New Kitchen Help

[wonka27]

Hi all...my wife and I want to remodel our kitchen this winter. We have been told my brother in law to start thinking about it now...because cabinet orders should be done a month or two in advance, in case of problems. The goal is to do this between xmas and new year. Mostly because I will be home then to help brother in law out. He is a home improvements guy and generally cuts us a break. This will be mutually beneficial because he is very slow in the winter.

I''m going to post some pics of our kitchen as it is. Feel free to throw any ideas out at all. We are not going to go to crazy or thematic. We just want it updated in something simple...and lighter color.

If anyone has any ideas for good resources...let me know as well. Free modeling software, pictures of rennovations, etc. will help us...as we are not very creative

We don''t plan on anything "wild" happening (as far as moving where things will be located). We may try to move and change the type of lighting...but generally that will be it.

 

[wonka27]

Breakfast Bar Thingy?

 

[wonka27]

Area where outside side door and basement door are

 

[wonka27]

Fridge, dw, and sink area

 

[wonka27]

Very old stove!!!

 

[wonka27]

Eat in kitchen

 

[Sundial]

We completely renovated our kitchen last fall and I found the kitchen forum on The Garden Web http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/kitchbath/ to be a very helpful resource. Your kitchen has a nice layout it just needs some updating. Here is our kitchen before the remodel.

 

[Sundial]

Here is the finished result of our remodel. It took about two months start to finish, but we gutted the interior and started over. You can save some money by just having new fronts put on your cabinets if the basic construction is sound and you don''t want to change the floor plan. That''s what we did in our laundry room

 

[wonka27]

Sundial...beautiful kitchen!!! I actually would take your old kitchen...LOL

For an old kitchen, ours is in pretty good shape. The cabinets are solid wood...but I just don''t know if we could use them. I know we could resurface...but I don''t know if I want the pain. Also, where our "breakfast counter" is, I want to add cabinetry there for more storage. So I want it all to match.

Another issue for me is the flooring. I thought about ceramic tile in the kitchen area and pergo in the dining area. I''m wondering if pergo throughout might be best. For cleaning purposes, it definately makes the most sense!

 

[Sundial]

Thanks Wonka. We went from ceramic tile flooring to a Pergo-type (Mohawk) laminate in our kitchen. It is a nice change, but I liked the tile better. The laminate is softer and warmer on the feet, but shows every water drop that hits the floor. To me it is harder to keep clean than ceramic tile. There are so many choices out there. I do like the idea of putting cabinetry where your bar is. What do you plan to use for countertops?

 

[fire&ice]

Your cabinets are simple & basic - in other words - easy to replicate. To change them would be quite an expense.

My ideas - possibly paint the cabinets - definitely change the hardware (pulls & closers)
change the flooring to tile, wood or pergo.
new & updated plastic laminate counters - the options are endless & quite nice these days.

Do as much cosmetic changes (paint, hardware change, counters) as you can - this is the least expensive way of sprucing up a kitchen. Unless you plan on living there for a long long time - don''t do any kitchen upfit that will outprice the neighborhood.

 

[wonka27]

Sun -

See...my sister in law complains about her ceramic tile all the time...not the tile, but the grout between the tiles. Maybe she is nuts...LOL!

Fire -

Thanks for the suggestions. We do plan on staying in our small, humble home. Things can change, but we are happy there now. The cabinet issue is one that is perplexing me. My brother in law, who will be doing the work, keeps suggesting painting or resurfacing. They really are great cabinets, however, I want to make sure we can match if we put something in above the breakfast bar. Also, the pictures don''t show it, but many areas show "seams" between the wood...like things were stacked together. We have some time to think about it, and I''m really not sure. I guess part of me just wants to do something to make the house "ours"!

As for the countertops...I look at that as the variable. Countertops come in so many materials and styles...we really have many choices. I think I''d like to get a general idea of what everything else will cost, and then pick out the countertops that will complete our budget properly.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Wonka - You mentioned software in your initial post and it took be a few days to dig the box out of the closet but we use Better Homes and Gardens Home Designer Deluxe. It's not free unfortuately, but at less than $100 it is great. Here's a link: link.

We are serial remodelers and realized as we started tearing apart a 4 story townhouse that we needed more than graph paper and a few shap pencils. This program works really well; as a matter of fact the first thing we used it on was our kitchen redo. It was interesting to use the 3-D view on the software becuase frequently we would put something together and then "view" it and go "Oh no, that's not right!" or "Yes, that looks nice."

Nothing is perfect but this is pretty good!

Next we do the bathrooms...

 

[Sundial]

Thanks SDL! I can''t tell you how much of a difference it made to get rid of those fluorescent light fixtures! They did put out a lot of light though.

Wonka if you do choose ceramic tile flooring just get a darker grout. I have very light grout in my bathroom and I hate it.

 

[wonka27]

Dee -

Thanks for the suggestion on software. I appreciate it and will look into it.

Sun -

Darker grout....an excellent idea for cleanliness...

 

[Dee*Jay]

Sure Wonka, happy to help!

BTW, if you go the grout route thing that will make the biggest difference in the world is sealing it. And I mean seal the hell out of it! Forget the instructions on the bottle about wiping it with a rag; use a spray bottle and really get the grout lines. Wipe it off and do it again. You'll notice the first time that a lot of the stuff sinks in and that the second time less stuff sinks in. That's when you know that the sealer is has really saturated. Sealing will *help* prevent light grount from staining over time. Our tile guy recommened a brand (of course I can't remember the name of it right now... ) that comes in a dark green bottle with gold lettering that we just got at Home Depot.

Dark grout unfortunately has it's own problems. If you live in an area with hard water, or also depending on what cleaning suplies you use, dark grout can get a white "film" on it. In our case in Chicago it was from the calcium. Yuck! There are cleaners that specifically address this problem but they are so harsh that they have the potential to damage the tile (especially if it's marble or granite.) Ours was so bad from just daily showering (we had 4 X 4 granite tiles in the base of our shower) that after trying everything else we simply had to regrout. And this was after less than two years. What a fun project that was -- NOT!

Honestly, I would pick light grout over dark grout any day after that experience!

 

[wonka27]

Dee -

Thanks for the "grout" lesson. I do appreciate this stuff...as I know nothing. I wouldn''t have even known about sealing grout.

We have much to decide. I actually found a great "simulator" on dupont''s countertop website. shows cabinetry, paint, and countertops all together. You can really mix and match to get ideas. Unfortunately, I picked out about 50 paint colors throughout the color spectrum. I will have to narrow that down 10 fold. They also have a price estimator for their different countertops...which gave me my first lesson on what that would cost.

What do you guys recommend for countertops? I have no problem with laminate, but if I do have the money I may go Corian. Like I said...countertops are the variable where I can just plug in whatever is affordable after all other costs are figured.

 

[Sundial]

Everyone has different experiences and that's why you should check out the kitchen forum of The Garden Web that I referenced in my earlier post. It is the pricescope of kitchen remodeling and you can get a lot of good ideas and input from what others have gone through. We used gray grout with the ceramic tile flooring in our laundry room and upstairs bathrooms. We have hard water and have never sealed it and never had any staining! That was also the case in our kitchen before we went with laminate.

As far as countertops go there are SO many choices and like selecting white gold or platinum each has its pros and cons. A lot of it depends upon the "look" you like and how much you want to spend. There are many many options these days so visit some showrooms . We had ceramic tile before and did not like this at all for counters. Now we have Cambria engineered stone (like granite but less dramatic and no sealing needed) and we put Corian in the laundry room. We are pleased with them both so far.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Wonka -

If you go the Corian route you might as well check out granite too. From what I've found there's not much difference in price and the natural stone always make a gorgeous statement. (If you go the granite route INSIST on viewing and picking your own slabs. DO NOT let some one else do it for you. The are irregularities in granite just like there are in diamonds and what might be "no big deal" to one person will make another person crazy. Think of it like choosing an SI2, LOL!).

I don't know what market your home is in but a granite kitchen can really add to the value. By the same token you don't want to "over improve" but if you have the $ you should consider it.

Dee -

ETA: If you go the granite route you need to seal that too. Same method; spray bottle and wipe-down afterwards.

 

[lost on 5th]

wonka-

it sounds like you are starting down the right track with some good advise above. i think a good approach to take now is to start you wish list

i usually have 3 areas: must have, would like to have, and wish i could have! this will help you develop a budget and items to work towards (as well as provide a method to cut the cost if needed).

some ideas:

floor- given the size of the space and how open it is.. i think you should keep the same material for the whole space. it will help it flow better. if you go tile, i find that a warm gray hides the most dirt

cabinets- i would pick a style and then think about how to get it. the one piece of hardware that will be dated on your existing ones no matter what is the exposed hinge. as for refinishing if you want to go that way, strip & stain will give you the best ware over time. if you go in the direction of new cabinets... you have a lot of wasted space @ the ceiling level that is boxed out which could be storage or a place for decoration ontop of the cabinets.

counters- this is where im picky this is the surface you will most be in contact with, so look at upgrading here. price out corian, zodiaq, and granite (not marble unless you like to refinish and seal on a regular basis!)

for something new backsplash! its a great option for color and or decoration. small tile is always nice (glass tile if the budget is there). or lighting. more light would help a lot. and work in some light under your cabinets on the wall no more working in your shadow!!


anyhow, thats a start.... i have more ideas if you need them

 

[fire&ice]

regarding counter tops - I wouldn''t go granite or corien of somekind UNLESS you really want it and plan on staying in THAT particular house. Don''t overbuild your house and/or area unless you don''t care about investment return aspect. Though some granite has come down in price the difference in our kitchen (small counter space - was $650 vs 3800.00. They make some really nice plastic laminate these days.

On a larger kitchen we did - the difference was 12,000.00 vs 2500.00. The client choose granite. Just price it out and make sure the difference is worth it to you & you can recoup the money if you sell it.

 

[wonka27]

Wow...thanks for all the input.

Lost - I appreciate your thought process. While it is early on...I think the must, maybe, and only if I''m lucky categories are exactly how I think. The "wasted space" comment is well received, as the misses definately wants that space back for her "Department 56" houses during the holidays...which would actually probably be pretty cool. The floor thing is still a mystery. If we do the same thing throughout (which I can see your point with flow)...I''d probably rather go laminate then. I''m having trouble picturing the dinning room set on ceramic tile.

Fire and Dee - Thanks for the advice with countertops. I really plan to check all angles on this. I am assuming we will be in this house forever...but things can change. I am really unfamiliar with the cost of countertops and the differences in material, but I plan to educate myself in the next month.

Let me ask you this...if the project becomes too expensive and I do go the laminate route to stay in budget...can countertops be replaced without damaging cabinetry down the line...if I''d want to upgrade. Just curious? Does it happen often without updating the whole room again?

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 8/19/2006 11:46:45 PM
Author: wonka27
Wow...thanks for all the input.

Let me ask you this...if the project becomes too expensive and I do go the laminate route to stay in budget...can countertops be replaced without damaging cabinetry down the line...if I''d want to upgrade. Just curious? Does it happen often without updating the whole room again?

Yep, you can indeed switch countertops out pretty easily. Just make sure that the silicon (or whatever material) that''s used to adhere the counters to the cabinets in the first place is scored through completely first and that if there''s any prying needed that a cushion of some sort is used between the crobar and the cabinet so that the cabinets don''t get scratched or dented. If you have a backsplash it''s easiest to get that off first. (Unfortunately expect to damage your wall a bit doing that, but if your new backsplash is the same height or even a little higher maybe it won''t matter.)

Remember also that the sink and faucet will also have to be disassembled in the process too, as well as any other things that are "dropped in" to the counter (e.g., if you do a cooktop that sits in the counter or if you have any built in cutting boards; stuff like that).

 

[belle]

since you do plan on staying in the house for the long haul, i would think about solid surface countertops before new cabinets. both are expensive and if i had to choose one or the other, it would be countertops. i just think it would look like you ran out of money if you had nice new cabinets and then laminate countertops.

if your cabinets didn''t look to be in such great shape, i might feel differently but i think resurfacing them would be the better option. with all new hardware and hinges, they will look as good as new. as far as flooring, i vote ceramic tile. it is sooooooo easy to maintain and very durable. there are tons of color and texture options, so you can really get any kind of ''look''. i would go dark grout as well. you will go insane trying to keep light grout clean. deejay mentioned film on dark grout but it sounds like she had hers in the shower where there is water constantly. yours will be in wear areas and dirt is going to be more of an issue. you will be much happier with dark grout.

of course laminate is another option, but it has it''s own issues, as sundial mentioned, especially in the kitchen.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Wonka - I forgot to say that I've been looking at the layout of your kitchen and if you don't change the basic configuration then you really don't have much counter surface so I bet the cost would not be too great even with granite or an engineered solid surface.

One more thing, do you use the "breakfast bar thingy"? If not, you might consider doing away with it. If you need more surface to put or do things on there are some great mobile (or even stationary) butcher blocks with pot racks or other storage underneath that you would probably have plenty of room for without the breakfast bar. Some of these have flip-up ends for even more useful space if you needed it.

BTW, Belle is absolutely right about our grount problem having been in a heavy water useage area.

 

[wonka27]

Belle -

Thanks for the countertop advice. I think we will be able to get decent quality stuff. Maybe not top of the line, but not low end either. We plan on staying here so I want to make things fairly nice. The cabinetry is good solid stuff, but there are other issues as I said. Buying other cabinets for above the "breakfast bar" is a priority as well...and I want it to match. Also, I hadn''t mentioned, the inside of the sink base and the corner base next to it are pretty much destroyed from multiple drain pipe failures over time...including twice this past year. I don''t know if they can be saved anyway. It stinks, but I feel as if biting the bullet will be the best choice here...we will see. Maybe once I see what the bill will be...I will change my mind

Remember, the one positive here is that labor will be cheaper due to the family connection.

Dee -

Thanks for the breakfast bar advice. My only issue with your suggestion is that I don''t want something out of place. I like the counter there...it adds a lot of room to the cluttered other counter areas in the "L" portion of the kitchen. We don''t use it as a traditional "breakfast bar", however, it is awesome for preparing meals, etc. Also, major issue is the fact that there is a baseboard heater underneath. I don''t want to block that by putting something in front of it. I wish I could put cabinets there too...but the countertop only will have to do.

 

[belle]

wonka,
i was just throwing out some budget saving ideas. i am renovating my kitchen as well and had a bit of sticker shock with everything!

i hope you weren''t offended by my suggestions to resurface. i am a saver by nature and i shouldn''t assume everyone else has the same priorities!

new cabinets would absolutely be a great investment and you will be thrilled with the end result. there are so many options in countertops as well. i love the new quartz composites. they are beautiful and not as high maintenance as granite. another thing to take into consideration when picking your countertop is whether or not you want an undermount sink. i love the integrated sinks that corian offers but i really didn''t like the look of corian. for that price, i would easily pick a quartz composite or natural stone.
whew! it is much easier to decide things from this side of the kitchen!

have fun wonka! it''s a lot of work (and mess!!) but very worth it.

 

[wonka27]

Belle -

No offense taken at all! I love the dialog here. Believe me when I tell you that a part of me would love to resurface. I know we could save a ton of money, but it will also take a lot of our time to do. LOL...I just don''t know if I have it in me. And like I said....that along with the whole integration with new cabinet areas in the kitchen are important to me. It is sad...these cabinets we have are solid wood...not particle or even plywood. I''m going to need to think about this more as we price things out. Nothing is set in stone so anything can happen!

I''m getting a feel yet for the "looks" of different countertop. The sinks with corian are really cool. Our first look at HD stunned me when I saw the integrated sink. I thought it was sooooooooooooo cool!!!

I think the MRs. and I need to take a few more trips to a couple places over the next week or two and really get the juices flowing on this thing. I started reading this garden web forum and it is a wealth of info, which is a big help as well.

 

[M155_L337]

It''s a bit of a chore...but did you think of re-staining and putting new handles on your cabinets?

They look like they still may be in good condition and really give to a country look.

 

[belle]

Date: 8/21/2006 11:30:46 PM
Author: wonka27
Belle -

No offense taken at all! I love the dialog here. Believe me when I tell you that a part of me would love to resurface. I know we could save a ton of money, but it will also take a lot of our time to do. LOL...I just don''t know if I have it in me. And like I said....that along with the whole integration with new cabinet areas in the kitchen are important to me. It is sad...these cabinets we have are solid wood...not particle or even plywood. I''m going to need to think about this more as we price things out. Nothing is set in stone so anything can happen!

I''m getting a feel yet for the ''looks'' of different countertop. The sinks with corian are really cool. Our first look at HD stunned me when I saw the integrated sink. I thought it was sooooooooooooo cool!!!

I think the MRs. and I need to take a few more trips to a couple places over the next week or two and really get the juices flowing on this thing. I started reading this garden web forum and it is a wealth of info, which is a big help as well.

cool.

it *is* a lot of work! that''s for sure. take your time and soak up all the info you can. it''s kind of a roller coater labor of love.

i hope you will continue to share your progress. i will be looking forward to it!