questions can be answered by careful study of the gog website. There is enough information there to answer most of your questions. click The read the comments posted here by owners of a h&a diamonds. That will answer a lot of your other questions. Some of it can only be answered by you looking at them and deciding for yourself. Everyone has different ideas of what looks better to them. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 12/8/2003 12:45:39 PM

P: 12/8/2003 12:54:33 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	also see this thread: click ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 12/8/2003 12:54:33 PM

P: 12/8/2003 1:23:41 PM
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001	Greetings JC and glad to have you aboard. Virgins are always welcome. My responses are below and you will find I am very gentle. ---------------- On 12/6/2003 6:51:30 PM jc321 wrote: Hi all – I’m a Pricescope virgin so please take it easy on me. First off, thanks to all who contribute. I’m about to take the plunge and am looking for a very serious rock. This is a informative site, though I must say it has raised as many questions as it has answered. > > Some Q’s: Questions are good. Shows you're using your noggin. 1) Is there any concrete evidence from an independent source supporting the idea that a dark red / black, symmetrical star-pattern Firescope / Ideal-scope (etc.) images correlate to a diamond of high brilliance, fire and scintillation? Or do these tools simply measure symmetry? At one time we just used a viewer which did not distinguish between dark/light reds. Just blacks, reds & whites. Not too many sellers of diamonds (including ones that post pics of them) do not know how or understand how to interpret what it is they are viewing beyond a rudimentary understanding that white = leakage, while red and black = light return. To correlate that data to the seperate components of brilliance, fire and scintillation takes many years of practice and observance of the diamonds being tested. I would have to admit to you that indeed my own understanding became broadened when my clients pointed out certain facts to me regarding stones in our inventory and the observances they were making. They say necessity is the mother of invention ... well, after shipping various sorts of super ideals to clients, particularly H&A's of varying optical results via BrillianceScope (alot of people, including myself) were scratching our heads why certain types of H&A's were getting lower B'scope results in brilliance, scintillation. After making certain modifications to our red reflector tech. we found, in detail the answers we were looking for. So in short, my "independent sources" came from John Q. Public from all over the country and my study was how brilliance/fire/scintillation results correlated to red reflector technology and the appearance of diamond in direct light conditions. If just symmetry, does good symmetry necessarily correlate strongly with the aforementioned desired characteristics? The aspect of what we know as optical symmetry plays 3 very important roles in the appearance and beauty of the diamond. This type of symmetry can be seen and it's beauty appreciated in soft light conditions, particularly diffuse light conditions as you'd observe on a cloudy day. In those conditions you can see the beautiful symmetry in these stones without any H&A scope or viewer. The arrows observed in diamonds with this type of optical symmetry provide the strongest and most intense bursts of light a person will observe in round brilliant (and Regent) cut diamonds and are responsible for intense fire as observed in direct light conditions. Take a look at BrillianceScope results for any H&A diamond and you'll observer (in the 5 light views) the strongest bursts of light emanating from within the diamond off of the facets constituting the arrows. This is one reason why ideal H&A's will always be more fiery and more attractive than standard ideals. In diffuse light conditions (particularly office & ambient light) The blacks you observe in IS images provide a greater depth of contrast within the H&A diamonds and contributes to the brightness or brilliance of the diamonds in those conditions. See this thread for more info on the subject of contrast brilliance/scintillation. So you see, optical symmetry plays a major role in the appearance of a diamond in each of the light conditions that it is brought into. If you have your heart set on getting the most bang for the buck or the most beautiful diamond possible in all light conditions, in my mind there is only one choice. Having said that let me also say that I have run into non-ideal/ideal rounds with excellent reflective/refractive properties but they are in the minority. Mara & ChrisK's diamond is a fine example. > > These star pattern images are posted all over this site. The implication seems to be (roughly) that white/gray spots and a lack of symmetry equals light loss which leads to a lesser diamond. Have these tools and assumptions been tested by an independent body or association? I’m especially interested to hear some responses from those that do not sell or make these tools. (No offence to the mfgs. and retailers.) > > *Oops. I guess that disqualifies me? Well... since I wrote this much in response I may as well post my thoughts. I do not however sell* my technology. 2) This question is completely subjective in nature, however I just want to make sure I’m not completely crazy. Perfectly cut, H&A, 8-star type rocks appear to classified by most online vendors as the best of the best. I know I’m partially crazy but….would anyone else agree with me that a perfect star pattern in a larger, say 2 plus carats is somewhat detrimental to the face on look, due to the amount of “black” created by the star pattern itself? No. Reasons explained above.** Somehow, I think some “randomness” in the cut adds to the “sparkle”. While I think the pattern and symmetry are neat, do they, to anyone, seem to subtract from the scintillation? - assuming this is the right term. > > Thanks for any input. JC Subtract from the scintillation? HECK NO!!! As a matter of fact the more light directed through the crown at the high & medium angles the more scintillating the diamond will be. This is a fact that can be demonstrated to any laymen by a gemologist who's got the tools to do it. My .02c Rhino Good Old Gold
Posted: 12/8/2003 1:23:41 PM

P: 12/8/2003 4:49:34 PM
jc321 Rough Rock Total Posts: 14 Last Post: 5/18/2004 Member Since: 12/6/2003	Hello all – yes that was me. I was fearful of getting shut out on the reply counter and well…I’m very sensitive.');" height=15 alt="Insert smilie " src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif" width=15 border=0> Diamondexpert, Rhino et all - thank you for your responses. I will study/read the links and content in detail. > > I must comment as a “Joe Buyer” who is looking for a beautiful stone - the process is far too difficult!! ');" height=16 alt="Insert smilie " src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/angryfire.gif" width=16 border=0> > > The key things I and a lot of other ordinary Joes are looking for, in addition to size, are fire, brilliance and scintillation. No surprise here, but as we all know, none of these properties appears on a GIA or AGS grading certificate. Yes, I know there have been tools developed to measure this, but they are not used on an ongoing basis by an independent body such as the GIA. The GIA and the AGS only provide numbers that may or may not indicate a good rock. AGS cut grades still do not measure what I care about more than anything else. From my perspective Four C’s, Four Schmees! Give me Carat, Color, F,B and S. Cut? Sure include it, but the average buyer, given the other info would not be that hug up on it. > > Yes, I know some of this is subjective and human visual perception is extremely complicated, but the properties of light can be measured. I’m sure some of these measurements would correlate strongly to brilliance etc. > > This would make life much easier for the consumer and retailer. The diamond cutters however might face a challenge. And for you conspiracy theorists out there - Could the assumed cutters resistance be why the GIA is so slow to provide a grade on fire and brilliance characteristics? > > I’m sure some/all of this has been said before, so just consider it another data point. > > Thanks again, > > JC
Posted: 12/8/2003 4:49:34 PM

P: 12/8/2003 6:04:04 PM
fire&ice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,827 Last Post: 3/30/2009 Member Since: 7/22/2002	---------------- On 12/8/2003 11:41:46 AM Rank Amateur wrote: ---------------- On 12/8/2003 10:52:23 AM jc321 wrote: JC - thank you for providing the forum with such penetrating, thought provoking questions. I would have to agree with you with regard to question # 2. Re the scope images, well we'll have to just cross our fingers and see if someone can comment. Take care, JC ---------------- ??? ---------------- Spittin at the puter screen I don't know how I can get such a laugh from someone I nearly always disagree with. You've got to be an engineer. Nerds with the number. Pratical & precise to a fault. It's that pesky paper transfering to reality. Also edited to add: sorry for highjacking your thread JC.
Posted: 12/8/2003 6:04:04 PM

P: 12/9/2003 2:11:34 PM
jc321 Rough Rock Total Posts: 14 Last Post: 5/18/2004 Member Since: 12/6/2003	Hi Fire&ice - I am not sure whom your comment refers to, Rank Amateur or me. If me, your comments certainly apply. I am an engineer by training, and yep I like the numbers. With such a big ticket purchase some of us anal geeks would find “better” numbers useful. They should/could exist. I am now off to make sure all the clocks in my house are EXACTLY coordinated with the US Naval Master Atomic Clock. Cheers, JC
Posted: 12/9/2003 2:11:34 PM

P: 12/9/2003 2:13:40 PM
DEVO Rough Rock Total Posts: 61 Last Post: 4/19/2004 Member Since: 11/25/2003	You do that too?
Posted: 12/9/2003 2:13:40 PM

P: 12/9/2003 10:54:29 PM
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001	You don't have to take my word for it JC. I can refer you to hundreds of people who've come from all over this country to correlate the data with their own two eyes. Never has a diamond been returned because it did not live up to their expectations with regards to brilliance, fire & scintillation as compared to any diamond they've ever seen. Rhino Rhino Good Old Gold
Posted: 12/9/2003 10:54:29 PM

P: 12/9/2003 11:00:03 PM
Rhino Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,865 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 3/29/2001	Oh and one other tad of info (I'd have to find the quotes). Dr. Eileen Reinitz, one of the directors of GIA research and Pete Yantzer, CEO of AGS have both made VERY favorable comments with regards to red reflector technologies (FireScope tm) and their contribution to cut grading and optical properties. AGS is developing a cut grading system for fancies using this very technology. Al Gilbertson (also works with GIA Research) has developed his own reflector technology using multiple colors. That should tell you something. Rhino Rhino Good Old Gold
Posted: 12/9/2003 11:00:03 PM

P: 12/9/2003 11:52:14 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	---------------- On 12/9/2003 2:11:34 PM jc321 wrote: I am now off to make sure all the clocks in my house are EXACTLY coordinated with the US Naval Master Atomic Clock. Cheers, JC ---------------- Lol I used to do that then I threw my wrist watch away removed all the clocks except for my alarm clock. My computer clock is off by exackly 3.1 seconds right now and It doesnt bug me that much! Well maybe a little :} Id toss the alarm clock also but Id never get up in time for work without it. On saturdays I turn the clock to face the wall and all day neither know or care what time it is unless im on the computer and even then I dont pay attention to it. Even my vcr doesnt have the time set. I eat when im hungry and go to bed when im tired it doesnt matter what the time is. Try it it is really freeing but it will drive you insane the first few weeks! ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 12/9/2003 11:52:14 PM

P: 12/10/2003 7:11:33 PM
jc321 Rough Rock Total Posts: 14 Last Post: 5/18/2004 Member Since: 12/6/2003	To DEVO - Yes I do but only once a week. To Rhino - Thanks Again. I may have to pay a visit, so long as I don't have to drive within eyesight of Yankee Stadium. Strmrdr – Your free and enlightened views on time are simply well beyond any reasonable aspirations this button down, extra starch soul might have. I’ll try though. JC
Posted: 12/10/2003 7:11:33 PM

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