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visible difference between F & G colours?

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Toska

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I am tossing up between a F colour of G colour diamond.

If an ideal cut F coloured diamond is held next to a G colour diamond, is the colour visibly noticeable? I don''t know if its worth paying the extra money for a "clear" colour diamond. Does it sparkle more?

Does the fluorescence of a diamond stand out in natural lighting or only under UV lighting?

Does the polish and the symmetry affect the sparkle of the diamond much? Is the difference in sparkle between a very good symmetry and polish much different to excellent?

What is a good statistic to look for in girdle and cutlet? What is ideal angles for a diamond?

What would be good statisticss in a diamond that is around 1 carat in ideal/hearts&arrows cut that provides the greatest amount of sparkle for no more than $5000 USD ???
 

tomatoe

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have u read through the pricescope tutorial? u should if u havent cos it answers most of the questions u have.

from reading through the forums, u will come to discover that most of the experts here will advise u to get the g colour and save ur money. alot of the others have posted that blue fluorescence is a very good thing to make a diamond appear whiter when it is G or I colour. again it saves u money as compared to buying d-f colour.

the diamond’s culet should be pointed (no culet), very small, small or medium because these are not visible to the naked eye. Girdle thickness should ideally be between thin, medium and slightly thick.

from one newbie to another, hope it helps
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valeria101

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On 11/5/2003 3:44:05 AM Toska wrote:
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1) If an ideal cut F colored diamond is held next to a G color diamond, is the color visibly noticeable?
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NO, adjacent grades are not 'visibly' different. If you wander how graders do distinguish them, the answer is not face-up, not in setting, not under normal viewing conditions.


2) I don't know if its worth paying the extra money for a 'clear' color diamond. Does it sparkle more?
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Both F and G are white grades, and for both the infinitesimal amount of color neither does show nor affects sparkle (you need a brown diamond to see that!)


3)Does the fluorescence of a diamond stand out in natural lighting or only under UV lighting?
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Strong fluorescence does show in natural light or any other lighting conditions with a fluorescent component (such as some office lighting). Anything weaker than medium is not visible in any conditions but under UV light. Medium should be at most discrete in normal lighting (most say they cannot see it, some do, I guess lighting conditionsand individual senzitivity a key to this point) and show nicely under fluorescent 'dark light'. A recent thread contained a nice photo of a stone with strong fluorescence under dark light (posted by Diamondsbylauren)... GIA contends that some degree of fluorescence enhances color appearance (see the link I have posted today on that new thread).


4) Does the polish and the symmetry affect the sparkle of the diamond much? Is the difference in sparkle between a very good symmetry and polish much different to excellent?
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NO and NO. If the polish is so bad that the skin of the stone becomes opaque and hinders light, it just means that the respective diamond is still in the factory awaiting polishing! 'Fair' symmetry would rise eyebrows anyway, otherwise it does not have a direct, unambiguous relationship with light return.


5) What is a good statistic to look for in girdle and cutlet? What is ideal angles for a diamond?
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NO WAY: look the 'advanced tutorial' on the first page here, get the facts on the debate and judge for yourself... I guess. A recent post even contained a chart of the correspondence between those critical angles and light return, there are a couple more such things here and there on the web but they look tremendously alike.


6) What would be good statistics in a diamond that is around 1 carat in ideal/hearts&arrows cut that provides the greatest amount of sparkle for no more than $5000 USD ???
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The H&A labeling already implies such stats (according to #5). The Holy Grail of diamond cutting and branding is to find an undisputable relationship between geometric parameters and appearance. It seems that there has been tremendous advance in this area (again, see above). The fool proof method remains to test the light return of the stone.


Hope you've heard enough from me already! If answers have not flooded your inbox yet, is due to the high frequency of these Qs here... answers are quite consistent, so older posts should save you time! Even faster way? Post three choices on a single thread and see what people have to say about them.
 

pqcollectibles

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Color is graded cutlet up/table down in the body of the diamond. I previewed a .766 ct, H and a .85 ct, J H&A. No color performance difference even when mock set against white gold and platinum. Both were beautiful and sparkly. Made for a tough choice. The only difference I saw was when the two were side by side, cutlet up/table down, on white paper. The J had a touch more body to it than the H. Not "eeewwww yuck, yellow", just body. And, nobody sees the body of any diamond when mounted. Everyone looks from the top!

Faint to medium Blue Flour is a great addition to any diamond. It adds the most marvelous blue sparks and flashes that cause a diamond to jump out and grab peoples' eye. "Blue diamonds" used to be all the rage before the Flour phobia set in. My sis had one of the most gorgeous diamonds I ever saw, back in the '70's. F color with medium blue flour. Boy did it sparkle and flash! Blue Flour also adds balance making I and J color diamonds appear whiter than their actual color rating.
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hoorray

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"G" color is generally considered to be a sweet spot for diamond color. Faces up completely white, but better value than higher colors. In fact part of the premium of the higher colors is due to their rarity, not to their looks.

check out http://www.gemappraisers.com/ for a do-it-yourself cut evaluator. It is a helpful tool, and shows the ranges for each parameter for the various cut quality.

Also, NiceIce posted a set of specs a while back that I found useful. These were a way to narrow the broad Ideal parameters to more "Super Ideal" range. They are:

Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 55 - 56%
Crown angle between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to medium, faceted or medium, faceted
Culet: GIA None or AGS Pointed
Polish: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal
Symmetry: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal

Hope this helps!
 

AGBF

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Somewhere there exists a chart which purports to be able to show what the human eye can discern in terms of color. I don't recall where I saw it, but I *do* recall that between certain grades and the next (I *believe* between G and H, for example) the human eye was (supposedly) able to see far more difference than between two other "adjacent" colors (for example D and E). Can anyone tell me where I saw this?
 

AGBF

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On 11/5/2003 10:47:30 AM I wrote:

Somewhere there exists a chart which purports to be able to show what the human eye can discern in terms of color. I don't recall where I saw it, but I *do* recall that between certain grades and the next (I *believe* between G and H, for example) the human eye was (supposedly) able to see far more difference than between two other "adjacent" colors (for example D and E). Can anyone tell me where I saw this?

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I did a Google search for this. One lead brought me to an old Diamond Talk thread in which I was a participant. In that thread Diamond Lover said it was Ice who had published the chart. Since Diamond Talk deleted all of Ice's postings, I cannot find it now. We, however, have Ice himself here :). Ice, was it you who posted that chart? Do you still have it?

Deb
 

aljdewey

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On 11/5/2003 3:44:05 AM Toska wrote:

If an ideal cut F coloured diamond is held next to a G colour diamond, is the colour visibly noticeable? Not only is it not *visibly* noticeable....it's indistinguishable to all but the most trained eyes. In fact, I'd even go H or I.....if they are ideal cuts, they will face up WHITE when set, and they might get you to the magic "carat" mark you want.



I don't know if its worth paying the extra money for a 'clear' colour diamond. Does it sparkle more? In my opinion, no, it's not worth it. A G stone represents a much better value for NO visual difference. And color does not impact "sparkle"....cut does.

Does the fluorescence of a diamond stand out in natural lighting or only under UV lighting? Unless it's extremely strong blue, it should only been noticeable in UV lighting or possibly direct sunlight. Many people *prefer* blue fluor in diamonds.

Does the polish and the symmetry affect the sparkle of the diamond much? Is the difference in sparkle between a very good symmetry and polish much different to excellent? I've heard that better pol/symm is a way to improve the performance of a diamond without the premium that increase in color/clarity brings. However, I'm not sure there'd be a huge diff between VG & EX if all other factors were equal. Maybe someone else could chime in on this one?

When I get a second, I'll do a bit of surfing around for a few stones in your range.

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canadiangrrl

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I viewed about six solitaires at Tiffany a few months ago. They were all in the one carat range, and ranged in colour from D to I.

I couldn't tell the difference between D-E-F. I could differentiate between a D and an I. But not between an H and an I.

I haven't read the post/study that AGBF's referring to, but I agree that the lower coloured stones are harder to differentiate between. The *jump* in my eyes happened at H.

Some people are more sensitive to colour than others. My sister, for example, cannot tell the difference between an I and a D.
 

MichelleCarmen

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Hi,

I have both a D and a G diamond of the same size and the diamonds have to be next to each other under certain indoor lighting to tell the difference (and even then the difference is so slight that I doubt anyone else could tell). An F and a G are SO close, that it would be silly to pay extra just to have your diamond graded as an F on paper!

Michelle
 

magna2

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Toska,

It is indistinguishable between a F and a G so spar yourself the $ difference and go with a G. How well a diamond sparkles have more to do with how well it is cut versus color.

You can find a few 1 ct H&A diamonds that are within your budget - I am assuming that the $5000 budget is just the diamond and not inclusive of the setting.

rodent.gif
 

fire&ice

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AGBF, I don't know if this is what you where refering to - but the chart that "charts" color has varying parameters along a spectrum type grid. For example DEF are extremenly tight then loosening a bit in the G/H range then a tad more I then it hits stride around K.

That said, I have mentioned my "starter" stone was an F. I think we either could have gone larger or saved some money in the G/H range. I see little to no difference between my I stone (med/strong bl.) & my F stone that has (I think) moderate bl. fl.

So, save yourself some money & go w/ a G/H stone. In this size stone you will see little if any difference. Good luck.
 

Kay

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On 11/5/2003 10:47:30 AM AGBF wrote:

Somewhere there exists a chart which purports to be able to show what the human eye can discern in terms of color. I don't recall where I saw it, but I *do* recall that between certain grades and the next (I *believe* between G and H, for example) the human eye was (supposedly) able to see far more difference than between two other 'adjacent' colors (for example D and E). Can anyone tell me where I saw this?
----------------


I have not seen such a chart online, but my appraiser told me that D & E are virtually indistinguishable even to a trained eye under face down grading conditions and are closer in color to each other than any other two adjacent colors. I was actually looking for an E rather than a D for that reason, but happened to find a D that I fell in love with the cut of (marquise -- harder to find well cut than RB) and the price was within my budget.
 

fire&ice

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Mara, I'd normally agree about the SI; but, if I recall correctly, Toska is from Aussie land. It might become costly to ship back & forth if the stone isn't eye clean upon inspection - unless, he is going w/ an australian firm. Also, I'm not sure how the duty/taxes work & if they are refundable.
 

canadiangrrl

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Those look like some terrific choices. Here are a few more:

www.superbcert.com

1.35 G I1 - $4630 USD

A really nice looking I1, and it's big, too.
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It also has MB flourescence, which some like and some don't - I like it, it seems to make the stone "pop" a little more.
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www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com

Signature Series Ideals

1.00 I VSI - $4690 USD

1.00 I VVS2 - $4893 USD

1.00 F SI1 - $4988 USD

1.09 G SI2 - $4522 USD - love the numbers on this one.
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1.13 H SI1 - $4562 USD - again, MB flourescence, which should help the stone to face up even whiter.
 

Toska

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Messages
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I really cannot stress the point how gratful I have been with all the feedback received from everybody.
twirl.gif
ach person has put in their 2 cents worth, to make me much more aware of what to purchase. I am currently hunting down some diamonds, around the G colour, as F might be a bit too much. I will do a few hours of hunting
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nd then let everybody know what I have in mind and get some opinions.

I have used the Holloway Cut Advisor to assess a few diamonds and it has been really helpful. Is the HCA the best way to find the most sparkly diamonds?
What would the difference be between a 0.5 & 1.5 on the HCA scale when it comes to sparkle?
wavey.gif


Regards
Jason
 

Toska

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I am considering the following diamonds, please provide feedback.
Which would provide the best sparkle with the least visible inclusions?
All comments, positive and negative welcome.
confused.gif


http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=6838725
http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=6861084
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=GIA-12616582# inclusions???

http://www.goodoldgold.com
1.055 G SI2 4765.563 4568.273 0 60 57 33.7 40.8 0.7-0.9 I 6.62-6.65*3.98

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_024ct_g_si1__h%26a.htm
Does not score as high as other cheaper diamonds I have seen on the HCA, is it worth it?
 

canadiangrrl

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Jason,

Take a deeeeeeep breath.
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It can be difficult to determine whether or not a stone will be eyeclean based on the certificate. It looks like you're considering a couple of really nice stones from three reputable vendors. Each of the vendors should have those stones in-house, which means they can pull them for you and visually inspect them. My advice would be to email or call each of the three vendors, and ask what you want to know about the stones. Let them know what you're looking for - what your priorities are in terms of cut, colour, clarity, etc. - what your parameters are in terms of price - what's important to you, and what's not (there are trade-offs, right?)

At that point, maybe one stone will speak to you more than the others - but at the very least, you should be able to narrow down the field somewhat, or find a vendor that you feel you'd like to work with.
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Good luck!
 

AGBF

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Where the heck is Ice? Is he white water rafting or mountain climbing or something? I at least want to *know* if it was a chart he posted that I remember!

Fire&ice, I do not know if the chart you mentioned is the one I meant or not. The one I once saw (and believe Ice posted) showed the jumps where the human eye could (at least supposedly) see color changes really well.

The chart purported to show that at certain, specific spots the human eye could see a change very easily. As I recall it, the difference between a D and E was barely seen, but there were areas-perhaps between a G and an H?-where supposedly the human eye could really notice a huge difference in the same amount of color change.

I can't tell you if this was a helpful or accurate instrument because I cannot even find it now!!! Someone reading this forum has to know this chart, whether or not he believes it is helpful!!!
 

magna2

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----------------
On 11/6/2003 6:57:49 AM Toska wrote:



http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=6838725
http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=6861084
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=GIA-12616582# inclusions???

http://www.goodoldgold.com
1.055 G SI2 4765.563 4568.273 0 60 57 33.7 40.8 0.7-0.9 I 6.62-6.65*3.98

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_024ct_g_si1__h%26a.htm ----------------


You have identified some really nice diamonds so the choosing is going to be really tough. So to firther reduce the number of choices, I would recommend that the second listed DCD diamond and the first listed GOG diamond be discounted. Although the two appears to be fabulous diamonds, you need to limit the numbers for consideration. The second DCD is not a true H&A nor do I believe the first GOG one to be so you can remove them from further consideration so that you are deciding amongst like items. This way you are only deciding between three diamonds.

This is of course a moot point if you have decide to work with one particular vendor after speaking with the three that you have identified above. Sometimes it jsut comes down to whom you feel more comfortable working with.

rodent.gif
 

canadiangrrl

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Jason, I wouldn't discount any of them until you've made contact with the vendors. No disrespect intended, Magna, and I don't want to get into the "is it a true H&A?" debate, but both of those stones you've indicated appear to be well cut and may indeed be great performers, whether they're considered "true" H&A or not.
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magna2

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On 11/6/2003 9:14:07 AM canadiangrrl wrote:

Jason, I wouldn't discount any of them until you've made contact with the vendors. No disrespect intended, Magna, and I don't want to get into the 'is it a true H&A?' debate, but both of those stones you've indicated appear to be well cut and may indeed be great performers, whether they're considered 'true' H&A or not.
1.gif
----------------



canadiangrrl,

You are absolutely right. I was just suggesting a way to reduce the number of diamonds that are up for consideration to make the decision simpler. I would not discount any of them at this point since they all appear to be fabulous diamonds and H&A decision is a personal taste decision and depends on how much value to put against it.

rodent.gif
 

hoorray

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Hi Toska,

These all look like they could be great diamonds. Magna and Canadiangirl are right. Now you should contact the vendors, and tell them what you are considering and looking for. Get them to eye-ball the inclusions, and see what they have to say as well as who you are comfortable dealing with. They may come up with other choices or be able to help you narrow it down better than we can sight unseen.
Good luck!
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Back to my subject: Ice thinks he first saw the chart about which I have been speaking on Marty Haske's website:

http://www.gis.net/~adamas/

Can anyone find it there?
 

aljdewey

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I don't care for either of the SI-2 stones....on both, the inclusion is smack in the middle of the table and they don't seem small.




Of them all, I think the WF diamond (1.10, G, SI1 for $5150) represents the best value and would be my first pick. My second pick would be the GOG 1.02, G, SI-1 stone.....I think this stone is nice, but you're paying the extra $400-500 and sacrificing almost .10 as a trade-off to getting the spectacular H&A symmetry. Of course, the WF stone may display that too....we don't know because there is no hearts image posted for it.




My $.02
 

adamasgem

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On 11/6/2003 10:24:36 AM AGBF wrote:

Back to my subject: Ice thinks he first saw the chart about which I have been speaking on Marty Haske's website:


http://www.gis.net/~adamas/


Can anyone find it there?


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See figure 8 on http://www.gis.net/~adamas/sas2000.html which addresses the 1942 MacAdam study on human color vision color discrimination ability around the reference white position on the CIE chromaticity diagram... The MacAdams study is still in current Color Science texts like "Color Science, Concepts and Methods,, Quantitative Data and Formulas" by Wyszecki and Stiles...

Marty
 

Daniela

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I just wanted to point out that I think that the 1.1 G SI-1 that aljdeway has suggested might not be one of Whiteflash's A Cut Above stones. Their ACA's are usually marked as such in the description title, and this one just says "ideal", whereas the I colour stone that was also suggested further up in the thread is indeed marked A Cut Above. That may explain the low price. Correct me if I'm wrong?
 

aljdewey

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On 11/6/2003 2:19:53 PM Daniela wrote:





I just wanted to point out that I think that the 1.1 G SI-1 that aljdeway has suggested might not be one of Whiteflash's A Cut Above stones........ That may explain the low price. Correct me if I'm wrong?
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You're not wrong at all......this is an unbranded, ideal cut stone, and that's likely why it's reasonably priced.



That doesn't mean it isn't as nice as branded stones, per se. H&A isn't a "brand"....the way ACA or SuperbCert or 8* are "brands". H&A suggests a level of symmetry that identifies the stone as "well-cut"....I guess the best way to put it is, "All H&A stones are well-cut, but not all well-cut stones are H&A".



For Toska's purposes, he's trying to get the nicest cut diamond in the 1 ct. range close to G/SI1. That can be done if he looks at well-cut unbranded stones (I found the prices inflated in the branded inventories I searched).



If two shirts are sewn from the same material to the same standards and specifications, but only one of them bears the "Ralph Lauren" logo on it, the non-logo shirt isn't of any less quality....it just doesn't bear a brand and therefore doesn't cost as much. The WF diamond I suggested is, I believe, that unbranded shirt. Same thing minus the logo and way less money.

 

Daniela

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I totally hear you about the whole branded/non-branded thing. If I were into the whole "brand" thing, I probably would never have even found my way to Pricescope. I guess I didn't realize that this particular stone was H&A since I couldn't find it anywhere in the description on Whiteflash's website. Are all of Whiteflash's stones that are called "Ideal", but not ACA, Hearts and Arrows stones? I'm a bit confused.
 

Daniela

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Aljdeway,

After thinking further about what you posted, I think I get what you're saying. Just because it's not H&A doesn't mean it's not a great stone. Right?
 
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