What percentage of 2ct+ SI2 diamonds are eye clean?

[Rockdiamond]

HI Everyone!

I notice many posts advising folks away from SI2 diamonds, especially in larger sizes.
I'm interested in this perception.
What percentage of SI2 diamonds above 2 cts do you think are eye clean?

 

[panda08]

I just purchased a 2.94 OEC that my appraiser graded as an SI2. Another appraiser and a jeweler thought it was SI1. Either way, it's eye clean.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Cool Panda!
I'd love to see it- are there photos anywhere?
I was originally thinking about stone graded by GIA, but your stone brings up a great point.
It may very be a borderline stone- meaning it might get Si1 one day, and SI2 another.
That is totally possible, as GIA uses humans to grade the diamonds.
In cases of stones with scattered imperfections, there's even more interpretation involved.
Grading stones with a single "gletz" might be sometimes more consistent from one person to another, as compared to scattered stuff.

 

[wolfelot]

I'm under the impression that a good number are eye clean if you are only looking the diamond table up. However if you really really look from the pavilion and every angle imaginable from whatever distance you can see best I think few are. All that being said I have a 1.01 ct, E colored, Ideal cut, SI2 that is 100% eye clean after looking at it under every distance and lighting scenario imaginable for several hours. I think that is fairly rare and I believe that the larger the stone the easier it is to see those inclusions.

 

[Phoenix]

I've just purchased a pair of RB studs from BGD, one is an Si1 the other Si2. Both are totally eye-clean (even hard to loupe - in fact I still haven't found the inclusions yet with my 10xtimes loupe . But admittedly I haven't tried that hard yet, it just doesn't bother me since the stones are so small and these are studs, not on my fingers to be stared at all day long ).

I have a 3.50ct pear Si2 which is also eye-clean. Although the crystals are easy to loupe, it also has some clear twinning wisps that I've only been able to loupe once - in the 2 plus years I've owned it - under very very bright jewellery store lighting.

Si stones are def great value for money, esp if you trust your vendors and/ or IA's to determine its eyecleanness for you. Incidentally, some Si1 stones I hear are NOT eyeclean.

But then again, it all depends on the wearer's eyesight too and their "mind-cleaness" standard. I can only speak about mine. Some people are more egle-eyed than others - obviously.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

Well... seems to me from looking at the usual PS vendor sites that SI2s are very uncommon in the in house inventories, and even more uncommon in the 2ct. plus range. This is despite I think a fair amount of demand for these diamonds by savvy price-conscious consumers. Since most of these vendors will only carry in house stones that are eye clean, this leads me to think that such stones are actually quite rare in the "super ideal" market. Broadening the cut criteria would certainly help open up the contender SI2 field, but I cannot imagine it is a huge increase in inventory.

I would love to hear an estimate by someone who buys a lot of diamonds each year and sees a lot of SI2s. I have read Garry say they are extremely rare, and Brian Gavin also told when I was searching for a diamond that me they are very rare as well.

I also think "eye clean" is in the eye of the beholder. True 100% eye clean on close inspection no matter what lighting SI2s are a truly rare bird I suspect.

 

[betty6333]

I dont know, but my 1.51 is eye clean.
having said that it was VERY VERY hard to find an si2 that was eye clean in the 1.5 carat range, at 2.0 I would imagine it would not be any easier.

I define eye clean as, I can hold that diamond within 5 inches of my eye and not see anything but sparkle . I am VERY picky. I would imagine if you are defining eye clean as nothing visible from 2 feet, or a foot away that would not be as hard to find

 

[Dancing Fire]

my wife's 3.34ct GIA SI1 (IMO closer to SI2) looks eye clean to me, but then i'am older than most of the PSers here.when you get to my age most SI1 stones becomes "EYE CLEAN"

if the observer don't loupe the stone first (w/o cheating) IMO 60% of the 2ct stones will look eye clean to most observer from 8" away.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I know we'll find a lot of SI2 lovers.

I'm under the impression that a good number are eye clean if you are only looking the diamond table up. However if you really really look from the pavilion and every angle imaginable from whatever distance you can see best I think few are. All that being said I have a 1.01 ct, E colored, Ideal cut, SI2 that is 100% eye clean after looking at it under every distance and lighting scenario imaginable for several hours. I think that is fairly rare and I believe that the larger the stone the easier it is to see those inclusions.

Great points!

In terms of being able to see the imperfection face up or through the pavilion- what if a stone has through the pavilion visibility loose, but setting the stone totally obscures the imperfection?


Re Large stones versus smaller ones- I still don't feel it's a fair generalization to say larger stones properly graded SI2 are less likely to be eye clean as compared to smaller carat sized SI2's.
I believe the nuances of how GIA SI2 grades Si2 diamonds is a worth discussion here.
A speck - say a VVS1 sized pinpoint is identical in a 10.00ct or a 1.00ct.
As we go down the scale there is some allowance for size- The single imperfection in a 4.00ct SI2 is larger than a single imperfection SI2 .40ct-but it's proportional with the increase in size. The same type of imperfection in the same position will often times react in similar manner.
Then of course there's dispersed imperfection Si2 stone where the size can actually help in some cases.

I'm not saying SI2's are for everyone- just that they get a bad rap with an undeservedly broad brush

 

[Allison D.]

I'm not saying SI2's are for everyone- just that they get a bad rap with an undeservedly broad brush

I've finally found something that I can wholeheartedly agree with David on!

I own several SI2 stones and are completely eyeclean, and I actually prefer to buy SI2 stones because (for me) they represent the best value for the money without visual sacrifice. I think my mind-clean threshold is much lower than average; for me, visually eyeclean IS mind-clean. I don't care what can be seen under a loupe at all.

If I had listened to all the posts saying "oooooooooooo, be very very careful about SI2 stones; many aren't eyeclean", I think I would have missed out on some great stones. Understandably, consumers on the front end of the learning curve reading those posts do tend to come away feeling that SI2 stones are too risky, which breeds avoidance and that in turn perpetuates the perception.

That, in turn, affects market choices for all because as a vendor, the primary goal is turning inventory. Accordingly, inhouse selection will favor choices that will appeal to the broadest audience. That's more likely the reason why inhouse selections are featuring less and less SI2 stones; it's an unfortunate domino effect.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Well... seems to me from looking at the usual PS vendor sites that SI2s are very uncommon in the in house inventories, and even more uncommon in the 2ct. plus range. This is despite I think a fair amount of demand for these diamonds by savvy price-conscious consumers. Since most of these vendors will only carry in house stones that are eye clean, this leads me to think that such stones are actually quite rare in the "super ideal" market. Broadening the cut criteria would certainly help open up the contender SI2 field, but I cannot imagine it is a huge increase in inventory.

I would love to hear an estimate by someone who buys a lot of diamonds each year and sees a lot of SI2s. I have read Garry say they are extremely rare, and Brian Gavin also told when I was searching for a diamond that me they are very rare as well.

I also think "eye clean" is in the eye of the beholder. True 100% eye clean on close inspection no matter what lighting SI2s are a truly rare bird I suspect.

You raise some interesting points dd.
There' can be a lot of explanations to this perception.
The manner of selection, and buying in the industry, on a broader sense, includes the incredible power of internet diamond sales- yet there are still a fair number of successful retail jewelry stores that buy large quantities of loose diamonds.
Dealers that buy inventory in person- be it at trade shows, or dealers in diamond districts around the world, pick the eye clean SI goods by eye. It has always been this way- when you look at a huge cutter's inventory, they have "dogs" that just never seem to sell.
Over time, the lists on the internet become the home of the SI stones rejected after being picked over in person, particularly in the Si category
In that regard, if someone is buying without the benefit of any ability of visual inspection ( photos, or having the dealer inspect) SI2 is definitely more risky..

It's not my contention that great, eye clean SI1 and SI2 stones are necessarily easy to find, but that does not mean one should not try to find them.
Maybe if more people asked, their favorite dealers would carry more!
Allison, I'm sure we agree on a lot of important things........ but it is nice to find a diamond thing we agree on!

 

[yssie]

I think there's a reason that these stones are A) SI2 and B) good 'value for money'.

Due diligence and a good grasp on reality are vital to avoiding disappointment. Can it be done? Yes, probably, but prepare to be in it for the long haul.

 

[elle_chris]

When I was looking, I didn't see any in the 2ct+ range that were eyeclean. I decided on a VS2 that I can't' see the inclusions in. But, I had a jeweler spot it without a loupe.

I think it's impossible to say how many are eye clean because it depends on who's looking. Some may see it, others won't.
So eye clean to me, may not be eye clean to someone else.

 

[WinkHPD]

Well... seems to me from looking at the usual PS vendor sites that SI2s are very uncommon in the in house inventories, and even more uncommon in the 2ct. plus range. This is despite I think a fair amount of demand for these diamonds by savvy price-conscious consumers. Since most of these vendors will only carry in house stones that are eye clean, this leads me to think that such stones are actually quite rare in the "super ideal" market. Broadening the cut criteria would certainly help open up the contender SI2 field, but I cannot imagine it is a huge increase in inventory.

I would love to hear an estimate by someone who buys a lot of diamonds each year and sees a lot of SI2s. I have read Garry say they are extremely rare, and Brian Gavin also told when I was searching for a diamond that me they are very rare as well.

I also think "eye clean" is in the eye of the beholder. True 100% eye clean on close inspection no matter what lighting SI2s are a truly rare bird I suspect.

Just a thought. Have you given consideration that those stones sell VERY quickly? Perhaps that is why there are so few of them in inventories. Such stones do sell very quickly because they represent such tremendous values, In the higher colors the price of an SI2 is dramatically lower. (Conversely, in lower colors, K and down, the price increase for a VVS is only a little above the price of a VS.)

Wink

 

[Karl_K]

Just a thought. Have you given consideration that those stones sell VERY quickly? Perhaps that is why there are so few of them in inventories. Such stones do sell very quickly because they represent such tremendous values, In the higher colors the price of an SI2 is dramatically lower. (Conversely, in lower colors, K and down, the price increase for a VVS is only a little above the price of a VS.)

Wink

Lol Wink that cracked me up....
That is a bit circular logic...
Since the stocking/pre-screening dealers don't have a bunch in stock they are either:
a: fairly rare
b: not in demand.
Since they are in demand they must be fairly rare.

 

[Karl_K]

Back to the original question...
Which shape?
Which definition of eye clean?

Eye-cleanish with a prongable inclusion will be much more common than face up eyeclean which is more common than totally eyeclean.
An eyeclean RB will be way more common than eyeclean step cut.
A eyeclean 2ct si2 stepcut is so rare to be nonexistent.
I would be a good bet that if you looked at all of the 2ct si2 stepcuts on the market that not one is eyeclean face up through 20 degrees tilt.

 

[WinkHPD]

Just a thought. Have you given consideration that those stones sell VERY quickly? Perhaps that is why there are so few of them in inventories. Such stones do sell very quickly because they represent such tremendous values, In the higher colors the price of an SI2 is dramatically lower. (Conversely, in lower colors, K and down, the price increase for a VVS is only a little above the price of a VS.)

Wink

Lol Wink that cracked me up....
That is a bit circular logic...
Since the stocking/pre-screening dealers don't have a bunch in stock they are either:
a: fairly rare
b: not in demand.
Since they are in demand they must be fairly rare.

I am not meaning to be circuitous, it is just when I get these stones they are gone very quickly, so I agree with you that they are in demand.

Sigh, and now that I reread the original post to which I was responding with the sleep dust rubbed from my eyes, I see that I was in fact reading her post incorrectly.

Maybe I should just go back to bed now and start over later in the day. LOL! Why do I think I am intelligent in the morning before my third cup of Joe???

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl, eye clean SI2 step cuts do indeed exist.
I've seen both Asschers, and Emerald Cuts in larger sizes that met your definition of totally eye clean.

But you do raise a great point about the definition of eye clean- which does vary from person to person.
A stone may very well be totally eye clean to someone who is 50 years old, where a 25 year old might be able to see the imperfection.
In my experience, larger stones are generally bought by those in the demographic older than 40 years old.
Also true that some shapes are more likely to show imperfection.
None of this justifies broadly advising folks not to consider SI2

I believe's Wink's logic is impeccable- and true. Eye clean Si2's do tend to sell more quickly than VS1 stones of the same color and size. This exasperates the situation where non eye clean SI2's hang around in inventory making the eye clean ones seem even more rare.
Still, if someone read comments based on this prejudice, they might very well eliminate SI2 form their potential list- needlessly.

When I was looking, I didn't see any in the 2ct+ range that were eyeclean. I decided on a VS2 that I can't' see the inclusions in. But, I had a jeweler spot it without a loupe.

I think it's impossible to say how many are eye clean because it depends on who's looking. Some may see it, others won't.
So eye clean to me, may not be eye clean to someone else.

You bring up a good point elle_chris. What percentage of VS2 stones is not eye clean? They too, do exist.

 

[elle_chris]

rockdiamond- that's the whole point. I can't see the inclusion, WF didn't see the inclusion, no one who's ever seen the stone can spot the inclusion including my appraiser, and numerous jewelers. Except for one, sales assoiciate (this was at William Barthman jewelers, on Broadway. You may know who they are). Does that make it eyeclean?

Eyeclean only matters for the wearer. If they can't see it, then I'd consider it eyeclean.

 

[clgwli]

I have to say I will probably never own a 2ct+ stone so I have little to add to this. But I find this discussion truly fascinating! I have small SI1 and SI2 stones that are not eye clean to my standards. The little black spots annoy me but as earrings I don't mind. Clear inclusions that can be seen with weird bright lighting never bother me though. So while technically not eye clean totally, they are clean enough for me. I am sure things like that will effect others and their perception of eye clean as well.

 

[Rockdiamond]

rockdiamond- that's the whole point. I can't see the inclusion, WF didn't see the inclusion, no one who's ever seen the stone can spot the inclusion including my appraiser, and numerous jewelers. Except for one, sales assoiciate (this was at William Barthman jewelers, on Broadway. You may know who they are). Does that make it eyeclean?

Eyeclean only matters for the wearer. If they can't see it, then I'd consider it eyeclean.

Most VS2 diamonds are eye clean- as I'm sure yours is ( it's totally possible a sales associate might say they can see something due to a less than honorable motivation)


My point was, VS2 does not guarantee an eye clean diamond, any more than SI2 guarantees an non eye clean stone.

My experience is that clarity is a very misunderstood aspect of diamond grading.
For example- many times when someone calls they may mention "I don;t want SI2 because I want a shiny brilliant diamond".
What may have happened is that the shopper may have been shown some really junky stone, and told it was an SI2- and therefore attributed the dullness to the clarity.
That may have actually been the case, but properly graded SI2 diamonds are virtually never "dull" due to their clarity.

 

[panda08]

Cool Panda!
I'd love to see it- are there photos anywhere?
I was originally thinking about stone graded by GIA, but your stone brings up a great point.
It may very be a borderline stone- meaning it might get Si1 one day, and SI2 another.
That is totally possible, as GIA uses humans to grade the diamonds.
In cases of stones with scattered imperfections, there's even more interpretation involved.
Grading stones with a single "gletz" might be sometimes more consistent from one person to another, as compared to scattered stuff.

Sorry, Rockdiamond, I don't have any pics right now but when I do, I'll post them over at Timeless Classics or SMTR.

Thanks for starting this interesting discussion. My appraiser gave my OEC a SI2 because of some graining and it appears the other appraiser did not (I didn't deal with the other appraiser; the appraisal was provided by the seller but the appraiser is an IA that has very good credentials). Both plots of the stone are virtually identical.

My OEC is the 2nd eye-clean SI2 diamond I own, the other is a 1.5 cushion. Eye-clean SI2s are great values, though the search for them takes patience, as it's like digging for a needle in a haystack.

 

[Jennifer W]

I have to say I will probably never own a 2ct+ stone so I have little to add to this. But I find this discussion truly fascinating! I have small SI1 and SI2 stones that are not eye clean to my standards. The little black spots annoy me but as earrings I don't mind. Clear inclusions that can be seen with weird bright lighting never bother me though. So while technically not eye clean totally, they are clean enough for me. I am sure things like that will effect others and their perception of eye clean as well.

I'm in the same boat! I don't have a 2+ct stone either. Ah well...

What I do have are two emerald cuts that are SI2 and eye clean. I know where the inclusions are, but it takes me a while to find them. I can tell which stone is which, but not by glancing at them- I need to take a pretty good look. Now, they're only 0.60ct each, but still they are SI2 and eyeclean to my standards certainly. Such step cuts do exist.

As a vendor's representative, I can't post a photo of them, but they were my avatar before I started working at DBL (just so you know they really do exist )

Edited because my signature seems to have vanished - sorry!

Jen

Customer Service Associate
Diamonds by Lauren

 

[WinkHPD]

Cool Panda!
I'd love to see it- are there photos anywhere?
I was originally thinking about stone graded by GIA, but your stone brings up a great point.
It may very be a borderline stone- meaning it might get Si1 one day, and SI2 another.
That is totally possible, as GIA uses humans to grade the diamonds.
In cases of stones with scattered imperfections, there's even more interpretation involved.
Grading stones with a single "gletz" might be sometimes more consistent from one person to another, as compared to scattered stuff.

Sorry, Rockdiamond, I don't have any pics right now but when I do, I'll post them over at Timeless Classics or SMTR.

Thanks for starting this interesting discussion. My appraiser gave my OEC a SI2 because of some graining and it appears the other appraiser did not (I didn't deal with the other appraiser; the appraisal was provided by the seller but the appraiser is an IA that has very good credentials). Both plots of the stone are virtually identical.

My OEC is the 2nd eye-clean SI2 diamond I own, the other is a 1.5 cushion. Eye-clean SI2s are great values, though the search for them takes patience, as it's like digging for a needle in a haystack.

I just have to respectfully disagree with this. If you are grading from the top down, this is just not the case, there are many of them. probably more that are eye clean than are not. (Depending on eyesight of course.) If you are grading them from the sides and bottoms where the physics of light make it much easier to discern the inclusions then I will agree with you and there will be many VS stones that are not eye clean under this definition. Please understand though that this is not the trade definition of the term.

Wink

 

[panda08]

Cool Panda!
I'd love to see it- are there photos anywhere?
I was originally thinking about stone graded by GIA, but your stone brings up a great point.
It may very be a borderline stone- meaning it might get Si1 one day, and SI2 another.
That is totally possible, as GIA uses humans to grade the diamonds.
In cases of stones with scattered imperfections, there's even more interpretation involved.
Grading stones with a single "gletz" might be sometimes more consistent from one person to another, as compared to scattered stuff.

Sorry, Rockdiamond, I don't have any pics right now but when I do, I'll post them over at Timeless Classics or SMTR.

Thanks for starting this interesting discussion. My appraiser gave my OEC a SI2 because of some graining and it appears the other appraiser did not (I didn't deal with the other appraiser; the appraisal was provided by the seller but the appraiser is an IA that has very good credentials). Both plots of the stone are virtually identical.

My OEC is the 2nd eye-clean SI2 diamond I own, the other is a 1.5 cushion. Eye-clean SI2s are great values, though the search for them takes patience, as it's like digging for a needle in a haystack.

I just have to respectfully disagree with this. If you are grading from the top down, this is just not the case, there are many of them. probably more that are eye clean than are not. (Depending on eyesight of course.) If you are grading them from the sides and bottoms where the physics of light make it much easier to discern the inclusions then I will agree with you and there will be many VS stones that are not eye clean under this definition. Please understand though that this is not the trade definition of the term.

Wink

That's okay, I meant to say that as an opinon based on my own experience. And I should add that eye clean, for me, is at all angles, not just from the top, even though I understand that that is not the trade definition of the term.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth- but I feel the same sentiments I think Wink is expressing.
Although comments made are not intended to make any "point", such statements do stick in folks' minds.
I don't think Pandora meant any harm, but if it was a needle/haystack situation, that sounds discouraging.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

In the end, the catch for me when thinking about SI2 diamonds and helping consumers look for them is that technical definitions of "eye clean" are not very meaningful, unfortunately. Working remotely to buy a diamond sight unseen adds complications, and communicating about eye cleanliness is one. Color is another, but at least you can tell people to go see GIA/AGS graded diamonds and they can do so and get a feel for their preferences. With clarity, each diamond is unique, and so it is hard to get a feel for your own preferences by looking at diamonds at a local jeweler, for example.

One person's eye clean is another person's NOT eye clean. Depends on a lot of factors like eye sight, preferred diamond viewing method (up close vs. far away), lighting etc etc. When it comes to SI1s I think that there is probably more overlap between people's definitions of eye clean because it is more likely ther inclusions are completely and utterly invisible to the naked eye no matter the viewing conditions. But with SI2 this is just not the case. My concern with consumers looking at this clarity grade is that they are told "eye clean" by a vendor and may or may not understand what this means in real terms for them when they view the diamond. I really believe that buying an SI2 is a little like buying a J color diamond -- you will see the tint in the latter and you need to accept that; in all but the most rare cases, you will see inclusions in an SI2 in *some combination* of viewing and lighting environments, and you may need to accept that too.

So my advice to shoppers looking for SI2 has been and will remain to see the stone in person before committing. Then you will have all the information available and you can decide if it is eye clean -- to you!

 

[WinkHPD]

Cool Panda!
I'd love to see it- are there photos anywhere?
I was originally thinking about stone graded by GIA, but your stone brings up a great point.
It may very be a borderline stone- meaning it might get Si1 one day, and SI2 another.
That is totally possible, as GIA uses humans to grade the diamonds.
In cases of stones with scattered imperfections, there's even more interpretation involved.
Grading stones with a single "gletz" might be sometimes more consistent from one person to another, as compared to scattered stuff.

Sorry, Rockdiamond, I don't have any pics right now but when I do, I'll post them over at Timeless Classics or SMTR.

Thanks for starting this interesting discussion. My appraiser gave my OEC a SI2 because of some graining and it appears the other appraiser did not (I didn't deal with the other appraiser; the appraisal was provided by the seller but the appraiser is an IA that has very good credentials). Both plots of the stone are virtually identical.

My OEC is the 2nd eye-clean SI2 diamond I own, the other is a 1.5 cushion. Eye-clean SI2s are great values, though the search for them takes patience, as it's like digging for a needle in a haystack.

I just have to respectfully disagree with this. If you are grading from the top down, this is just not the case, there are many of them. probably more that are eye clean than are not. (Depending on eyesight of course.) If you are grading them from the sides and bottoms where the physics of light make it much easier to discern the inclusions then I will agree with you and there will be many VS stones that are not eye clean under this definition. Please understand though that this is not the trade definition of the term.

Wink

That's okay, I meant to say that as an opinon based on my own experience. And I should add that eye clean, for me, is at all angles, not just from the top, even though I understand that that is not the trade definition of the term.

That's cool, and from your definition, yes they are going to be harder to find. That is why I was respectfully disagreeing, I thought it very possible that we were talking apples and oranges.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

In the end, the catch for me when thinking about SI2 diamonds and helping consumers look for them is that technical definitions of "eye clean" are not very meaningful, unfortunately. Working remotely to buy a diamond sight unseen adds complications, and communicating about eye cleanliness is one. Color is another, but at least you can tell people to go see GIA/AGS graded diamonds and they can do so and get a feel for their preferences. With clarity, each diamond is unique, and so it is hard to get a feel for your own preferences by looking at diamonds at a local jeweler, for example.

One person's eye clean is another person's NOT eye clean. Depends on a lot of factors like eye sight, preferred diamond viewing method (up close vs. far away), lighting etc etc. When it comes to SI1s I think that there is probably more overlap between people's definitions of eye clean because it is more likely ther inclusions are completely and utterly invisible to the naked eye no matter the viewing conditions. But with SI2 this is just not the case. My concern with consumers looking at this clarity grade is that they are told "eye clean" by a vendor and may or may not understand what this means in real terms for them when they view the diamond. I really believe that buying an SI2 is a little like buying a J color diamond -- you will see the tint in the latter and you need to accept that; in all but the most rare cases, you will see inclusions in an SI2 in *some combination* of viewing and lighting environments, and you may need to accept that too.

So my advice to shoppers looking for SI2 has been and will remain to see the stone in person before committing. Then you will have all the information available and you can decide if it is eye clean -- to you!

And of course I agree with this, as it is one of the things I say a lot. You MUST see a diamond before you make that final decision. I am usually talking about cutting when I say that, but with SI diamonds that is also a must see deal.

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

Dreamer- all due respect: Your post re-enforces misconceptions.
For example: Hold a J next to a D. Anyone with sensitivity to color ( someone who is not colorblind) can see the difference.
Hold an eye clean Si2 next to an internally flawless- visually, they are IDENTICAL.
Nor are eye clean SI2's so rare as you make it sound.

snip..... If you are grading from the top down, this is just not the case, there are many of them. probably more that are eye clean than are not. (Depending on eyesight of course.) If you are grading them from the sides and bottoms where the physics of light make it much easier to discern the inclusions then I will agree with you and there will be many VS stones that are not eye clean under this definition. Please understand though that this is not the trade definition of the term.

Wink

I agree with Wink- my assessment is based on personally looking at thousands of carats of GIA graded diamonds each year..

I also agree with part of what you wrote dreamer- it's very important to actually look at any stone to decide if it's color, clarity, and cut are right for you.