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ť *Paging metal experts* Patented white gold

Paging metal experts Patented white gold

P: 12/8/2008 12:47:21 PM
coatimundi_org Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,312 Last Post: 6/7/2009 Member Since: 12/9/2007	I just bought a little vintage (1930) white gold engraved band. The inside is inscribed "whiterose 18K patd." What were the alloys used in patented white gold? Can you tell me names of other brands? Were these rhodium plated? Thanks! Hopefully oldmancoyote and jewelerman will chime in! Coati, G.G.
Posted: 12/8/2008 12:47:21 PM

There are 14 replies to this message. There are 14 replies on this page.

P: 12/9/2008 8:52:26 AM
coatimundi_org Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,312 Last Post: 6/7/2009 Member Since: 12/9/2007	ka-bump Coati, G.G.
Posted: 12/9/2008 8:52:26 AM

P: 12/9/2008 10:07:16 AM
crown1 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,376 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 11/22/2006	do you think it could be the "whiterose" design that is patented? just a guess as i have no idea but am interested. the next best thing to being wise oneself is to live in a circle of those who are c.s. lewis
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:07:16 AM

P: 12/9/2008 10:46:14 AM
crown1 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,376 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 11/22/2006	i don't know where you purchased your band but i did see a whiterose style band offered on an auction site. that makes me think it may be the engraving style? i did find wg was patented in 1915. i don't know if this helps or not? the next best thing to being wise oneself is to live in a circle of those who are c.s. lewis
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:46:14 AM

P: 12/9/2008 11:54:02 AM
coatimundi_org Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,312 Last Post: 6/7/2009 Member Since: 12/9/2007	Date: 12/9/2008 10:07:16 AM Author: crown1 do you think it could be the 'whiterose' design that is patented? just a guess as i have no idea but am interested. Thanks for your reply crown. That's a very good question. Interesting, maybe the design is patented--makes sense. I'm very curious about the alloy, because the ring does not appear rhodium plated, and I actually hope it's not. I like the appearance of non-rhodium plated white gold, and this seems a bit white for 18k--maybe palladium alloy? Do you know what alloys were commonly used in patented white gold from that period? Is white gold patented today? I'm guessing this was mass-produced and die struck--maybe a popular wedding band design? In any case, it's really sweet and dainty. 1.6ishmm. Coati, G.G.
Posted: 12/9/2008 11:54:02 AM

P: 12/9/2008 3:13:58 PM
Addy Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,915 Last Post: 11/18/2009 Member Since: 10/20/2007	I have a couple of older wedding bands that are white gold. I also wonder the alloy is, they look very different to the antique one I just had remade, and therefore replated. I think WhiteRose is a brand. I have two different rings marked whiterose in them, both are in different designs. I just always assumed it was a brand like Belais, Jabel, and Orange Blossom.
Posted: 12/9/2008 3:13:58 PM

P: 12/9/2008 5:37:04 PM
crown1 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,376 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 11/22/2006	Date: 12/9/2008 11:54:02 AM Author: coatimundi Date: 12/9/2008 10:07:16 AM Author: crown1 do you think it could be the 'whiterose' design that is patented? just a guess as i have no idea but am interested. Thanks for your reply crown. That's a very good question. Interesting, maybe the design is patented--makes sense. I'm very curious about the alloy, because the ring does not appear rhodium plated, and I actually hope it's not. I like the appearance of non-rhodium plated white gold, and this seems a bit white for 18k--maybe palladium alloy? Do you know what alloys were commonly used in patented white gold from that period? Is white gold patented today? I'm guessing this was mass-produced and die struck--maybe a popular wedding band design? In any case, it's really sweet and dainty. 1.6ishmm. i think the alloys were copper and nickel but would have to confirm that. with the changes in alloys due to nickel allergy i don't know about current but i would think the old patent would have expired. don't know any of this for sure. i did read that karatage was not to be on the item if it was not backed up with a hallmark. that may be the answer to whiterose. i have a friend, who was in the jewelry business that her father started way back when. i asked her if she was familiar with the whiterose name and it did not ring a bell. that means nothing just added info. i did google and found no significant facts out there. maybe if you spend more time than i did you might find more. i do take an interest in this type of thing so would love to read more if you find something. good luck! the next best thing to being wise oneself is to live in a circle of those who are c.s. lewis
Posted: 12/9/2008 5:37:04 PM

P: 12/10/2008 6:05:53 PM
oldmancoyote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 754 Last Post: 6/26/2009 Member Since: 8/22/2008	I'm sure there are lots of patented alloys, including some recent manganese-based ones (a lot cheaper than palladium) and a Canadian company came up a few years ago with a (probably platinum-based) 19k white gold alloy that is very white and very hard. However, the alloys themselves don't seem to be broadly advertised. I believe in the 1930s palladium wasn't used as a "whitener"; white golds contained high nickel percentages (very hard, very bright, very allergenic), not requiring rhodium plating.
Posted: 12/10/2008 6:05:53 PM

P: 12/10/2008 7:23:05 PM
coatimundi_org Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,312 Last Post: 6/7/2009 Member Since: 12/9/2007	Thanks oldmancoyote. I have a really sensitive nickel allergy, and the 18k band is not affecting me at all--that's why I thought it might be palladium, but if it was not a commonly used alloy in the 30s, then maybe there's simply a higher gold content in the band. Thanks for the additional info crown--I'm going to do some more research on whiterose. Hey Addy--I'm familiar with Traub, Belais, and Jabel, but not Whiterose. Interested in learning more. Have you posted pictures of your Whiterose bands anywhere on the forum. I'd love to see them. What other vintage bands to you have? Coati, G.G.
Posted: 12/10/2008 7:23:05 PM

P: 12/11/2008 2:48:53 PM
Addy Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,915 Last Post: 11/18/2009 Member Since: 10/20/2007	I don't have photos. I actually sold one recently and haven't worn the other since summer so it's been put away. It has a date engraved in it, 1931 I think. I know nothing about white rose and just assumed it was a brand. Googling it has gotten me nowhere.
Posted: 12/11/2008 2:48:53 PM

P: 12/11/2008 5:41:48 PM
oldmancoyote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 754 Last Post: 6/26/2009 Member Since: 8/22/2008	Date: 12/10/2008 7:23:05 PM Author: coatimundi Thanks oldmancoyote. I have a really sensitive nickel allergy, and the 18k band is not affecting me at all--that's why I thought it might be palladium, but if it was not a commonly used alloy in the 30s, then maybe there's simply a higher gold content in the band. Thanks for the additional info crown--I'm going to do some more research on whiterose. Hey Addy--I'm familiar with Traub, Belais, and Jabel, but not Whiterose. Interested in learning more. Have you posted pictures of your Whiterose bands anywhere on the forum. I'd love to see them. What other vintage bands to you have? You are welcome, Coati. I've been wondering if it could be a platinum alloy - platinum has a pretty good "bleaching" effect on gold, but it's generally not used because of its price. If you really want to find out, one way could be to use a nickel testing kit (available in large pharmacies for a few $); it should contain dimethylglyoxime (dmg) plus a weak acid or ammonium hydroxide solution. The interesting thing about dmg is that it will react forming a red compound with nickel, but a yellow compound with palladium (and a greenish one with platinum, after heating). You may need to replace the weak acid solution in the testing kit with something stronger like a very diluted (50:1) hydrocloric acid solution to get the palladium reaction; there should be no damage to the ring at all, since only microscopic amounts of metal would be needed to get the reaction.
Posted: 12/11/2008 5:41:48 PM

P: 12/11/2008 6:49:24 PM
coatimundi_org Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,312 Last Post: 6/7/2009 Member Since: 12/9/2007	Date: 12/11/2008 5:41:48 PM Author: oldmancoyote You are welcome, Coati. I've been wondering if it could be a platinum alloy - platinum has a pretty good 'bleaching' effect on gold, but it's generally not used because of its price. If you really want to find out, one way could be to use a nickel testing kit (available in large pharmacies for a few $); it should contain dimethylglyoxime (dmg) plus a weak acid or ammonium hydroxide solution. The interesting thing about dmg is that it will react forming a red compound with nickel, but a yellow compound with palladium (and a greenish one with platinum, after heating). You may need to replace the weak acid solution in the testing kit with something stronger like a very diluted (50:1) hydrocloric acid solution to get the palladium reaction; there should be no damage to the ring at all, since only microscopic amounts of metal would be needed to get the reaction. Thanks again oldmancoyote! That's a great idea--sounds fun too! So I'd need to buy additional hydrochloric acid? The kits aren't strong enough eh? Coati, G.G.
Posted: 12/11/2008 6:49:24 PM

P: 12/12/2008 1:48:05 PM
oldmancoyote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 754 Last Post: 6/26/2009 Member Since: 8/22/2008	Sometimes the oxidizing agent supplied in nickel-testing kits is ammonium hydroxide, which won't work at all with palladium and platinum, whereas HCl (or any other mineral acid) will work for all three metals. For detection of platinum and palladium pH has to be below 4, so in theory lemon juice or white vinegar should work as well... I don't know if there is some other reaction between acetic/citric acid and dimethylglyoxime that may bias the results, though.
Posted: 12/12/2008 1:48:05 PM

P: 12/28/2008 3:53:02 PM
Pyramid Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,914 Last Post: 11/11/2009 Member Since: 11/10/2002	I remember reading on these boards that palladium does not make a ring white but more of a grey tone when alloyed with gold so it still needs rhodium plating.
Posted: 12/28/2008 3:53:02 PM

P: 12/30/2008 6:59:08 AM
oldmancoyote Ideal Rock Total Posts: 754 Last Post: 6/26/2009 Member Since: 8/22/2008	Correct, if you want silvery white. However grey gold has its own charm, and it's not much greyer than platinum (says the man that likes platinum patina A LOT). Also - I think most people dislike white golds when they turn yellowish, not grey.
Posted: 12/30/2008 6:59:08 AM

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