what is a sarin report used for and how to measure light return

[garek007]

Hi,

I''ve been reading on this site about sarin reports, idealscopes, etc. I recently had an online vendor pull a sarin and to my surprise it did not show anything about light return/leakage. Did I get my reports mixed up?

What is a sarin report supposed to be used for? what does it show? and what am I thinking of that shows light return and light leakage?

thanks,
Stan

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/10/2010 12:02:35 PM
Author:garek007
Hi,

I've been reading on this site about sarin reports, idealscopes, etc. I recently had an online vendor pull a sarin and to my surprise it did not show anything about light return/leakage. Did I get my reports mixed up?

What is a sarin report supposed to be used for? what does it show? and what am I thinking of that shows light return and light leakage?

thanks,
Stan

Hi Stan

A Sarin report is used to give detailed measurements of a diamond, particularly useful in the cases of rounded numbers such as GIA or fancy shapes to get the crown height, also to get an idea of overall cutting precision throughout the stone such as angle variances as an example. However apart from that in my opinion, many of the proportions aren't that useful to the layman unless they understand exactly the effect these many measurements have on the beauty or optics of the stone.

This link goes into more detail concerning Sarin and Helium reports.

Idealscope images show light leakage and ASET images show light return and light leakage, read more here.

 

[Stone-cold11]

Light return you will need Idealscope/ASET image.

For a sarin report, maybe if you can get the full report, not those average numbers brief type, and ask someone with DiamCalc to generate a virtual stone for you.

 

[Regular Guy]

Garek, every jeweler will tell you to value a diamond based on their 4 C''s, one of which is cut, and is properly differentiated by not "type" of cut, as in round, but rather, how well it is cut...and so...the usual diagram you''d see in a store shows you poorly shaped round diamonds (for example) either being too squat or too long, and therefore, not optimizing the light performance.

Most diamonds these days DO have a cert which is designed to provide many of the basic proportions that allow you to have a better understanding of how light will be more or less optimized, but as Lorelei mentioned, sometimes the Sarin report will help to either double check such a grading report from GIA, or give more valid numbers vs percentages than may sometimes be supplied by EGL.

These other grading agencies will use different formulas to calculate the light return. Garry on this board uses this one, using some of the more important numbers (from crown & pavilion angle measures), AGS uses a very similar one, in either 3D or 2D, and GIA uses a pretty similar one.

The point of the sarin report is to produce data that you can then either simultaneously (a Sarin report might come with its own built in, older style maybe) use to provide an evaluation about light performance, or you can apply this info after the fact. As both Lorelei & Stone pointed out as well, both IS and ASET are designed to provide more direct measures of light performance.

Although Sarin, IS & ASET provide measures of light performance, all of them are by some measures interpretive of what you will actually see and like. Generally, these measures are thought to be pretty good, much better than a kick in the pants, and definitely all worth pursuing.

 

[Todd Gray]

As I recall, there is an older version of the Sarin software that offered a light return analysis based solely on the proportions of the diamond, as I recall it produced a report indicating the light return and leakage of the diamond, but it was only an estimation based on the measurements and not on actual data provided by any sort of measured light through a diamond.

Devices such as the ASET, Ideal Scope, etc. are definitely going to provide more insight.

But the Sarin output is extremely useful in terms of providing insight into the structure of the diamond in terms of the consistency of the measured sections and is an important part of our evaluation process... Each tool has its place.

 

[garek007]

Date: 2/10/2010 1:50:30 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Garek, every jeweler will tell you to value a diamond based on their 4 C''s, one of which is cut, and is properly differentiated by not ''type'' of cut, as in round, but rather, how well it is cut...and so...the usual diagram you''d see in a store shows you poorly shaped round diamonds (for example) either being too squat or too long, and therefore, not optimizing the light performance.


Most diamonds these days DO have a cert which is designed to provide many of the basic proportions that allow you to have a better understanding of how light will be more or less optimized, but as Lorelei mentioned, sometimes the Sarin report will help to either double check such a grading report from GIA, or give more valid numbers vs percentages than may sometimes be supplied by EGL.


These other grading agencies will use different formulas to calculate the light return. Garry on this board uses this one, using some of the more important numbers (from crown & pavilion angle measures), AGS uses a very similar one, in either 3D or 2D, and GIA uses a pretty similar one.


The point of the sarin report is to produce data that you can then either simultaneously (a Sarin report might come with its own built in, older style maybe) use to provide an evaluation about light performance, or you can apply this info after the fact. As both Lorelei & Stone pointed out as well, both IS and ASET are designed to provide more direct measures of light performance.


Although Sarin, IS & ASET provide measures of light performance, all of them are by some measures interpretive of what you will actually see and like. Generally, these measures are thought to be pretty good, much better than a kick in the pants, and definitely all worth pursuing.

Thanks regular guy for your input. I''ve tried using that calculator you linked to, but it never works right. It always tells me my numbers are off, tells me my depth is too deep. But I''m putting in the numbers I have so I don''t know what''s going on. I was sent a Sarin report but I''ve ready that if the machine isn''t calibrated after every diamond, measurements could be off.

I''ve asked the diamond seller (union diamond) to get the idealscope and ASET reports. I''ll post them here when I do.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/11/2010 12:53:00 AM
Author: garek007

Date: 2/10/2010 1:50:30 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Garek, every jeweler will tell you to value a diamond based on their 4 C''s, one of which is cut, and is properly differentiated by not ''type'' of cut, as in round, but rather, how well it is cut...and so...the usual diagram you''d see in a store shows you poorly shaped round diamonds (for example) either being too squat or too long, and therefore, not optimizing the light performance.


Most diamonds these days DO have a cert which is designed to provide many of the basic proportions that allow you to have a better understanding of how light will be more or less optimized, but as Lorelei mentioned, sometimes the Sarin report will help to either double check such a grading report from GIA, or give more valid numbers vs percentages than may sometimes be supplied by EGL.


These other grading agencies will use different formulas to calculate the light return. Garry on this board uses this one, using some of the more important numbers (from crown & pavilion angle measures), AGS uses a very similar one, in either 3D or 2D, and GIA uses a pretty similar one.


The point of the sarin report is to produce data that you can then either simultaneously (a Sarin report might come with its own built in, older style maybe) use to provide an evaluation about light performance, or you can apply this info after the fact. As both Lorelei & Stone pointed out as well, both IS and ASET are designed to provide more direct measures of light performance.


Although Sarin, IS & ASET provide measures of light performance, all of them are by some measures interpretive of what you will actually see and like. Generally, these measures are thought to be pretty good, much better than a kick in the pants, and definitely all worth pursuing.

Thanks regular guy for your input. I''ve tried using that calculator you linked to, but it never works right. It always tells me my numbers are off, tells me my depth is too deep. But I''m putting in the numbers I have so I don''t know what''s going on. I was sent a Sarin report but I''ve ready that if the machine isn''t calibrated after every diamond, measurements could be off.

I''ve asked the diamond seller (union diamond) to get the idealscope and ASET reports. I''ll post them here when I do.

You are probably entering the %''s not the angles. Or the stone is really bad.

Everyone wants a digital readout for beauty. Bo Derek got 10, but there were many people in the world who thought she was really a 7.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/11/2010 1:59:34 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/11/2010 12:53:00 AM
Author: garek007

.

You are probably entering the %''s not the angles. Or the stone is really bad.

Everyone wants a digital readout for beauty. Bo Derek got 10, but there were many people in the world who thought she was really a 7.

 

[garek007]

I don''t think the stone is bad. It''s their highest rated cut, it''s got total depth of 71.5%, table of 69%, crown height of 8.5% and a medium girdle. (All confirmed by GIA report, except crown height which is by sarin).

But maybe it''s because I entered the crown height not the angle?

 

[tonyc2387]

this is a RB, right? that depth is way too high (by about 10% iirc) and crown height way too low (by about 6-7%, again, iirc)... if RB, really not that great a cut...

eta table is off by about 12% as well.

 

[Stone-cold11]

Date: 2/11/2010 11:22:37 AM
Author: tonyc2387
this is a RB, right? that depth is way too high (by about 10% iirc) and crown height way too low (by about 6-7%, again, iirc)... if RB, really not that great a cut...

eta table is off by about 12% as well.

OP is look for princess probably.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/11/2010 11:22:37 AM
Author: tonyc2387
this is a RB, right? that depth is way too high (by about 10% iirc) and crown height way too low (by about 6-7%, again, iirc)... if RB, really not that great a cut...

eta table is off by about 12% as well.

I think its a fancy shape like a Princess Tony by the sound of it, Garek what shape is this diamond please?

 

[tonyc2387]

I had a feeling of that too... would explain his troubles with the HCA.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/11/2010 11:39:25 AM
Author: tonyc2387
I had a feeling of that too... would explain his troubles with the HCA.

Its good to point these things out Tony especially for those new readers!

 

[oldminer]

A Sarin file can be used in DiamCalc to get some ray tracing informatiuon on light return and light behavior in a diamond that has been measured. DiamCalc also supports Helium and Ogi measuring tools. The Sarin I have does have a ray tracing program built in for only round diamonds, but some sort of disagreement between Sarin and the ray tracing software vendor made them eliminate this on the newest versions. I use DiamCalc most of the time for this estimation although the eyes of experts do a reasonably good job, too.

 

[Regular Guy]

Garek, for non-rounds, sarin probably won't help much with predicting light performance.

On the other hand, although ASET is preferred for fancies over IS...I do believe your IS looks very good. Hopefully others will advise as well.

 

[garek007]

yes you guys were right, it is a princess cut. here are some images. based on the attached images, is this a good diamond?

 

[garek007]

another

 

[garek007]

a

 

[Lorelei]

The images look good.

 

[garek007]

.

 

[Stone-cold11]

Looks good.

 

[yssie]

very nice!