why can''t this be a science?

[newcomer]

Hello,
I would like to buy a pair of earrings with the following configuration -

0.78 to 0.80 ct each,
F Color,
VS1,
55-58% Table,
60-62.5% Depth,
Ideal-cut,
Ex-VG (polish & symm),
None-Faint (Flour),
GIA or AGS cert

Would like to stay within a budget of $6800 max for the pair.

Is there a clear-cut straight forward process to get these? You run the #''s thru pricescope and call a vendor since the price seemingly looks attractive but I''ve come up invariably empty due to a variety of reasons - advertised #''s are no longer in the inventory, wrong price, wrong specs, no matching stones etc...

Seems like a long process. Any helpful tips will be really appreciated.

Regards.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

1. You are looking for a hard to find size.
.70 to .76 is easier / more avilable.

2. The GIA info will not help much - you can do a search by cut qulity on the front page - the link is just above the little size quality fields box

 

[aljdewey]

Newcomer, this is the third post about these earrings. It seems you've been given a bunch of suggestions previously, so I'm not sure what can be added to that to satisfy what you're looking for. In fact, I actually found and posted stones I thought were close to your request. I'm assuming they weren't to your liking?




It might help you to understand that the range of diamonds you're looking for are in short supply. If you have the time to wait, you can wait until *those* specific diamonds come along. If you don't have the time to wait, then you'll have to choose from what's available at the given time.




There is a straightforward way to find them.....go to several of the reputable vendors here and *tell them* what you're looking for. Let them do the looking for you. Simple and easy.

 

[elmo]

I agree with Al, pick your favorite dealer or two and ask for help. There are lots of things like this not listed through pricescope, and dealers can't keep matched pairs in every possible size in stock.

If you raise your budget, I've heard that the Isee2 inventory is particularly deep or they could potentially cut to order...might be worth asking about.

 

[valeria101]

C'mon... 0.78-0.8 !!!... the interval for search is infinitesimal. One % depth would influence size more than the respective two hundredths of a carat. You need to match diameter first (forget hundredths of a mm, 0.5 sounds more reasonable) then table and depth within 1% or so, color & clarity by one grade. And this is already a very tight selection. Sorting through stones you would probably pair them much more loosely. Weight will fall close enough in the end, but searching within half a carat of weight is a more reasonable point to start... for the resona stated above.

This surely is a 'science': statistics, not geometry

A better way? Call a seller and ask for a pair

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

why can''t this be a science?

Ha ha ha ha!!!!
Because you are being anal and looking for a pair of unnatural sized (because of human economics) diamonds that will be cut from NATURAL mined individually processed raw materials that are not normal SCIENTIFICALLY manufactured products.

And then you narrow down the criteria - a single color and a single clarity grade.

Do you get it?

So set a budget and get the best pair for the bucks.

You can not tell the difference between VVS2 and VS2 and on the ear between D and G.

 

[newcomer]

Thanks for all your feedback.

I have realized the need to widen the specs a bit to get a reasonable selection. Its been an interesting exercise so far for me in reading and learning a bit of this process.

Its been fascinating to see the power of using pricescope price ranges to quickly reduce the local retailers pricing. In some cases, its a cool 20% !! Ofcourse this makes it ever harder since you don't know what the real value of the product is. The best we can do is use the rap sheet, avg price from pricescope, and goodwill from the seller.

Thanks.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 4/2/2004 12:16:10 PM newcomer wrote:



In some cases, its a cool 20% !! Ofcourse this makes it ever harder since you don't know what the real value of the product is.

----------------

Try loking for a round with 70% depth or so, and you'll get some really tempting prices per carat!!! The point is... ranges of price/carat need a good doze of salt, not just a grain. You may not want to consider prices without some tribute to quality. You'd find 100% variation in the price per carat for any color/clarity combination near the 1ct weight (probably the most popular, with the most stones available nera this point) - the variation does include 'creative pricing' but also different cut qualities you might want to consider when shopping for a good price.

Quite some serious hunting...

Leving the RAp list for professional diamond dealers and pet shops

 

[newcomer]

Thanks Valeria101.

For a first time buyer all you can rely on is the usual parameters of size, color, depth, table, pavillion, flour, polish&symmetry, certified, laser-inscribed. So, I have pretty much approached this analytically putting constraints around each of these variables and looking for the "best deal". The problem is the wide range of prices you get depending on who you talk to and the usual spiel you always get is the "intangibles" like overall cut. Am I wrong in expecting the cut to be pretty much determined by the ideal combination of these above #'s and hence I am justified in saying two stones are essentially identical once the individual #'s match very closely. When I try to position my conversation along these lines, the normal rhetoric I get is "but these are the top 2% of the stones and hence you have to pay a premium" and so on and so forth ..

Which is why this should probably be an emotion-based decision because then, all you care about is simply whether the diamonds look good and will it make your significant-other really happy.

Just thoughts from a first timer..

Thanks.

 

[dpe49]

Not much different than buying a Car.

Kick the tires, Start the motor up and drive it around the block. If you like the color and the price you buy it.

 

[newcomer]

If only there was an invoice price from a DeBeers that a edmunds.com like service could reveal, then its no different to buying a vehicle..

 

[pqcollectibles]

Because diamond rough varies. Because the talent and skill of the cutter varies. Because the size, type, color, and location of the inclusions vary.

Diamonds aren't a "Cookie Cutter" operation like the "Factory Assembly Line" production of a car. Car pricing varies too, dependent on the overhead and sales volume of the dealer.

 

[CaptAubrey]

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/2/2004 1:00:02 PM newcomer wrote:





When I try to position my conversation along these lines, the normal rhetoric I get is 'but these are the top 2% of the stones and hence you have to pay a premium' and so on and so forth ..----------------

Yup - and that's because the numbers you are using to set your parameters ARE numbers for the top 2-5% of stones out there.....and yes, they DO command a premium.

Think of it this way.....if you walked into a car dealership and rattled off the names of five high-end car manufacturers that you'd consider, you wouldn't get them coming back with invoice prices of $14000 for the car, would you? The parameters you're listing for diamonds are like saying you want those BIG name cars....they come at a premium and the range of pricing will be FAR above $14k.

Make sense?

 

[newcomer]

Thanks aljdewey.

So, here I am with the following set of stones. Do they fall in the 2-5% category to garner a premium? What is a good price for this pair?

1) .81, f, vs1, 61.9-d, 57-t, vg, vg, none, 35.3 angle, 40.8-pav
2) .81, f, vs1, 60.9-d, 58-t, vg, vg, none, 33.6 angle, 41.6-pav

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/2/2004 3:46:32 PM newcomer wrote:





Thanks aljdewey.

So, here I am with the following set of stones. Do they fall in the 2-5% category to garner a premium? What is a good price for this pair?

1) .81, f, vs1, 61.9-d, 57-t, vg, vg, none, 35.3 angle, 40.8-pav
2) .81, f, vs1, 60.9-d, 58-t, vg, vg, none, 33.6 angle, 41.6-pav

----------------

Newcomer, I think we'd have an easier time helping you if we understood your objective. Do you want a pair of exceptionally cut diamonds? Do you want diamonds that are very well cut--but fall short of *exceptional*? Why are you stuck on F, VS1? What is your budget? Are you trying to avoid paying a premium for cut? If so, are you willing to sacrifice cut (which will affect the diamond's sparkle the most) for color/clarity (which will affect the diamond's performance less)?

As far as the diamonds listed above....neither would be considered *ideal* because of their polish/symmetry, but VG is just fine. The first diamond falls within AGS0 cut parameters (exceptionally cut); the second doesn't. The crown is WAY shallow on the second diamond, and the pavilion angle is *horrendous* - I expect this stone will leak light and wont' be lively.

Another important piece of info that you haven't included is dimensions - the measurements. You want to be sure they are reasonably the same diameter.

If you can provide some of the info to the questions above, perhaps we can help you.

 

[wallace]

Sad to say, but this does sound a lot like science! I am in medicine and I can tell you there is nothing exact about it. Arm yourself with the best info. possible and then go with your gut!
Good luck and don't forget to post your earrings!

 

[newcomer]

Thanks again aljdewey

You are absolutely right about the second one having some off-limit #'s. I plugged into the HCA (for what its worth) and got a reading of 2.3 for the first one and a whopping 5 for the second one. So, does this mean I leave it aside even though I "might" be able to get it for approx $6500.

Thanks.

 

[aljdewey]

Newcomer, let me be very blunt here. You need to make up your mind what you want and can afford.




You cannot get stones of this size, this color, this clarity with *any* kind of cut quality for $6500. Just cannot be done, ok? A well-cut F, VS2 stone runs approximately $3800. VS1s probably run closer to $4K each. Now do the math......that's about $8K.




So, you either have to 1) stretch your budget; 2) relax your color/clarity requirements, or 3) buy crappy cut stones from Zales and call it a day.




Those are your choices. If I were faced with these choices, I'd personally opt for #2. Of cut, color, and clarity, CUT is going to affect the stone the most. Let me repeat that again: CUT trumps color and clarity. You can EASILY get GORGEOUS stones in the H/I color range with SI clarity that are AMAZING cuts within your budget of $6500.




On a side note, there's a REASON you're having a hard time finding VS1 in this size range.....because it's *overkill*. My stone is DOUBLE this size, it's an SI2, and it's *totally* eyeclean. You just don't need to go VS1. Now, if you want to, again, just realize that it makes your search that much harder because they aren't abundant.




Does any of this make sense now?

 

[CaptAubrey]

for earrings VS1 is total overkill. you could probably drop to I1 if you have a chance to examine them in person first. no one will be examining them closely enough to see any inclusions. cut is important but with earrings it should take a backseat to diameter. for color G-H is plenty high enough.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/2/2004 5:34:32 PM CaptAubrey wrote:







for earrings VS1 is total overkill. you could probably drop to I1 if you have a chance to examine them in person first. no one will be examining them closely enough to see any inclusions. cut is important but with earrings it should take a backseat to diameter. for color G-H is plenty high enough.

----------------

Capt, I completely agree......and he's been told this already by several people in this thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/table-size-and-impact-on-quality-and-price.14053/}

Hell, initially he wanted VVS! We've all gone into detailed explanations that earrings will be viewed at a distance of 2-3 ft away and how he can drop on clarity, etc.

I found a gorgeous pair of .80, G, SI1/SI2 diamonds that were extremely well matched and listed them for him over a week ago.

He just doesn't seem to want to hear it. He just does not understand that F, VS1 diamonds, especially in this size, aren't abundantly available for the picking.......and that even if they were, they aren't in his $6500 budget.

 

[newcomer]

Thanks aljdewey.

Well, I am not so sure about your comment regarding not being able to get these stones in the $6500 range. If you could provide your thoughts on this pair, I'd appreciate it -

* .76 & .77ct. F, VS1, VS2. TRIPLE IDEAL-0, AGS cert. $6500 for the pair.
I do not have the specs but expect to get them tomorrow.

Now, the dilemma is one of them is VS1 and the other is a VS2. The rap sheet shows atleast a $350 to $400 differential. Is it appropriate to use this as a lever to negotiate a good price? But again the seller's point will be "I've taken that into account ALREADY". I'm just thinking that there should be some level of discounting given that they are not of the same clarity.

Thanks for your help.

 

[newcomer]

I respect your viewpoints about the clarity issue. All I can say is "It's a cultural issue" and I HAVE to work with these constraints.

Thanks.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/2/2004 5:51:06 PM newcomer wrote:





Thanks aljdewey.

Well, I am not so sure about your comment regarding not being able to get these stones in the $6500 range----------------

You're not sure? Then let me show you. Below is a listing of well-cut F, VS diamonds. Do you SEE the prices? The highest carat weight on their is .70 for an F, VS1, and it runs $3400!!!!!!!!!!!

If the color/clarity is immovable due to culture restraints, then I'd suggest you drop the size of the diamonds to get into your budget range. As you can see from this chart, you could probably put together a beautiful pair of F, VS1 diamonds that are .65 each instead of .78-.80.

Regarding the pair you asked about - the .76/.77 pair you're asking about - wouldn't you stop and ask yourself WHY these diamonds are so inexpensive if everyone else carries them for much more? Have you seen the grading reports? Are they truly AGS, or are they EGL? When you see them, find out what the cut proportions are FOR SURE. Maybe you struck the deal of the century on that pair, and if so, great, get them. But if someone was offering to sell me a BRAND NEW BMW SUV for $25000, I know I'd wonder what the catch was.

Anyway, good luck to you. Hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This must be science!

Where else does anyone work for you for free like this

 

[Magnum]

----------------
On 4/2/2004 5:51:06 PM newcomer wrote:

The rap sheet shows atleast a $350 to $400 differential.
----------------

Be careful using rap sheet prices when you try to negotiate a diamond's price. The prices on there are just a baseline that dealers in the trade use to negotiate so they know what kind of prices they're talking about. Just because your getting less than the rap sheet, doesn't mean you're getting some kind of an awesome deal. Depending on the cut of the diamond, they can gor for up to 30-40% less than rap, whereas an ideal cut H&A will probably trade several percentage points over rap prices. You can do a search on pricescope and try to read some more about how the rap sheet works. I am personally not in the trade and not an expert at all, but from what I've read about how the rap sheet is used, I would hesitate to use it when negotiating for a diamond unless you really know what you're doing. I've heard that some vendors will sometimes pull it out to try to convince you you're getting some kind of an awesome deal because he's giving a diamond to you below rap, when really you're not getting that great a deal at all. Just something to think about.

 

[CaptAubrey]

anyone not in the diamond trade should forget rap even exists. it will only get you in trouble.

 

[newcomer]

Hello Aljdewey and others who have helped me here in the last few days, Here are the specs on the well-matched 0.76's I was talking about -

1) 0.764ct, F, VS1, AGS Ideal 0, 56%T, 43.2%Pav, 34.1 crown, Pointed culet, Negligible/Flour. Comments - Additional Clouds are not shown. DIM = 5.82 - 5.87 x 3.63 mm

2) 0.760ct, F, VS2, AGS Ideal 0, 56%T, 43.1%Pav, 35.2 crown, Pointed culet, Negligible/Flour. DIM = 5.82 - 5.84 x 3.63 mm

The negotiated price is $6500. Looked at the stones (and a copy of the AGS cert) and they looked sharp. I might consider for a few hundred $$ more, a pair of 0.80's with the same cut.

Could you PLEASE provide any of your professional opinion on what you think about this pair and also about the price. Should I be particularly concernced about the comment "Additional clouds are not shown" on the cert?

Thank you all and appreciate it.

 

[aljdewey]

You didn't list the depth on either one of these stones. They may be a touch deep; stones in this weight typically weigh around 5.95-5.98mm.

I give up. I'm officially done on this one. If you like the stones you saw, buy them.

 

[newcomer]

Sorry.

Depth is 62.1% and 62.3%.
Faceted: 1.7% to 2.7% and 1.5% to 2.4%

Thanks.