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What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceScope?

Serg

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

MelisendeDiamonds|1416679571|3788566 said:
Serg|1416676594|3788547 said:
Melisende ,
How did You verify your definition of Brilliancy ?
2007 in the journal Optical Engineering, entitled “Evaluation of Brilliance, Fire, and Scintillation in Round Brilliant Gemstones." Foundational work on the project was published in Optics and Photonics News in April of 2003 entitled “The Optical Design of Gemstones." and references therein.

Serg,

I have found in the past getting into too many fine technical details all at once has not had the greatest impact on the general pricescope readership and I'm not sure it is the focus of this thread but I'll answer some of your questions briefly even though you claim my posts are "personal attacks" and are "attacking" me right now in much the same way.


Lets check you definition for simplest examples
1) 2mm and 6mm round diamonds, both have same AGS0 parameters
which diamond is more Brilliant?
Which Diamond is more Bright?
Which diamond has more ability to Return more light to the viewers eyes?

Size is an important factor especially for virtual facet size and it should be taken into consideration. The large majority of examples I have posted (with a couple notable exceptions) are within 1 - 2 ct range which is the sweet spot for "light performance branded diamonds" given cost of rough, saleability, and yield concerns.

if you see any difference in Brilliancy for these 2 diamonds and you do not see any difference in ASET images for same diamonds then you need change your statements about Brilliancy and connections between Brilliancy and ASET images.

2) compare 1ct AGS0 round diamond in static position and same diamond during tilting.
please give answers for same questions.
3) if you saw 20-50 ct round diamond with AGS0 proportions, please compare Brilliancy for such big round diamond with 1ct AGS0 RBC.

A static ASET image is not the whole story, if I am presenting I would present a simulated video with the diamonds rocking under ASET lighting. If thats not practical a few ASET images with each with tilt 5 degrees in each direction would still be instructive.
Octonus Diamcalc is extremely helpful in this regard especially for providing standardized lighting and for controlling tilt so thank-you for that.


Your personal attacks to some trade persons are not pleasant and avoid other professionals to publish them opinions.

You did not answer on my questions.
If somebody publish statements in peer review journal, it does not mean you have to believe in to these statements without checking.
Please try to answer on my questions yourself and you most probably will reject Brilliancy definition from “Evaluation of Brilliance, Fire, and Scintillation in Round Brilliant Gemstones."
Even publications in "Nature" have critical mistakes sometimes.
 

MelisendeDiamonds

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Serg|1416681349|3788578 said:
You did not answer on my questions.
If somebody publish statements in peer review journal, it does not mean you have to believe in to these statements without checking.
Please try to answer on my questions yourself and you most probably will reject Brilliancy definition from “Evaluation of Brilliance, Fire, and Scintillation in Round Brilliant Gemstones." Even publications in "Nature" have critical mistakes sometimes.

You have the Contrarian outlook on this and that is your right. I could introduce you to some old bitter Professors I knew that held the same kind of outlook as you do. After 40 years they sit sullenly in their offices wondering why their peers never adopted their work as much as they should have. Perhaps they shouldn't have focussed their time on refuting past fundamental publications in order to promote their own work, it rarely works.

I have done a lot of my own anaylsis on the AGSL system and tools, have had years worth of conversations with Jason and Peter and I can say with confidence, there is great merit in their research and definitions and good correlation with my own observations in most areas.
 

Serg

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

If you can not compare correctly Brilliancy by ASET Between 2mm and 6 mm round diamonds then you can not compare By ASET Brilliancy between round cut and fancy cuts . many 1ct Fancy cuts have many Virtual facets with sizes similar to 2mm round cut.

Just simple logic.
Avoid dogmas and simplification.

ASET is big simplification.

ASET do not say enough about Brilliancy. It is instrument to Find diamond similar to sample .
 

Serg

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

MelisendeDiamonds|1416685527|3788612 said:
Serg|1416681349|3788578 said:
You did not answer on my questions.
If somebody publish statements in peer review journal, it does not mean you have to believe in to these statements without checking.
Please try to answer on my questions yourself and you most probably will reject Brilliancy definition from “Evaluation of Brilliance, Fire, and Scintillation in Round Brilliant Gemstones." Even publications in "Nature" have critical mistakes sometimes.

You have the Contrarian outlook on this and that is your right. I could introduce you to some old bitter Professors I knew that held the same kind of outlook as you do. After 40 years they sit sullenly in their offices wondering why their peers never adopted their work as much as they should have. Perhaps they shouldn't have focussed their time on refuting past fundamental publications in order to promote their own work, it rarely works.

I have done a lot of my own anaylsis on the AGSL system and tools, have had years worth of conversations with Jason and Peter and I can say with confidence, there is great merit in their research and definitions and good correlation with my own observations in most areas.

Instead to give answers for simple questions You start personal attack and refer to you connections .
Do you have anything more valuable than your communications with AGSL, GIA?

You use exactly same level "proof" as David.
 

MelisendeDiamonds

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Serg|1416686711|3788622 said:
MelisendeDiamonds|1416685527|3788612 said:
Serg|1416681349|3788578 said:
You did not answer on my questions.
If somebody publish statements in peer review journal, it does not mean you have to believe in to these statements without checking.
Please try to answer on my questions yourself and you most probably will reject Brilliancy definition from “Evaluation of Brilliance, Fire, and Scintillation in Round Brilliant Gemstones." Even publications in "Nature" have critical mistakes sometimes.

You have the Contrarian outlook on this and that is your right. I could introduce you to some old bitter Professors I knew that held the same kind of outlook as you do. After 40 years they sit sullenly in their offices wondering why their peers never adopted their work as much as they should have. Perhaps they shouldn't have focussed their time on refuting past fundamental publications in order to promote their own work, it rarely works.

I have done a lot of my own anaylsis on the AGSL system and tools, have had years worth of conversations with Jason and Peter and I can say with confidence, there is great merit in their research and definitions and good correlation with my own observations in most areas.

Instead to give answers for simple questions You start personal attack and refer to you connections .
Do you have anything more valuable than your communications with AGSL, GIA?

You use exactly same level "proof" as David.

Answer your own Bellicose questions. Why don't you "teach" us all how we should answer them as you clearly didn't like my answers.
Then spend a few hours "proving" your answers by typing up pages of technical detail in this thread that noone will read or comment on. It is rather intuitive to me, absolute and relative virtual facet size are both important but I have no interest in playing your game.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Serg,
A discussion about the nature of "brilliancy" would be clearly worthwhile. Your point about it's relationship to size is important and probably not discussed as much as it should be. Unless there is a common understanding of the fundamental aspects of diamond performance, it is difficult to have constructive dialogue. But don't you think that discussion belongs in a new thread?

The tone of the exchange you and Haroutioun are having is what several of us have mentioned in this thread as a reason that people are reluctant to participate. You are both knowlegeable and have plenty of value to offer. Is it not possible to keep the exchanges more respectful and strive for a meeting of minds?

Again, I don't think anyone objects to tough debate. But too many discussions seem to take on a "zero sum game" feel to me: I win,you lose.

I would like to learn more about the relationship of diamond size to brilliancy. If you start a thread I think many of us would follow it.
 

Serg

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Texas Leaguer|1416691927|3788653 said:
Serg,
A discussion about the nature of "brilliancy" would be clearly worthwhile. Your point about it's relationship to size is important and probably not discussed as much as it should be. Unless there is a common understanding of the fundamental aspects of diamond performance, it is difficult to have constructive dialogue. But don't you think that discussion belongs in a new thread?

The tone of the exchange you and Haroutioun are having is what several of us have mentioned in this thread as a reason that people are reluctant to participate. You are both knowlegeable and have plenty of value to offer. Is it not possible to keep the exchanges more respectful and strive for a meeting of minds?

Again, I don't think anyone objects to tough debate. But too many discussions seem to take on a "zero sum game" feel to me: I win,you lose.

I would like to learn more about the relationship of diamond size to brilliancy. If you start a thread I think many of us would follow it.

Bryan,
we have 1-4 hours training course about the nature Brilliancy and Fire. The training course works very successfully, but I technically can not delivery such knowledge in text format. During course we use Stereo static images and Stereo movies , real diamonds. On PS I can not show stereo movies. if I just publish our Brilliancy definition, it does not work( I did it several times).
Only one way to delivery such knowledge by chat is questions. You may take my questions, real diamonds and find answers yourself. I do not ask to believe me, I ask to start finding answers yourself. Questions is very important part of education , right questions help a lot.
I spent 20 years to find these questions and I publish free of charge these questions here.
My answers are much less important than my questions.
 

Karl_K

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Texas Leaguer|1416691927|3788653 said:
The tone of the exchange you and Haroutioun are having is what several of us have mentioned in this thread as a reason that people are reluctant to participate. You are both knowlegeable and have plenty of value to offer. Is it not possible to keep the exchanges more respectful and strive for a meeting of minds?
I disagree there is nothing wrong with Serg's questions.
How people take them is a different matter, when you think you know everything Serg has a habit of asking a question that makes you wonder if you know anything. If one responds with ego like happened in this thread one learns nothing.
If you think about it and try it yourself you can learn a lot, even if you find out you disagree with him.
Its tough on the ego sometimes and some people can not handle that at all.
Heck he has made me grumpy a time or 2, but by putting my ego aside for a bit at times I have learned a ton from him. That is what worked in the early days of PS people putting ego aside and learning together.
 

MelisendeDiamonds

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Karl_K|1416710573|3788755 said:
Texas Leaguer|1416691927|3788653 said:
The tone of the exchange you and Haroutioun are having is what several of us have mentioned in this thread as a reason that people are reluctant to participate. You are both knowlegeable and have plenty of value to offer. Is it not possible to keep the exchanges more respectful and strive for a meeting of minds?
I disagree there is nothing wrong with Serg's questions.

Heck he has made me grumpy a time or 2, but by putting my ego aside for a bit at times I have learned a ton from him. That is what worked in the early days of PS people putting ego aside and learning together.

Then by all means Karl if you think they are valid questions and they are appropriate tangent to this thread than go ahead and answer them. If you are going to teach then teach, put away your ego and stop telling us how much you know but rather what you know, you are free to give the answers and explain why.
 

yssie

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Lately it seems inevitable that every last discussion thread devolves into puerile argument of whether or not there's merit to the statement that ORCs are brilliant, regardless of the topic originally posed - so I'm just going to reply to the one I originally wanted to respond to:

denverappraiser|1416417675|3786516 said:
I have cut way back on my participation here although I’m not one of the professionals who have fully gone away. For me the issue has been time. I tend to write fairly long posts and I try to thoughtfully answer the question given. Some take over an hour to put together and typical is at least 10 minutes, and I type pretty fast. I spend more time reading than I do writing. I’ve got 7400 posts. At 10 minutes each plus another 10 minutes worth of reading, that’s something like 2400 hours that I’ve devoted to this body of work. I’m not complaining, it’s worked out pretty well for me, I’m just explaining the logic. That’s YEAR of full time work! The payoff, for me, has been in improving my overall reputation both with the public and within the trade, improving my education, and improving my ability to explain certain things to clients. I do get some clients who look me up here but, frankly, it’s not all that many. Like jewelers, appraisals are mostly a local affair. I’ve made some remarkably good friends including, for example, two of the groomsmen at my wedding (I got married in 2012). I find it entertaining and it definitely gives me something to talk about at the appraiser conventions. I don’t regret it a bit but I can certainly see how a neighborhood jeweler would be shy to dive into that.

Neil, count me in as another who has always appreciated your posts - as I have Wink's, Bryan's, John's, Jon's, Karl's, Jim's, Dave's, David's, Paul's, Garry's, Serg's, Yoram's, Jeff's, Brian's, Bruce's, Grace's, Erica's... I haven't been on PS much at all recently; DH and I have spent this year dealing with a slew of health issues, home issues, pet issues, job drama... and as someone who used to post often and verbosely I can most definitely believe that participation here as a tradesperson requires a significant time commitment! I hope our experts know that their time and contributions are much appreciated ::)

And RandG and DS - I just have to say that I really enjoyed your exchange ::)
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Serg|1416552738|3787801 said:
re:What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceScope?

May be other question is more adequate :

what happen to all the independent professional researchers on PriceScope and diamond industry?

in beginning 21st century we saw( firstly on Gemkey, DiamondTalk then on PS_ many discussions between professional researches:
Bruce Harding, Marty Hasky, Michail Cowing , Al Gilberson , I many others ( even some persons from GIA as Illen Reintiz did some posts)
they ( not professional jewelers ) raised issues .

PS culture and business model do not motivate more ( and may be even penalty) such discussions .
10 years ago PS has progressive community , vision. Current PS is conservative community now: same questions, same answers.
in 2014 I and spending to reading PS in 100 times less time than in 2004. It become more and more boring more me, there is not more source for new knowledge , new ideas on PS. It is pity.
Hi Sergey,
How would you change it? What do you see as the 'penalty' and where it is applied?
who are todays researchers who could or should be here?
 

Gypsy

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Yssie|1416723484|3788838 said:
Lately it seems inevitable that every last discussion thread devolves into puerile argument of whether or not there's merit to the statement that ORCs are brilliant, regardless of the topic originally posed - so I'm just going to reply to the one I originally wanted to respond to:

denverappraiser|1416417675|3786516 said:
I have cut way back on my participation here although I’m not one of the professionals who have fully gone away. For me the issue has been time. I tend to write fairly long posts and I try to thoughtfully answer the question given. Some take over an hour to put together and typical is at least 10 minutes, and I type pretty fast. I spend more time reading than I do writing. I’ve got 7400 posts. At 10 minutes each plus another 10 minutes worth of reading, that’s something like 2400 hours that I’ve devoted to this body of work. I’m not complaining, it’s worked out pretty well for me, I’m just explaining the logic. That’s YEAR of full time work! The payoff, for me, has been in improving my overall reputation both with the public and within the trade, improving my education, and improving my ability to explain certain things to clients. I do get some clients who look me up here but, frankly, it’s not all that many. Like jewelers, appraisals are mostly a local affair. I’ve made some remarkably good friends including, for example, two of the groomsmen at my wedding (I got married in 2012). I find it entertaining and it definitely gives me something to talk about at the appraiser conventions. I don’t regret it a bit but I can certainly see how a neighborhood jeweler would be shy to dive into that.

Neil, count me in as another who has always appreciated your posts - as I have Wink's, Bryan's, John's, Jon's, Karl's, Jim's, Dave's, David's, Paul's, Garry's, Serg's, Yoram's, Jeff's, Brian's, Bruce's, Grace's, Erica's... I can most definitely believe that participation here as a tradesperson requires a significant time commitment! I hope our experts know that their time and contributions are much appreciated ::)


I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I can't tell you how much I've learned from ALL of you. I can't think of anyone on the list that I haven't learned from... even David.

Your posts are appreciated and while I do realize the forum has gotten much more boring as it's popularity has caught on and nearly every post is now about finding a particular stone, but that doesn't mean that those of us who are regulars don't REALLY appreciate the posts where we can learn from you all.

And if you find the board boring-- by all means PLEASE post topics that excite YOU and open up a discussion with the other experts. And we can just read along and learn. I LOVE THAT. And the experts here used to start threads MUCH more often. So I think it would be fantastic if all of you who are bored with the current content would post more thought provoking and interesting threads.

We get bored here too.

For example, I'd love to see the appraisers, Neal, Old Miner, Modified Brilliant, etc. start a thread comparing the pluses and minuses of buying from Tiffany, Cartier, HW, etc. versus a larger generic stone of excellent make. From an appraiser's point of view. And have them tell us about how they think the cut quality of the luxury brands compare. How the depreciation works out. Etc.

Many posters have a love or hate relationship with luxury brand engagement rings. But I'd love to learn what the appraisers think.

There are MANY topics that could be explored, and that we would all benefit from... and not just for the break from the endless... help me find this round brilliant post.
 

Diamond2014

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Gypsy,

You're right about new posts these days. They're pretty much all consist of "Help me look for a stone" or "Please check out my ideal scope and aset scope and tell me if it's good stone". I have been here for two months learning, but mostly getting resources from posts dates back to 10 years ago, that I find it most resourceful, and those were posted and debates among the professionals.

Posts consist of "Help me look for a stone" or "Please check out my ideal scope and aset scope and tell me if it's good", I tend to skip those myself. I find those kind of posts are not looking to learn, but more looking for a quick answer, like a cheat sheet on high school exam.

As far as "comparing the pluses and minuses of buying from Tiffany, Cartier, HW, etc"... I think PriceScope rules prohibit many people to join this kind of debate, which is ashamed. I dont think PriceScope should mute anyone, and take away their freedom of speech.
 

Gypsy

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

I don't know if they would prohibit that. Yes, vendors can't comment on specific stones. But a general discussion by appraisers of their impressions and experience I think would be allowed. Certainly, all an appraiser would have to do is message Andrey or Ella and ask if it is okay. I've done that myself when I'm posting a topic or a post I am concerned about. They will tell you right off the bat if you are in the clear or not.

They are actually quite reasonable.
 

Serg

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Garry H (Cut Nut)|1416724617|3788845 said:
Serg|1416552738|3787801 said:
re:What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceScope?

May be other question is more adequate :

what happen to all the independent professional researchers on PriceScope and diamond industry?

in beginning 21st century we saw( firstly on Gemkey, DiamondTalk then on PS_ many discussions between professional researches:
Bruce Harding, Marty Hasky, Michail Cowing , Al Gilberson , I many others ( even some persons from GIA as Illen Reintiz did some posts)
they ( not professional jewelers ) raised issues .

PS culture and business model do not motivate more ( and may be even penalty) such discussions .
10 years ago PS has progressive community , vision. Current PS is conservative community now: same questions, same answers.
in 2014 I and spending to reading PS in 100 times less time than in 2004. It become more and more boring more me, there is not more source for new knowledge , new ideas on PS. It is pity.
Hi Sergey,
How would you change it? What do you see as the 'penalty' and where it is applied?
who are todays researchers who could or should be here?

Hi Garry,
1) Seems I can not change it now. I discussed this problem actively with you and Andrew 5-6 years ago, I tried explained negative effects of PS banned system and moderator policy . I suggested to avoid "Killed -Banned" system and use more soft "score" systems with public notices, warnings and Temporal banned system( instead permit banned system which "kill avatar".
2) many interesting persons had been banned in last years. Many active and interesting threads had been locked and even deleted.
I informed you how I was disappointed and demotivated by such moderators policy ( most these discussions had not any personal attacks)
after few such cases I reduced PS time in 10-100 times .
Btw. I have to break PS rules to give answers on above your questions. by formal rules the moderator have to ban me now.
there is a huge difference between PS2002-2005 and PS2006-2014.
I ignore new moderator rules and follow culture of PS2002 , I am ready to be banned.
3) for my filling researchers will not back to PS. PS society is to aggressive to dissents, questions . PS become to conservative and reject Thinking process. PS community defends status quo . It was similar with DiamondTalk in days when you and me had banned from DiamondTalk. some members hate me for simple questions like: what do you see by your eyes? which diamond is more Bright for you?
I do not ask questions "WHY" you see it( because answers for such questions are too difficult ).
I ask WHAT do you see by naked eye. just take together five 2 mm round diamonds and compare with single 6mm round diamond.
but nobody like give answers. most of them afraid to receive answers which against "PS public knowledge". PS's afraid to change mind, to Create new knowledge . 10 years ago I saw different PS and nobody afraid to do such tests and publish them opinion ( them private opinion instead links to journals )
 

Diamond2014

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Knowledge comes from more than just one individual. It comes from a collective set of debates, that discover additional knowledge. When PriceScope decided to ban someone, PriceScope basically saying that the banned member's idea and debate is invalid and value the opposition. PriceScope don't have the right to do that.

I think there should be a censored option, in which when one member find another member to be too annoying, they can set an IGNORE or BLOCK option to hide/collapse the blocked party's post. But of course, there would be quite some programming involved, hence probably will not happen. :wall:
 

Gypsy

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Diamond2014|1416730982|3788864 said:
Knowledge comes from more than just one individual. It comes from a collective set of debates, that discover additional knowledge. When PriceScope decided to ban someone, PriceScope basically saying that the banned member's idea and debate is invalid and value the opposition. PriceScope don't have the right to do that.

I don't agree with this. There are vendors and pros and consumers with a fantastic amount of experience and knowledge but they cannot seem to play well with others and refrain from attacking, insulting, or belittling posters. Some of the vendors believe that the 'prosumers' are ignorant idiots that should be seen and not heard, and they said so. In fact, one vendor said just that this last week. :roll:

I don't believe banning equals an invalidation or a rejection experience or knowledge. Sometimes it just means "Hey you, you've been given chance after chance to play nicely with others but you don't respect the other posters or this forum enough to do so, and we're kicking you out."

It's a two way street. Yes, PS has to value and respect dissenting opinions and radical knowledge. But the posters HAVE to respect the forum and the other members. And when they FAIL to do so repeatedly they are correctly banned.

I've been banned myself for being rude. And you know what? IT WAS MY FAULT. They were RIGHT to ban me.

One prosumer who was a fantastic source of knowledge literally went psycho stalker on another prosumer. Should PS just ignore that???

A couple months ago I reported on vendor who literally posted on someone newbie's thread that their question was asinine and they were clearly an idiot. :o

What is PS supposed to do in situations like that? Just let them run wild because they are intelligent and have good information? NO.
 

Gypsy

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Diamond2014|1416730982|3788864 said:
I think there should be a censored option, in which when one member find another member to be too annoying, they can set an IGNORE or BLOCK option to hide/collapse the blocked party's post. But of course, there would be quite some programming involved, hence probably will not happen. :wall:


I think we do have this already.
 

Diamond2014

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

I live in the US, hence freedom of speech is important to me, and I take that to the heart. Even if I don't agree on certain subject or what's being said by certain individual, I still think their posts are still a valuable resource.

If it's just a verbally debate (valid or invalid debate), that should be allowed. I think only if an individual become a threat (physically or mentally) to another individual (as you mentioned one prosumer went psycho and stalking), then banning should be utilized.
 

Gypsy

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Here's the thing. This isn't a government intellectual think tank salon. This is a business. Just like a bar with bouncers.

If vendors OR consumers are rude or dismissive or insulting it drives AWAY consumers and posters. Having people fight, call others idiots, etc. is not good for moral. It does NOT encourage free speech and it does not make new posters comfortable to post here.

Do you think you a Whiskey makers has right to walk into a bar and start berating some hapless consumer for drinking something other than his Whiskey? Or for drinking Vodka? Or do you think it would be okay if consumer stood up to the Whiskey maker and was rude back and started a fight in the middle of the bar?


NO.
Is it okay for a Bar to post a sign that says "No shirt, no shoes, no service" or "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Yes, of course it is okay.

Same applies here. What you seem to forget is this: This isn't some government run non-profit intellectual salon. It's a PRIVATE board owned by PRIVATE people trying to make a profit who are allowed to have as many BOUNCERS as they want and whatever rules they want.

Freedom of speech is all well and good. But freedom of speech does not equal: you can be rude and obnoxious wherever and whenever you want.

Think of this place as a privately owned bar. And you'll see why it is okay to have bouncers. And rules.
 

TC1987

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Diamond2014|1416725852|3788849 said:
...

Posts consist of "Help me look for a stone" or "Please check out my ideal scope and aset scope and tell me if it's good", I tend to skip those myself. I find those kind of posts are not looking to learn, but more looking for a quick answer, like a cheat sheet on high school exam.
...

Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with that. Many people are just looking to buy one diamond, one time, for an engagement ring or an anniversary upgrade or just for fun, and they don't want to become experts because they most likely will never need to use all that knowledge again. Or they won't need it until it's time to buy an upgrade, years later. Look how many people just go buy a car and they make that purchase without spending weeks or months researching and becoming an expert on cars.
Unless they are asking people of Pricescope to do it all for them, or are becoming too demanding and/or combative or insulting (that has happened), I don't see any problem. They just want to make the purchase, get reasonable quality and value for their money, and get on with their lives.
 

Gypsy

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Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

TC1987|1416739704|3788894 said:
Diamond2014|1416725852|3788849 said:
...

Posts consist of "Help me look for a stone" or "Please check out my ideal scope and aset scope and tell me if it's good", I tend to skip those myself. I find those kind of posts are not looking to learn, but more looking for a quick answer, like a cheat sheet on high school exam.
...

Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with that. Many people are just looking to buy one diamond, one time, for an engagement ring or an anniversary upgrade or just for fun, and they don't want to become experts because they most likely will never need to use all that knowledge again. Or they won't need it until it's time to buy an upgrade, or whatever. Look how many people just go buy a car and they make that purchase without spending weeks or months or whatever, researching and becoming an expert on cars.
Unless they are asking people of Pricescope to do it all for them, or are becoming too demanding and/or combative or insulting (that has happened), I don't see any problem. They just want to make the purchase, get reasonable quality and value for their money, and get on with their lives.


Totally agree. 100000000%
 

RandG

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
675
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Yssie|1416723484|3788838 said:
Lately it seems inevitable that every last discussion thread devolves into puerile argument of whether or not there's merit to the statement that ORCs are brilliant, regardless of the topic originally posed - so I'm just going to reply to the one I originally wanted to respond to:
Neil, count me in as another who has always appreciated your posts - as I have Wink's, Bryan's, John's, Jon's, Karl's, Jim's, Dave's, David's, Paul's, Garry's, Serg's, Yoram's, Jeff's, Brian's, Bruce's, Grace's, Erica's... I haven't been on PS much at all recently; DH and I have spent this year dealing with a slew of health issues, home issues, pet issues, job drama... and as someone who used to post often and verbosely I can most definitely believe that participation here as a tradesperson requires a significant time commitment! I hope our experts know that their time and contributions are much appreciated ::)

And RandG and DS - I just have to say that I really enjoyed your exchange ::)


Much appreciated! I am no match for Diamondseeker though!
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,760
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Gypsy|1416736416|3788880 said:
Here's the thing. This isn't a government intellectual think tank salon. This is a business. Just like a bar with bouncers.

If vendors OR consumers are rude or dismissive or insulting it drives AWAY consumers and posters. Having people fight, call others idiots, etc. is not good for moral. It does NOT encourage free speech and it does not make new posters comfortable to post here.

Do you think you a Whiskey makers has right to walk into a bar and start berating some hapless consumer for drinking something other than his Whiskey? Or for drinking Vodka? Or do you think it would be okay if consumer stood up to the Whiskey maker and was rude back and started a fight in the middle of the bar?


NO.
Is it okay for a Bar to post a sign that says "No shirt, no shoes, no service" or "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Yes, of course it is okay.

Same applies here. What you seem to forget is this: This isn't some government run non-profit intellectual salon. It's a PRIVATE board owned by PRIVATE people trying to make a profit who are allowed to have as many BOUNCERS as they want and whatever rules they want.

Freedom of speech is all well and good. But freedom of speech does not equal: you can be rude and obnoxious wherever and whenever you want.

Think of this place as a privately owned bar. And you'll see why it is okay to have bouncers. And rules.
Love this analogy!! Really puts the subject in perspective.

As I said earlier the moderators have a constant challenge in keeping the right balance. As bouncers they don't want to kick out customers just because they may be a little abrasive or sometimes inappropriate. But if their behavior begins affecting the atmosphere of the establishment in negative way, that is bad for business and bad for all the customers who would otherwise like to be regulars at the bar.

Cheers!
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,760
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Karl_K|1416710573|3788755 said:
Texas Leaguer|1416691927|3788653 said:
The tone of the exchange you and Haroutioun are having is what several of us have mentioned in this thread as a reason that people are reluctant to participate. You are both knowlegeable and have plenty of value to offer. Is it not possible to keep the exchanges more respectful and strive for a meeting of minds?
I disagree there is nothing wrong with Serg's questions.
How people take them is a different matter, when you think you know everything Serg has a habit of asking a question that makes you wonder if you know anything. If one responds with ego like happened in this thread one learns nothing.
If you think about it and try it yourself you can learn a lot, even if you find out you disagree with him.
Its tough on the ego sometimes and some people can not handle that at all.
Heck he has made me grumpy a time or 2, but by putting my ego aside for a bit at times I have learned a ton from him. That is what worked in the early days of PS people putting ego aside and learning together.
Karl, I agree 100% that there is nothing wrong with Serg's questions. All learning begins with asking questions. The biggest key to finding answers is asking the right questions. And as we proceed we have to regularly test ourselves by re-asking the simple questions and making sure that our new "knowlege" in fact still answers those questions - challenging the status quo if you will. (I believe Serg sometimes refers to early maps of the world to illustrate this point). And that is exactly why I think it is a good idea to double back to the basic question of how size relates to what we think we know about light performance. (in a new thread).

My comments were aimed at the importance of TONE in our discussions. And if it appeared I was singling out Serg I apologize. In the exchange that I refered to there were caustic remarks on both sides, and I have seen a number of other instances of unnecessarily negative exchanges in other threads by various posters.

I guess my point is that if we want to foster an atmosphere of constructive dialogue we should not rely on the moderators. We need to self-police. As trades people I feel we have a greater duty to make sure our posts are positive and constructive. I know that people are passionate about certain subjects, but if everyone would think twice before hitting the send button I think more people would join in the discussions.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,691
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

I believe a large part of the anger in responses is due to the limitation of how difficult it is for many of us to express precisely what we want to in the written form. Many participants are struggling with language barriers that are increased in difficulty as one gets into a highly technical discussion while at the same time attempting to make the knowledge being presented understandable for our less technically knowledgeable audience members. Sometimes there is a way to express exactly what one's viewpoint is and then there are times where writing it out just does not convey the proper message. Also, the writing style of some creates a feeling that they are being adversarial, when they may mean to be just giving their opposing opinion. We ought to be able to bridge these divides, but it seems in the nature of many people to get hostile before their options for understanding one another have really been exhausted. All of us live with our personal frustrations, but we need to hold them in check when responding to one another in order to get to the facts and truths which seemingly are there, but hidden.

I am interested in diamond light performance and comparison of the various analysis techniques which exist today. I'd like to see a scientifically conducted investigation to make valid and lasting comparisons. I do not currently like to view ASET or Ideal-Scope images, or other analytical images in order to provide comparison about which stone is a little better or a little worse. I trust my eyes, or even trust the eyes of the consumer, more than predicting it by tools and not relying on what the diamonds look like.

The debate about where all the professionals have gone is one of the reasons many have gone. While banning self promotion and some other elements, we still can beat each other up pretty well. We can do better within the rules of Pricescope. Maybe there could be a place where there would be fewer or no rules somewhere, but it would not be a place for suitable for consumers. Since that defeats the point of Pricescope, I guess it needs to be somewhere else entirely. I doubt most professionals would find such a place beneficial for spending time there and the forum would be run by the bullies who don't get along nicely. That is human nature, I suppose.

I suppose we ought to use Pricescope for what it can best do and not worry about the part that must not be here due to the rules. :naughty:
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
20,044
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Gypsy|1416740096|3788896 said:
TC1987|1416739704|3788894 said:
Diamond2014|1416725852|3788849 said:
...

Posts consist of "Help me look for a stone" or "Please check out my ideal scope and aset scope and tell me if it's good", I tend to skip those myself. I find those kind of posts are not looking to learn, but more looking for a quick answer, like a cheat sheet on high school exam.
...

Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with that. Many people are just looking to buy one diamond, one time, for an engagement ring or an anniversary upgrade or just for fun, and they don't want to become experts because they most likely will never need to use all that knowledge again. Or they won't need it until it's time to buy an upgrade, or whatever. Look how many people just go buy a car and they make that purchase without spending weeks or months or whatever, researching and becoming an expert on cars.
Unless they are asking people of Pricescope to do it all for them, or are becoming too demanding and/or combative or insulting (that has happened), I don't see any problem. They just want to make the purchase, get reasonable quality and value for their money, and get on with their lives.


Totally agree. 100000000%

Another one who agrees with the above.
Also,that's typically how prosumers start. After they learn a little, they want more.

Even if they don't, though, its nice to see people share whatever amount of knowledge that particular poster is looking for to complete a worth while ( to them) purchase.
 

AprilBaby

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
13,234
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

This is one of the best discussions we have had in a long time.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

It is really frustrating as a consumer to watch the arguing when you feel you may lose one of the most valuable posters. Serg is obviously a brilliantly clever man and lots of people reading here and who will read this in future years on the web are very interested to hear what he has to say about brilliancy. Please do not fall out with our most intellectual members.

I do not understand often from first reading some of the technical things discussed but after a few reads I can get the general understanding and therefore it is educational and also something others interested in diamonds should persevere with or would persevere with if it is their hobby too.

Like Gypsy I would also be interested to hear about the top brand diamonds from appraisers or anything else other than just find me a diamond.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
18,422
Re: What happen to all the professional jewelers on PriceSco

Melisende ,
How did You verify your definition of Brilliancy ?

Lets check you definition for simplest examples
1) 2mm and 6mm round diamonds, both have same AGS0 parameters
which diamond is more Brilliant?
Which Diamond is more Bright?
Which diamond has more ability to Return more light to the viewers eyes?

if you see any difference in Brilliancy for these 2 diamonds and you do not see any difference in ASET images for same diamonds then you need change your statements about Brilliancy and connections between Brilliancy and ASET images.
2) compare 1ct AGS0 round diamond in static position and same diamond during tilting.
please give answers for same questions.
3) if you saw 20-50 ct round diamond with AGS0 proportions, please compare Brilliancy for such big round diamond with 1ct AGS0 RBC.

Your personal attacks to some trade persons are not pleasant and avoid other professionals to publish them opinions .[/quote]

I have just shown this box of diamonds to 8 of my staff.

I asked about Sergey's question 1:
Which is brighter - 7 said the cluster. Two chose the 1ct round. A few said the 1ct round looked darker.
Which is more brilliant 5 said the cluster and 4 said the the single stone
Which has more attractive firey flashes 3 said the cluster and 6 went for the single stone. One said there was no red in the smaller stones.
Most of the bright/ brilliance viewing was done at office fluoro light work stations. For fire I took people to the shop spot lighting areas as there is little or no fire visible at the work stations.

Question 2 (just me). In very low light the larger stone still has some 'life' - mainly as a result of contrast flashing.
in most lighting the larger stone is more attractive because it has bolder discernable flashes; this is exaggerated when i take off my reading glasses.

I do not have a +20ct stone :( But I expect is will appear rather boring - but it will have huge almost blinding flashes of sparkle brilliance and fire.
I would like to say thank Sergey and I hope I passed the test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwy-CPaXgOc.

2014-11-24_10.jpg
 
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