Went to a B&M - please give me your opinion of my experience

[phiberoptik]

Ok so I have a few posts on here and Ive read quite a bit throughout here and Ive tried to teach myself the above the basic knowledge about diamond shopping.

I stopped in a local place yesterday to see what they had to offer and I actually left rather stressed out.

I said I was a budget minded person and she started showing me designer stuff where the setting was less than $1000 away from my budget limit. Nice stuff exactly like I want mine to look like, but out of my price range.

We started talking diamonds and I said that I would like to see diamonds and know the %''s and angles and stuff since GIA does not do a cut certification on fancy cut diamonds (I am looking at princess cuts). She spent over 5 minutes virtually arguing with me about this. Pointing out symmetry and polish and such. I kept stressing I just wanted to make sure that they werent going to sell me a diamond and say its Excellent cut and GIA certified because I know GIA is not the one calling it Excellent and that I have seen different places claim different labels without following the same cut standards.

I mentioned that I would like to see idealscope images of diamonds if possible. She looked like I had just asked her to take her shirt off for me! She had no idea what i was talking about... insisted that I meant Gem scope, and proceeded to tell me I didnt know what I was talking about. I said an ideal scope shows a red/black/white image of the diamond showing where the light reflects and doesnt reflect. She then said that I was talking about a proportion scope and that it would not help me tell the cut quality of the diamond. AM I CONFUSED HERE??? Is MY info wrong? All I hear people talk about on here are idealscope images....

Im so flustered because I am very nervous to purchase online and I cannot find a place that sells both a setting I like and a diamond I like. If I buy a diamond, most B&M places are going to be pricks about setting it for me because its not THEIR diamond.

HELP. This is becoming a NON-fun occasion for me.

Thank you PS''rs

 

[fabcrab]

I''m sorry you had to go through a terrible experience in a B&M store! The biggest problem I have is they tend to ignore me most of the time because I look young

. Please don''t let this experience put a damper on buying your perfect ring. My advice is to seriously consider one of the reputable PS vendors. My e-ring is from Whiteflash and I couldn''t be any happier!

 

[kcoursolle]

In my experiences, ideal scopes are really only known through pricescope vendors and within the pricescope community. I''m not surprised that she didn''t know what it was. It is unfortunate however, and she shouldn''t have argued with you about it. You info was not incorrect, but unfortunately many B&M''s I''ve been to did not know very much about diamonds and looked at me like I was from another country when I started talking about HCA, ideal scope, etc.

I would suggest working with someone you are more comfortable with and perhaps a pricescope vendor since you will be able to better speak a similar language.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 7/24/2007 5:13:36 PM
Author: kcoursolle
In my experiences, ideal scopes are really only known through pricescope vendors and within the pricescope community. I''m not surprised that she didn''t know what it was. It is unfortunate however, and she shouldn''t have argued with you about it. You info was not incorrect, but unfortunately many B&M''s I''ve been to did not know very much about diamonds and looked at me like I was from another country when I started talking about HCA, ideal scope, etc.

I would suggest working with someone you are more comfortable with and perhaps a pricescope vendor since you will be able to better speak a similar language.

Ditto what Kcoursolle said. Also, sales people are afraid of knowledge since you probably will know more than the sales associate. Kudos on learning so much!

 

[strmrdr]

She didnt know what an IS was and handled it badly.
A Proportion Loupe is shown here about 1/2 way down:
http://www.kassoy.com/loupes03.htm

It is likely the only thing she has seen that matched what she thought you were talking about.

 

[phiberoptik]

I think my biggest hurddle is talking about something I have only read about on the net. I probably lack confidence when I talk to them but its so hard to see a diamond in front of me at a 3/4 ct size and see a huge difference in one to the other.

Oh and this lady actually said ideal depth is 60-74% and Table should be as high as possible!!! "Because a princess cut is all table"

Even I know thats a crock of crap.

I had her pull another lady over and that lady said table should be in the low to mid 70''s.


Can anyone give me a very good basis to compare depth and table. I have read or see Depth at 60-75% and table from 62-72% are what I need to aim for, but does a D=60% and T=72% make for a brilliant diamond?

This still confuses me.

Thanks everyone!! You are some active posters today. Im leaving work. When I get home I expect to see atleast 10 replies hahaha

 

[angeline]

Sounds like a bad SA. Don''t argue with the customer! Listen to what they want and show them things in or sliiightly above their budget. I find in general most people don''t listen to you.

You don''t have the problem here, she does.

I don''t know much about princess cuts except that AGS do a certification on them and WF sell those.

It''s not really a problem to buy a stone and get someone else to set it. What type of setting are you after? If you find a setting you like at a B&M, check Pearlman''s (www.pearlmansjewelers.com) for example to see if they carry it. I think they give a nice discount to PS''ers too. It is a bit of a pain shipping diamonds around but well worth it to get a superior cut stone at a good price, with ALL the info you require.

Good luck!

 

[jdneal22]

Check out exceldiamonds.com . I just got my ering and diamond there. great experience. very knowledgeable and informative. Tons of testimonials. and a great selection...

 

[strmrdr]

depth is deceptive in a princess cut:
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/21/1/The-matter-of-depth-in-a-princess-cut.aspx

another good article
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/13/1/AGS-new-cut-grading-of-princesses-a-first-experience.aspx

another:
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/17/1/Cutting-the-AGS-0-Princess--the-experience-with-the-lab.aspx

ASET is the best tool for princess cuts currently available in my opinion.
http://ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=23&ShowAdd=Y

http://ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp

 

[Ellen]

If you want to buy in a B&M, and there''s nothing wrong with that, stick to AGS graded stones. They grade for light performance, so you are assured a pretty stone without a lot of stress.

 

[gg21]

I disagree with the buying only AGS diamond on a princess. Yes they are the only ones who will grade it ideal, but at this point I think you will only stress yourself out more.
With Princess shape diamonds you cannot judge it solely off the depth and table percentage anyway, a large chunk is based off the crown and pavilion angle. You need to find two things.
First you need to find a sales person you can trust, one who will explain thing to you honestly, and not yell at you because you happen to know a little more than they do. And second you need to look at a bunch of Princess shapes, and with your eyes only, decide which one you like the best. After you have done that get as much info as possible on the diamond and post it here so we can review it and make sure you are getting a good deal and that you are not missing something.

GG

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/24/2007 6:29:00 PM
Author: gg21
I disagree with the buying only AGS diamond on a princess. Yes they are the only ones who will grade it ideal, but at this point I think you will only stress yourself out more.
With Princess shape diamonds you cannot judge it solely off the depth and table percentage anyway, a large chunk is based off the crown and pavilion angle. You need to find two things.
First you need to find a sales person you can trust, one who will explain thing to you honestly, and not yell at you because you happen to know a little more than they do. And second you need to look at a bunch of Princess shapes, and with your eyes only, decide which one you like the best. After you have done that get as much info as possible on the diamond and post it here so we can review it and make sure you are getting a good deal and that you are not missing something.

GG

They are the only ones who grade light performance, which wiill assure one of a good performing stone. Some may be better than others, but all will be better than most of what else is out there.

I have to disagree on that stressing him out more. I just don''t get the logic. AGS has made it easier, GIA makes it much harder, with rounding of numbers and no light performance grade.

So unless he finds a jeweler with an IS and ASET to get a true picture on a GIA stone, I still say AGS is the least stressful way to go. Just about every stone looks great in a B&M, it''s what it will look like once you take it home, across the board that matters. An AGS stone gives you that assurance, GIA doesn''t.

Now, having said all that, there''s nothing wrong with comparing a bunch of AGS0''s.

And none of this means there are no great GIA Princess out there, but again, without an IS and preferably an ASET, I wouldn''t buy one.


Just my .02.

 

[phiberoptik]

Wow, thank you for the great replies and links.

What stresses me out period is that without JUST looking at AGS diamonds its very hard to tell a great princess cut diamond without just trusting your eye. I was an engineering major in college (for a few years) so numbers mean logic to me and I believe numbers over my eye which makes me wish I could figure out the most ideal GIA diamonds as well.

Do PS''ers ever buy EGL or IGI diamonds? All I ever hear about is AGS and GIA on here especially because most of whiteflash.com diamonds fit these.

Keep em coming.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/24/2007 7:38:26 PM
Author: phiberoptik
Wow, thank you for the great replies and links.

What stresses me out period is that without JUST looking at AGS diamonds its very hard to tell a great princess cut diamond without just trusting your eye. I was an engineering major in college (for a few years) so numbers mean logic to me and I believe numbers over my eye which makes me wish I could figure out the most ideal GIA diamonds as well.

Do PS'ers ever buy EGL or IGI diamonds? All I ever hear about is AGS and GIA on here especially because most of whiteflash.com diamonds fit these.

Keep em coming.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, I may be misundersatanding...The reason you hear about GIA and AGS the most, is because they are the most respected of the major labs.

Many people have had good luck with EGL USA, and HRD (from Europe, some experts say the equivalent of GIA). I would stick with one of these, unless you buy from someone who will let you take it to an independant appraiser and return it for a full refund if it doesn't check out.

 

[phiberoptik]

Yes that is what I mean. I very rarely see anyone talking about any other gem labs outside of GIA and AGS. I see people saying EGL standards are not to par and Im curious if anyone sells IGI diamonds other than Sterling Inc jewelers (i.e. Jareds).

Its great to get on the internet and read and have forum convos but when it comes down to it, Id really like a reputable B&M to directly answer my questions and guide me in the right direction.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/25/2007 9:16:39 AM
Author: phiberoptik
Yes that is what I mean. I very rarely see anyone talking about any other gem labs outside of GIA and AGS. I see people saying EGL standards are not to par and Im curious if anyone sells IGI diamonds other than Sterling Inc jewelers (i.e. Jareds).

Its great to get on the internet and read and have forum convos but when it comes down to it, Id really like a reputable B&M to directly answer my questions and guide me in the right direction.

Wouldn''t we all.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out!

 

[belle]

many jewelry chain stores sell igi graded diamonds.

 

[dunndeal]

Hi Phiberoptik,

I loved reading your post! Your experience highlights the need of every jewelry retailer who wants to stay in the diamond business to properly train their staff. I give Kudos to clients like you that come in having done a lot of homework. I hope it''s O.K. with you but I''m going to share your experience with our staff at our next product knowledge meeting. There is always room for improvement!

As far as your request goes, the information you''ll find on Pricescope from some of the long time experts is among the very best you will receive anywhere. Some of the "internet vendors" here actually have brick and mortar stores too, like Pearlman''s and Good Old Gold just to name a few. So if having a physical location is important those might be a good option for you.

Anyways Happy Hunting,

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/25/2007 9:59:56 AM
Author: dunndeal
Hi Phiberoptik,

I loved reading your post! Your experience highlights the need of every jewelry retailer who wants to stay in the diamond business to properly train their staff. I give Kudos to clients like you that come in having done a lot of homework. I hope it''s O.K. with you but I''m going to share your experience with our staff at our next product knowledge meeting. There is always room for improvement!

As far as your request goes, the information you''ll find on Pricescope from some of the long time experts is among the very best you will receive anywhere. Some of the ''internet vendors'' here actually have brick and mortar stores too, like Pearlman''s and Good Old Gold just to name a few. So if having a physical location is important those might be a good option for you.

Anyways Happy Hunting,

Good to hear!

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 7/24/2007 5:06:54 PM
Author:phiberoptik
Ok so I have a few posts on here and Ive read quite a bit throughout here and Ive tried to teach myself the above the basic knowledge about diamond shopping.

I stopped in a local place yesterday to see what they had to offer and I actually left rather stressed out.

I said I was a budget minded person and she started showing me designer stuff where the setting was less than $1000 away from my budget limit. Nice stuff exactly like I want mine to look like, but out of my price range.

We started talking diamonds and I said that I would like to see diamonds and know the %'s and angles and stuff since GIA does not do a cut certification on fancy cut diamonds (I am looking at princess cuts). She spent over 5 minutes virtually arguing with me about this. Pointing out symmetry and polish and such. I kept stressing I just wanted to make sure that they werent going to sell me a diamond and say its Excellent cut and GIA certified because I know GIA is not the one calling it Excellent and that I have seen different places claim different labels without following the same cut standards.

I mentioned that I would like to see idealscope images of diamonds if possible. She looked like I had just asked her to take her shirt off for me! She had no idea what i was talking about... insisted that I meant Gem scope, and proceeded to tell me I didnt know what I was talking about. I said an ideal scope shows a red/black/white image of the diamond showing where the light reflects and doesnt reflect. She then said that I was talking about a proportion scope and that it would not help me tell the cut quality of the diamond. AM I CONFUSED HERE??? Is MY info wrong? All I hear people talk about on here are idealscope images....

Im so flustered because I am very nervous to purchase online and I cannot find a place that sells both a setting I like and a diamond I like. If I buy a diamond, most B&M places are going to be pricks about setting it for me because its not THEIR diamond.

HELP. This is becoming a NON-fun occasion for me.

Thank you PS'rs

I've said this before and YES it is very frustrating for the consumer BUT please realize that:
Many independent jewelry store owners have never heard of pricescope and spend little time on-line.
Many do not know about cut tools that are mentioned often and sometimes only here on PS.
Many jewelers still do not have on-line capabilities and still hand write their receipts and appraisals (for real, no kidding!)
I know this for a fact.
If all this stuff about CUT is not important to the owner or manager than it won't be important for a salesperson in that store!
Education in the field is still not a huge priority for most larger retailers..beating yesterdays sales figures IS their priority.


www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[fleur-de-lis]

Date: 7/24/2007 5:37:41 PM
Author: phiberoptik
I think my biggest hurddle is talking about something I have only read about on the net. I probably lack confidence when I talk to them but its so hard to see a diamond in front of me at a 3/4 ct size and see a huge difference in one to the other.

Oh and this lady actually said ideal depth is 60-74% and Table should be as high as possible!!! ''Because a princess cut is all table''

Even I know thats a crock of crap.

I had her pull another lady over and that lady said table should be in the low to mid 70''s.


Can anyone give me a very good basis to compare depth and table. I have read or see Depth at 60-75% and table from 62-72% are what I need to aim for, but does a D=60% and T=72% make for a brilliant diamond?

This still confuses me.

Thanks everyone!! You are some active posters today. Im leaving work. When I get home I expect to see atleast 10 replies hahaha

Yes, the princess cut can be a difficult nut to crack. I''m new to posting here, and perhaps someone more qualified can correct me if I''m mistaken, but the following might help you decipher the information a bit.

Frm what I have read, princess cuts revolutionized a bit in early 2006 with the AGS lab revealing new standards to create an AGS-0 "Ideal" diamond, to reflect what the cutting community had shown to give the best light return. In a way, it''s good to look at the history of the round brilliant cut in comparison; about 40 years ago, a 60-60 RB diamond (60% depth, 60% table) was considered "best", but in the interceding years diamonds were re-analyzed with a more mathematical perspective considering trigonometry and maximization of light return. I believe the pioneer was a Japanese company, and the "ideal cut", "hearts and arrows", and other supercuts of today are derived from that tradition. The math turns out to be pretty easy for round cuts from a mathematical perspective, and that''s why pavillion angles and crown angles are the subject of inquiry here; for instance, many folks here will start to drool if they hear a 40.7 degree pavillion angle paired with a 35.5 crown in a RB.

(1) In a nutshell, the "new princess" improves its light performance by making it more like a RB-- the crown becomes deeper, which in turn makes the table smaller. Of course, by weight the diameter shrinks a bit, but generally the light return improves. I''m sure someone can pipe in the exact numbers, but it''s not uncommon in "new princesses" to see tables in the mid-60s and depths in the mid-70s.

(2) Though it sounds derogatory to use the term, "old princesses" are those cut and judged by the cut class charts that have been around a while. Also, there are some beautiful princesses cut by the older cut charts, but as many a person has said here, fancy cuts like princess need to by judged by the eye. A copy of the classic cut chart for princesses can be found here: http://www.gemappraisers.com/oldcutgraderules.asp . One of the old rule of thumbs was that a great princess was 65-65; one advantage to that is that if you find a great performing princess with a depth of only 65, you''ll get a "spready" stone that looks bigger than it is. Unfortunately, being a fancy cut, you can''t rely on just the numbers, because a number of 65-deep princesses underperform. Of course, there will be times when you see one with your eyes where the numbers might indicate the table is too big and the depth too shallow by AGS standards (such as some 65 depth/68 table), but that additional spread and optical illusion of a larger table makes the princess look big for its weight. (Up until 2006, those numbers would likely come cut-graded a 1A cut, for instance.) If you have the patience to look through the chaff, though, it''s definitely possible to find a stunning princess with a delightful play of light return that has more spread than an AGS-0.

That said, depth 60 to table 75 probably isn''t one of them.

Hope this helps,
fleur-de-lis