What''s wrong with SI 1?

[Fancy]

I have noticed a trend on this Board that most people don''t want to go below VS2 ...

By definition, isn''t an SI 1 stone (if properly graded, of course) supposed to be totally eye clean? And if so, then why go above SI 1?

BTW, my stone is an E, SI 1 pear, totally eye clean, and SPARKLE city.

Just wondering why the "prejudice" against SI 1???

 

[Mikesgirl]

The prejudice in my case is a reflection of lack of confidence. I feel safe that with a VS2 I am unlikely to see the inperfections even with a 10X loupe, but I fear that I might not do well with choosing an SI 1 or 2. I also have discomfort with extra facets, crystals and surface flaws (based on nothing, I know), and searched certificates for a stone where the inperfections were not under the table and were clouds or small feathers. This is based on nothing other than my own sense of what I was comfortable seeing, even under magnification, in my stone. Just an ignorant novice - certainly I passed up some "deals" with these requirements.

 

[luvmysparklies]

There really is nothing wrong with properly graded SI-1s. I think a lot of people have been tricked into buying a stone that was represented as an SI-1 clarity only for it to be revealed as an I clarity stone later. Personally, I chose a VS2 because of the size of my stone (2.39) and didn't want the chance of being able to detect "anything" with my naked eye. Even though Jonathan did teach me what true eye clean meant, as in casual observing distance...i.e. holding the stone so close to my eyeballs is not casual observing, I still wanted vs2

 

[valeria101]

I am puzzled too by all those diamond grades which can not be observed without the grader's sophisticated experience! After all, how do you pick a good diamond when you only get to see so few to choose from? Gem sellers and makers (the few who shape the 'make' of each diamond) will forever (HIC!) know more about what they sell than the buyer and this will be so until, some day, every customer would get a second life as diamond grader prior to purchase. In the meantime, the more you know the more money you are likely to save, unless you want to spend on the diaphaneous concept of perfection embodied in a D-IF.
It is not easy to get international comparisons about diamond sales by grade, but these do not seem to be received everywhere the same, despite the 'London Mix' practice and the rational soundness of the gradig system itself. Why aren't trade reports of this sort available as they are for colored gems? If, as my experience indicates, customer trust different grades to be white and eye clean in different countries, then some get more fooled than others and all get to pay more for their lack of experience... If I am wrong and there are plenty of such stats, please someone prove me wrong!

PS: there is more to this story... Do you really believe that the same lab gives the same grades to the same stone every day?

 

[canadiangrrl]

I haven't personally noticed a prejudice against SI1 stones on this forum, although I have noticed that there's a tendancy to err on the side of caution with respect to clarity. My feeling is that this is because much of what gets discussed/recommended here is online purchasing - and many diamonds that will be purchased via the 'net will be bought sight unseen. Having a stone indpendently appraised before you commit (or during your "return window") can ensure peace of mind.

I have been looking at real, live diamonds for a couple of months now. It doesn't make me anywhere close to an expert, but I've seen quite a few stones.

In a well-cut round, I have honestly never seen a properly graded SI1 that was not eyeclean when mounted & viewed face-up. I've seen some SI2's and quite a few I1's that had carbon specs and visible feathers, but I've also seen SI2's and even a couple of Il's that looked eyeclean to me from a distance of about six to eight inches from my eyes. And I have 20/15 vision.

This forum is nowhere near indicative of what the "average" diamond consumer purchases, by the way.

Not saying that the average is even close to being right - there's a lot of ugly diamonds out there, IMO - but I would say that low SI2's, I1's, and even I2's are more the norm, from what I've seen thus far.

 

[DiamondExpert]

Properly graded SI1's are not by definition eye clean...whether or not one can see inclusions in an SI1 depends upon, among other things, the shape of the diamond, its size, the nature and position of the inclusion(s), the quality of the viewer's eye sight, etc.

For example, it may be easier to see inclusions in a step cut stone than in a brilliant cut, and in larger stones as opposed to smaller ones.

Each SI1 must be carefully inspected.

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/6/2003 7:01:01 PM DiamondExpert wrote:

Properly graded SI1's are not by definition eye clean...whether or not one can see inclusions in an SI1 depends ----------------

So, if I can't see it, why should I care for the definition? Well, I might exagerate...

 

[canadiangrrl]

Valeria, I am so with you on that.

I don't care about what I can't see - especially when it's mounted.

Out of the 4 c's, clarity is something that seems to get a lot of focus when you're selecting a stone...but it seems to get the least amount of attention when you're actually wearing it. People notice carat size, cut, and colour, before they notice clarity, for the most part - particularly in rounds, where inclusions are better hidden by an excellent make.

Besides, I think some inclusions are kind of cool.

 

[Mara]

I agree that with an online purchase people sometimes don't feel comfortable buying an SI1 sight-unseen. Some people barely feel comfortable buying online, much less lowering color and clarity to increase size or similar. Plus SI's are not guaranteed eye-clean so it really is a perception thing. This is why going with a vendor that gives you ALOT of information and preferrably blown up pix of the stone etc helps alot with a comfort level. If I see some random SI1 stone on a website and all I have is a copy of the grading report with a big bubble in the middle--what does that mean to me? It sure *looks* scary.




So I think people tend to err on the side of caution when they are talking a purchase this large--esp for clarity--which not everyone understands anyway. Personally I love my VS stone but knowing what I know now...I definitely would go for an eye-clean SI--even purchased online--in order to get a bigger stone

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/6/2003 7:49:48 PM Mara wrote: If I see some random SI1 stone on a website and all I have is a copy of the grading report with a big bubble in the middle--what does that mean to me?-----------.

Well, thanks for the remarks above! How can you tell from a 50X magnified picture how the stone will look at 1X? Maybe a big blob on a grading report would even deter me, but even then I would ask wether the blob is black, white or just a plane-like inclusion perpendicular on the table (so it does only show from awkward angles, which, one of my favorite settings would close up anyway)... If the stone is 1ct or less I might not even ask and look for the price and the other characteristics instead. I will reject the idea of buying a diamond with a big thing showing under the table if either I want to give it as a present, or the stone is large enough for the incriminated thing to be of significant size itself. This is it, really. I know some people want their melee H&A, VVS and not only the very same color but also the same degree of fluorescenec (!) as the other stones on the ring. Well, to each his own. Would all this matching make an uninspired design great? Well... what do you think?

 

[Fancy]

Valeria and Ana .. I totally agree .. if I can't see it, why should I be concerned? My SI 1 is 4.21 carat pear, and I see no inclusions. And if i have to STUDY the diamond ... and I mean really STUDY it, before I see anything I might *think* is an inclusion, is this something I should be worried about? For me the answer is no.

Mara, I chose the bigger carat size over the more perfect clarity, and I can tell you that I am sooooo happy I did. And like I said, the only think I get are compliments (not only about the size, LOL), but about the incredible sparkle and whiteness of the stone.

Dimaond expert, I really did think that the definition of SI 1 was is that it is eye clean, without using any magnification ... that's what all the books say ... is this wrong?

 

[Mikesgirl]

--------------------
Would all this matching make an uninspired design great? Well... what do you think?
--------------------

What about an inspired design, or just a simple design that requires good stones to make it dazzle? Not that I'm touting H&A melee diamonds. My ring has 12 side diamonds that weigh approx .3 total - but Blue Nile saw fit to match the color and clarity (G/H - VS) and they sparkle. Whether this was intentional, or I just chose a stone that happened to fall into their range, I don't know. But it does add a little something extra.

 

[Bagpuss]

I have a 2ct RB Old English Cut SI2 I colour.

I, and no-one else that has looked at the diamond, have ever noticed any inclusions. I know that they're there 'cos I've got the cert and they're all marked on the diagram, but I don't wear the cert, I wear the diamond. I too get complimented on the whiteness of the stone, on how much it sparkles and its size, which is very large for my area.

I saw the diamond myself before I bought it so I knew it was eye clean, sparkly and white. However, I can see that buying over the net is a different proposition. You'd have to get a stone appraised by someone you trusted to be sure that it is all you hope for and even then they wouldn't be able to take into account personal preferences about special cuts you might find you prefer or a preference for fire over brilliance, for example.

This is the biggest problem with buying over the Internet - you have to go on someone else's opinion. I think this is why high colour, high clarity, ideal cut modern stones with a cert from certain labs are the safest way for most people to go when purchasing sight unseen and why there seems to be a preference for these stones. It's the only way you can be pretty sure of what you're getting. Most of us aren't regular diamond buyers with a wealth of experience behind us, however much we may try to educate ourselves about what constitutes a fantastic diamond.

If we all had live access to jewellers in whom we trusted, who had lots of different types of diamonds on hand to show us and who could and would explain the alternatives, we might all end up with very different diamonds. Sadly, we don't all live in a perfect world and have to do the best we can with what choices are available to us. For most people, such an expensive purchase, one that often has a lot of emotion invested in it (such as an ering), is too important on which to take a chance.

 

[TheDiamondangel]

Hmmm...my tastes run rather different from most people on here. I happen to love warm diamonds. I can look at a case of diamonds, all the same cut, but my eye will immediately be drawn to a J color. I also like the warmth of K, L and M diamonds. As for clarity, if you can't see it why pay for it? The only cut I'd be concerned about going for an SI1 in would be a step cut like the emerald. They have a tendoncy to be unforgiving with clarity.

I've also found that a good SI1 can actually be reassuring. The little inclusion making it an SI1 acts for me as a birthmark. If I had to leave my stone for any work necessary on a finished piece, I'd be able to easily recognize my diamond's characteristic inclusion when I got it back.

I've had a VVS stone, and a VS stone, and I felt more at ease with the VS stone because it had one little bubble-like inclusion that I could find at the 7:00 position.

 

[fire&ice]

I think an SI1 is a great compromise to increase size or decrease budget.

I recommend them frequently on this forum *especially* in the < 1.25c size. Actually, I recommend them in the larger sizes as well.

That said, I have my own personal preference in regards to types & placement of inclusions, regardless of clarity grade. I would prefer no feathers. I kinda like unobtrusive "carbon spots". They are actually little gems in the gem.

But, to each his own. And, in some respects trends seem to dictate what people buy. I have heard that high color is being really pushed. In the OEC heyday, people seemed to prefer the warmer colors in larger stones. At least, that is what I found when we began my anniversary rock intially wanting an OEC.

At the end of the day, I don't care what the specs say as long as the price represents the specs. I just care if the diamond is pretty or not.

 

[Fancy]

This is the biggest problem with buying over the Internet - you have to go on someone else's opinion. I think this is why high colour, high clarity, ideal cut modern stones with a cert from certain labs are the safest way for most people to go when purchasing sight unseen and why there seems to be a preference for these stones.


My questions is ... if you don't or can't totally trust an on line vendor to give you accurate info, (which I can understand being that it's a big purchase made sight unseen), how do you trust it's even VS clarity?

Like you said, going with a trusted Lab cert like GIA should eliminate the problem. So buying an SI 1 GIA certified on line should bring the consumer peace of mind, especially given most vendors return policies.

I would also think that most people who buy on line bring the stone to an independent appraiser to make sure they got what they paid for. So why not get the SI 1, bring it to an independent appraiser, and make sure it really is an SI 1??? .. Again, most internet vendors have fabulous return policies. And I would think there are very few people (at least that come to this forum), that would buy from a vendor who didn't have a great return policy.

You'd have to get a stone appraised by someone you trusted to be sure that it is all you hope for and even then they wouldn't be able to take into account personal preferences about special cuts you might find you prefer or a preference for fire over brilliance, for example.

I think this is why high colour, high clarity, ideal cut modern stones with a cert from certain labs are the safest way for most people to go when purchasing sight unseen and why there seems to be a preference for these stones

As for not being able to see the stone before purchase, since the clarity has nothing to do with the cut and therefore *look* of the stone (unless of course you can see the inclusion with the naked eye), getting an SI 1 wouldn't affect whether or not the stone is brilliant or sparkles etc....

Just a thought.

But of course, everyone has their own preferences, and one of my best friends will NOT get a stone below VVS ... one of them won't go below VS, and both bought from local vendors and were able to see the stones before purchase. Both say that they like knowing their stones are of high clarity and were willing (to have their husbands) pay for the knowledge LOL! I totally respect that .. to each his or her own!

 

[aljdewey]

I'd have to disagree with you, Fancy. I don't see at all see a trend of avoid SI-1 stones. In fact, several folks like Mara, PQ, F&I and myself all recommend SI-1 options frequently.




Recommending them, though, doesn't mean that the posters will change their minds. Some people come here with preconceived notions of what they want and stick to them, and I think that's fine, too. In the end, it's important that the purchase makes the buyer happy.....so if he feels he will not be satisfied unless it's at least a VS-2 and he has no problem paying the premium for it, then he should go for it.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/7/2003 5:33:44 PM Fancy wrote:

I would also think that most people who buy on line bring the stone to an independent appraiser to make sure they got what they paid for. So why not get the SI 1, bring it to an independent appraiser, and make sure it really is an SI 1??? .. Again, most internet vendors have fabulous return policies. And I would think there are very few people (at least that come to this forum), that would buy from a vendor who didn't have a great return policy.

I wondered the same. Surely, while differences of what one eyes sees than another, a vendor wants the sale to proceed. Most are not going to send out a stone that isn't what the person wants. It will sour the client on the vendor; and, ultimately not be a good business practice.

I agree about with the protocol of having the vendor eyeball it - having an appraiser eyeball it - and with your final eyeball - you keep it or send it back.

The only reason I see for not trying out an reasonable eye clean SI1 is perhaps the thought of racking up shipping costs & appraisal costs. Defer the appraisal until after you see the stone. If it's acceptable then send it to the appraiser. If it works out, you could save yourself a *bunch* of money. It's worth the monetary risk in my eyes.

The other thing is perception. I began my search w/ a much heftier budget than I ended up spending. I really thought I needed *at least* a G/VS stone. My path of self discovery took me different way.

Non SI proponents may have a psychological reason. Somehow they may see the diamond as "flawed".

 

[Mara]

If I can't see it...then I would buy it. I also frequently advocate that people ASK their vendor if the stone is eye clean. Most of the vendors that people work with from this forum would say YES or NO...and they could be trusted. Now if you are working with some random eBay vendor, who knows...but if you trust your vendor...then you may want to trust what they say...buy that stone if it's eye clean and take a look yourself. Return policies are our friends.




In fact this gives me an idea for a poll!

 

[Bagpuss]

Hi Fancy

I'm not saying everyone who buys over the Internet will go for a higher colour or clarity diamond, but once you've got to the stage where you've done all your research and learned about certs, cut considerations and all the other stuff, I think that a lot of people, first time buyers especially, think 'Well I'll play safe and get H or above colour and VS2 clarity as a minimum.'

A lot of sites do seem to recommend these as the 'safe' parameters below which you go at your own risk. I can see the logic in the recommendation. It means that the diamond is 'almost' guaranteed to be eyeclean and safely white in colour.

These are the parameters that I had in mind until I saw with my own eyes the diamond I eventually bought.

Edited to add: I've read many experts who warn that SI clarity stones are not always totaly eyeclean. I don't know how true that is, but these warnings do exist and they must put people off SI stones to a certain degree. Add to that warnings about how certain inclusions can compromise the diamond - feathers causing cracks etc. - and that must also put nervous buyers off SI's too. Of course there'll always be some who are more confident and will go for SI stones as long as they are assured by their vendor/appraiser that they are eyeclean and the inclusions pose no problems. Then again, some people only want high end clarity for other reasons, peace of mind, kudos etc and are happy to pay the premium.

I have no arguement with any of these positions - but you posed the question and I attempted to answer it as I saw it. I'm not saying that anyone is right or wrong for going with a higher or lower clarity (or colour for that matter) - I just felt that the suggestions I made might be some of the reasons for some people's preference for VS or higher diamonds.

 

[Fancy]

Bagpuss ...

Your last post got me thinking ... do you think that some vendors tell consumers to beware of SI 1 clarity so that they will spend the money on VS stones? Not sure of the answer to this question, but I wonder if this may be somewhat of a marketing tool. I am sure that there's a lot of truth to it in specific cases though.

Also, Like I said, my two best friends chose VVS an VS just because they liked the *idea* of less flaws, and it was worth it to them to get less carats just for this higher clarity, so I think your right about some consumers' perceptions and comfort level in getting the higher clarity.

 

[Bagpuss]

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On 10/8/2003 1:18:10 AM Fancy wrote:

Bagpuss ...

Your last post got me thinking ... do you think that some vendors tell consumers to beware of SI 1 clarity so that they will spend the money on VS stones? Not sure of the answer to this question, but I wonder if this may be somewhat of a marketing tool. I am sure that there's a lot of truth to it in specific cases though.

----------------

You said it. All vendors have their own agendas/marketing ploys. One vendor may tell you that the lower clarity stone they are currently trying to sell you is totally eyeclean when it perhaps isn't, while another may want to sell you a higher clarity stone and so will rubbish the lower clarity grades.

The problem is who to believe. OK, certs from the GIA and AGS, plus a report from your independant appraiser, should give you peace of mind but after reading up all these conflicting opinions about clarity questions, I'm sure many consumers just don't want to take any chance on such an important purchase and so for the safe option, go for a VS stone and pay the premium. Also, while some may intend to upgrade their diamond at some point, I'm sure many expect to stay with their original purchase for many years, if not forever, especially in the case of an e-ring. They may feel that they should pay a bit extra now and have an as top of the range diamond as they can afford. I've heard many, many vendors and consumers advise buyers to go for 'quality' over size and in many people's minds quality equals ideal cut/high colour/high clarity.

This is just the way I see the situation after months of reading people writing about why the chose the way they did. If other people have a different take on what they read about what people have bought, then feel free to disagree. That's what these forums are all about, after all.

 

[Fancy]

The other thing is perception. I began my search w/ a much heftier budget than I ended up spending. I really thought I needed *at least* a G/VS stone. My path of self discovery took me different way.

F&I, I agree, my perception was so different when I started thinking about e-rings. I was the opposite, though ... I knew *nothing* about any of the 4 c's, and thought it was as easy as just going to your jeweler and asking for a beautiful ring .. hahaha, ignorance is bliss!

 

[JC]

In my opinion most GIA graded SI1 clarity diamonds are eye-clean. I rarely run across a GIA graded SI1 that isn't eye-clean. It can happen, but not most of the time. So I say if you can get a quality well cut diamond that is fairly priced that is also eye-clean, than why not. It doesn't always have to be a VS quality to be eye-clean.

 

[ringbling17]

I am one of those people that would not buy an SI1 clarity stone.
Why? It's just a matter of personal preference. Just like some people only buy D or E or F, others don't want anything below VS.
No one else will ever know about it, unless you tell them, but for me, I prefer to have a better clarity diamond. I guess it's just one of those things that I can't explain. I would rather go down in color, G/H/I, than go down in clarity.
In fact, I choose my diamond over another one, because the AGS certificate had one tiny pinpoint, compared to another VS1 diamond that had at least 4 or 5 inclusions.

 

[diamondlil]

Wow, Fancy, this thread has gone a long way. I agree with you that some vendors may tell customer to beware of SI grading as a marketing tool. After all, if a customer is assured of eye cleanliness just by bumping up to VS2, I think most people jump on it. For me, the premium on this small bump is worth a little investigative work on an SI1 (or SI2), especially if it enables me to get a larger stone. Why pay for what I can't see?

Diamondlil

 

[billv45]

Hey, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Improper grading put aside (I only trust a third parties opinions and then I'm sceptical) you need to find out how discriminating you girl's eye is. I love my fiance very much but she has a cybornetic eye I'm convinced. She can pick up a SI stone and point out multiple flaws in seconds, literally. Yesterday at the jewlers no less, the sale associate was showing her ring the jewler there just made for her last month and it had some 1 pointer accent stones. She looked at it, said it was beautiful, and then asked her if she was going to replace the missing stone. After a couple of rounds of no there's not, yes there is, the sales person pulled out a loupe and sure enough there was a hole. Now I know there's a world of difference in a missing stone and a feather or carbon micro-spec but she can find them all. I had to get a VVS stone so it would be eye-clean to her. She also can determine color at a glance and H is too yellow for her. I think she missed her calling... but anyway you need to know your girl and make sure she'll be happy with her ring. After all that's what counts.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/9/2003 11:53:45 AM billv45 wrote:

Hey, I love my fiance very much but she has a cybornetic eye I'm convinced. She can pick up a SI stone and point out multiple flaws in seconds, literally. .----------------

Hah! Your post made me laugh. Just give her a decade or so. Seriously, your eyes really become less acute, especially with corrective lenses.

Then, she may be one of the lucky ones.

But, chances are there is an eye clean (her eye) SI1 in her future.

 

[pqcollectibles]

Well,...... before I bought,..... I probably would have erred toward VS clarity for an online purchase even though I had seen a 100% eye clean I1 at a local jewelry store.

I previewed VS and a SI1 ACA's from White Flash. My husband wanted the "cleaner" VS but I bought the SI1. THE inclusion is a feather that lies perpendicular to the facets cut. Totally invisible to the naked eye and does not impact performance. Yes you could see the feather thru the side unmounted, but now that the diamond is set, no one knows it's there.

Size, type, color, and location of inclusions are the keys to selecting any SI/I clarity rated diamond.

 

[Heyjud]

If you can't see it with the naked eye


Don't let a great deal pass you by





An SI1 can often be


A stone that's a beauty for all to see!





Who cares what you see when magnified


If it looks good to you, then wear it with pride!