Trying to learn but need some help please

[jlacasci]

First off, thank all of you for the advice on places to go to begin learning about diamonds. I"ve spent the last couple of weeks
reading, learning and watching videos. Most of my time has been spent here, goodoldgold as well as other sites. With all of the info
I've read, I've narrowed my search down to a few choices. Before I ask for your opinions on the three stones in questions I've spent my time on James Allen, White Flash and Goodoldgold. I really only looked at their highest rated round diamonds in the 1.1 - 1.3 Ct. range.
I've tried to learn about the 4C's, HCA, ASET, Idealscopes, etc...

My assumptions are that I probably wouldn't be able to see much if any difference between these three with the naked eye, and most probably not once she's washed her hands a couple of times with the ring on I've looked at various videos put out by Goodoldgold of stones that were only different by a clarity grade or a color grade and "I" don't see much of a difference. The price of these stones are in my price range. So taking this into account, help please.

So, in order here's my choices - what I'm hoping for is that you fine folks will give me your opinions on these three stones.

1. 1.16 H VS2 H&A HCA 1.6 Light Return Ex. Fire Ex. Scint Ex. Spread Vg.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1349860.asp

2. 1.16 H VS2 H&A HCA 1.6 Light Return Ex. Fire Ex. Scint VG Spread Vg.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1344941.asp


3. 1.17 I VS2 H&A HCA 1.9 Light Retrun Ex. Fire VG Scint VG Spread Vg
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1344911.asp

Thanks All,
Joe

 

[Stone-cold11]

All the hearts image has defects which should disqualify them as a H&A.

This is the criteria of WF.

 

[Lorelei]

All the hearts image has defects which should disqualify them as a H&A.

This is the criteria of WF.

Hi Joe and welcome!

I have to agree with StoneCold, the cut precision of the first two diamonds isn't quite there, the third appears to be the best out of the three but the patterning of the hearts isn't quite as precise as it could be. Now, if you want well cut stones that show a reasonable hearts and arrows pattern then you could definitely pick one of these, if you want crisp and precise patterning then I would take a look at some more. There is nothing to suggest the diamonds you have selected won't be beautiful diamonds, it is just that the cut precision isn't quite up to the standards we look for when judging h&a, but it depends on what you want.

I don't know if you have come across this article written by an authority on h&a, Brian Gavin, but if you have time read it through as it shows what to look for when evaluating these diamonds.

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/hearts_and_arrows_diamonds_and_basics_diamond_cutting/

 

[jlacasci]

Thank you for your input. So, even though these are called "True Hearts" on the James Allen site, I agree that the arrows and hearts
don't look at clean/sharp/uniform as those rated WF on White Flash site. I'm still trying to learn so please forgive some of my questions or assumptions.

1. a WF rated diamond is a true H&A correct?
2. a James Allen True Hearts diamond may not be a H&A correct?
3. It looks to me as though "expert rated" diamonds on White Flash appear better as far as H&A go to the three
diamonds I'm looking at on James Allen - not really a question I guess.

Now the important questions/assumptions on my part.

I can't see much of a difference between a color of H, I and even J But of course the price difference is quite a bit.
Can I assume that a WF rated 1.2 VS1 J will usually look just as good to the eye as a WF rated 1.2 H once the ring
has been on for a day or two of washing hands etc... I guess my concern is "why pay a ton more for such a subtle color
grade if a. I can barley see the difference under perfect conditions and two, I can't imagine you'd see the difference under
normal wearing conditions... Is this all reasonably true?

Also, under these same normal daily wear conditions. Will I or most folks be able to tell the difference between a
1.2 H VS2 WF rated and a 1.2 H VS2 White Flash Expert rated? I don't mind spending the money on a H&A if it makes a difference. What is important to me is that the diamond looks fantastic to the naked eye and I'd rather not pay an extra 2,000 for the WF rated &
J to I or H if no one will be able to tell the difference unless they are looking at it under perfect conditions and under magnification. I originally only wanted to look at H&A as an assurance of getting a stone that would look great.

Thanks guys,
Joe

 

[TimMD]

SC is right on about the hearts of these stones. I think you can definitely find something similar in the price range you are looking if you really are interested in the hearts and arrows. Brian Gavin has several diamonds that will show great hearts and arrows (if that is what you are interested in) and in the same price range (they also do PS discount like James Allen). As far as H vs I, obviously the best idea is to go to a local jeweler and look at well cut stones (maybe a local Jared's and the peerless collection) to see what you think. Also, could also talk to the vendor about eye clean SI1's to save even a little more money. Here are a few from BGD. If you talk to Lesley, she can really help you pick the best stone for you and they have a great upgrade policy. There are several others that may fit what you are looking for, but here are just a few.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104047809039

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104045953020

An interesting stone would be one of their blue line stones. The theory is a stone in the H-J color range matched with medium-strong blue fluorescence can show very white (could also be cloudy/milky so always important to ask the vendor). I have been intrigued by this lately and changed my mind a bit in believing fluorescence is a "bad thing", in the right combination and right stone, it can be great, especially saving a few dollars and still getting a magnificent stone. Just something cool to think about, but I obviously defer to the experts. (you could talk to lesley about this and even see if they have hearts pictures). I just throw this in because this stone popped up when I searched and I have been been really considering one of these in a pendant in the near future.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=BLAGS-104047808009

I didn't include WF or GOG because I think you mentioned you already searched there but you can be pretty confident in there hearts and arrows patterning also, but if that is what you are looking for, I think those JA stones you picked are slightly off. Different companies have different standards to what they call their "H&A" stones, and some of their standards are more strict than others. I am still learning myself and definitely defer to all the experts here. Good luck with your searching.

 

[Lorelei]

Thank you for your input. So, even though these are called "True Hearts" on the James Allen site, I agree that the arrows and hearts
don't look at clean/sharp/uniform as those rated WF on White Flash site. I'm still trying to learn so please forgive some of my questions or assumptions.

1. a WF rated diamond is a true H&A correct? Their branded A Cut Above h&a should be ' true' h&.

2. a James Allen True Hearts diamond may not be a H&A correct?

Yes, in my opinion, some are but I have seen some that again in my opinion are not.

3. It looks to me as though "expert rated" diamonds on White Flash appear better as far as H&A go to the three
diamonds I'm looking at on James Allen - not really a question I guess. Need hearts images to determine this, sometimes an ES diamond was in fact a ' near miss' ACA and sometimes you can find hearts images are provided as this was part of the analysis when the stone was originally intended for the ACA brand, and didn't quite measure up for some reason. Sometimes because the patterning isn't quite up to their standards.

Now the important questions/assumptions on my part.

I can't see much of a difference between a color of H, I and even J But of course the price difference is quite a bit.
Can I assume that a WF rated 1.2 VS1 J will usually look just as good to the eye as a WF rated 1.2 H once the ring
has been on for a day or two of washing hands etc... I guess my concern is "why pay a ton more for such a subtle color
grade if a. I can barley see the difference under perfect conditions and two, I can't imagine you'd see the difference under
normal wearing conditions... Is this all reasonably true? Well a diamond graded a J colour and an H colour might or might not show differences depending on the cleanliness of the stone, lighting and individual colour perception....If YOU can't see the difference and find a J colour is plenty white enough then you could definitely consider a J colour for purchase.
Also, under these same normal daily wear conditions. Will I or most folks be able to tell the difference between a
1.2 H VS2 WF rated and a 1.2 H VS2 White Flash Expert rated? I don't mind spending the money on a H&A if it makes a difference. What is important to me is that the diamond looks fantastic to the naked eye and I'd rather not pay an extra 2,000 for the WF rated &
J to I or H if no one will be able to tell the difference unless they are looking at it under perfect conditions and under magnification. I originally only wanted to look at H&A as an assurance of getting a stone that would look great. It depends on the quality of the cut of the ES stone in question, but I am making an assumption here, both types of diamonds should be very well cut and both have great light return, but of course you will only see the arrows in some lighting and once the stone is set, you won't see the hearts. If knowing the precise patterning is there matters to you then go for the ACA brand, otherwise you could definitely consider an ES diamond. Your WF rep would be the best person to advise on personality and performance nuances of the diamonds you have in mind when the time comes.
Thanks guys,
Joe

 

[Stone-cold11]

No, all H&A will have to be judge on a case by case situation although WF is pretty consistent in their H&A grading.

Color, depends on your color sensitivity and preference.

Expert rated I guess you mean the Expert Selection? Again case by case, some are drop from the ACA because of minor imperfection in polish/symm or other problems that may not be visible to the untrained/unaided, some not so.

 

[jlacasci]

I forgot to mention what may be a very important point. All she wears is yellow gold, so I will be putting the stone a 18K yellow setting and not platinum nor white gold. Given this, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in all of my research that higher grade colors would be a waste of money on a yellow gold band. Is this true? I'm pretty sure I read not to bother going above a K on a yellow band... But being new to this I found that hard to swallow so I've been sticking to H and I.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Lorelei]

I forgot to mention what may be a very important point. All she wears is yellow gold, so I will be putting the stone a 18K yellow setting and not platinum nor white gold. Given this, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in all of my research that higher grade colors would be a waste of money on a yellow gold band. Is this true? I'm pretty sure I read not to bother going above a K on a yellow band... But being new to this I found that hard to swallow so I've been sticking to H and I.

Thanks,
Joe

It comes down to personal preference, we have some members here with even J colour stones set in WG and platinum and they look as white as can be. My opinion differs to the info you were given about not going above K colour with a yellow gold band, if the cut is good, colourless, near colourless and even tinted stones all look great set in yellow gold. But my advice would be to consider J colour or higher for your diamond as long as the stone is well cut and GIA or AGS graded, H or I colour can be a good middleground.

 

[Stone-cold11]

I have a P in the e-ring I gave to my fiancee.

 

[yssie]

I forgot to mention what may be a very important point. All she wears is yellow gold, so I will be putting the stone a 18K yellow setting and not platinum nor white gold. Given this, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in all of my research that higher grade colors would be a waste of money on a yellow gold band. Is this true? I'm pretty sure I read not to bother going above a K on a yellow band... But being new to this I found that hard to swallow so I've been sticking to H and I.

Thanks,
Joe

Will the setting have prongs - and will the prongs be yellow gold as well?

If so I think I agree with your jeweller from a strictly visual standpoint re. K being a good price-effective compromise: the tint in the stone is very little, and you will see negligible difference in light output colour(s), and since the diamond surface will reflect back the yellow of the yg prongs that are all the way around the stone the body colour is going to "look" slightly tinted anyway..

Then again, if price is not a primary consideration, there is something so decadent and luxurious about high-colour diamonds in rich yellow gold And I think the "body colour reflecting" is only true for multi-prong type settings - one poster Andelain has a D in a yellow gold channel/tension type setting that leaves the entirety of the sides exposed and in her pictures that thing looks white white white.

 

[yssie]

I have a P in the e-ring I gave to my fiancee.

Whoa!

When did this happen? Congratulations SC!!!!

Please do post a couple of hand shots, your design was *gorgeous* and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to see it on her hand

 

[Stone-cold11]

Was going to post the photos, but camera went bust. Have to wait a few more weeks, will update. :p

 

[yssie]

Was going to post the photos, but camera went bust. Have to wait a few more weeks, will update. :p

well I'll be waiting

 

[slg47]

Was going to post the photos, but camera went bust. Have to wait a few more weeks, will update. :p

well I'll be waiting

me too!


to the OP: you don't necessarily need H&A to get a beautiful sparkly diamond, but if you are shopping for a H&A diamond, you would want to ensure that it has a good hearts image because that is part of the premium you are paying for. If going with non H&A, use the HCA tool to find potential candidates and then request an idealscope image.

 

[jlacasci]

Let me start by saying a thanks to all of you for your help.
I'm glad I found the Brian Gavin sight, it's where I ended up purchasing my diamond from.

What I ended up purchasing is a 1.21 J VS2 Brian Gavin Signature (H&A).

At first I was going to stay with an H or I, but after looking closely at stones and learning more about color and what it looks like
when set and more importantly after speaking to the folks at Brian Gavin Diamonds I picked three stones I was interested in.
Lesley was fantastic to work with. What surprised me most though was that Lesley put me through to Brian himself as we discussed
the three stones in question in 'GREAT DETAIL' for over 20 minutes!

Here's the stone I selected:

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-1040399230061

I checked in with a local jeweler tonight during yet another snow storm up here in New England (the store was totally empty) and
the manager was more than willing to chat about diamonds even when I told him that I had just made a purchase. He seemed pretty knowledgeable and indicated that while they don't carry H&A diamonds they can get them. When I told him the specs of the diamond I purchased, mentioned Brian Gavin and it being one of his signature (H&A) stones etc... the manager was stunned at the price.

Of course I haven't received the ring yet, but I'm expecting it to be stunning. So far, I'm impressed with Brian Gavin and his company.

Thanks again folks,
Joe

 

[TimMD]

Joe, I am glad that you followed up on the Brian Gavin stones and even more glad that you found one to your liking. I am sure you will be THRILLED when you get the actual stone, as will your future fiancee. Good luck to you and anxious to see pictures/read follow up thread once you get it.

 

[slg47]

awesome! please post pictures when you get it looks like a beautiful diamond

 

[Lorelei]

Was going to post the photos, but camera went bust. Have to wait a few more weeks, will update. :p

StoneCold you stinker!!! Just kidding, many congrats on your engagement and we NEED to see this P!!

Many congrats to you too JL!!

 

[jlacasci]

Here's a couple of glamor shots sent to me of my ring from Brian Gavin:

 

[yssie]

It's beautiful jl!!

 

[slg47]

looks beautiful

 

[jlacasci]

What do you thing? Trying to learn but need some help pleas

Hi again guys, my girl, now fiance loves the ring. I think it is beautiful as well. Sorry this may be a bit long but I want your opinions on what happened tonight... First, prior to purchasing the ring I spent some time at a couple of jewelry stores at the mall, just one seemed to be familiar with H&A stones. It was a manager at Littman Jewelers. He knew I was looking at Brian Gavin and was still happy to chat with me about diamonds (they were not busy). When the diamond came in I took it to him and asked what he thought. He was very nice and thought the stone was absolutely stunning. He asked if I had the certification and recognized the AGS certification, he also saw my photos of the ASET, IDEALSCOPE and H&A and asked to see them. I asked him what he thought the stone was worth. He said he had just quoted a 1.38 VS1 J not H&A but ideal cut at around 13,000. He said that this stone in his store would sell for close to 15,000. I was shocked since I paid less than that from Brian Gavin. If I wanted an official appraisal, he'd have to send it out. I declined at this point.

Today, I took the ring to a local jewelry store in a strip mall a couple of miles form my home. My fiance has purchased a few things from them in the past. Here's where I need you folks that really know how to evaluate a diamond to help me feel better. We walk in and the owner is helping a couple. I overhear the conversation while we wait, they are looking at a stone (not sure what) but it was a 1.3 SI1 I, he tells them it's a beautiful stone and it sells for around 10,000. Leaving them to look at the stone he walks 10 feet away from them to me and my Fiance. He recognizes her and says hi. I ask him if he can provide an appraisal of my ring, and I provide him with the AGS certificate as well as the photos of the ASET, IDEALSCOPE and H&A images. I tell him it is a Brian Gavin Signature H&A stone and that is it. It may or may not be important to note that the other couple in the store are less than 10 feet away and can hear everything he is saying. He looks at the report briefly but doesn't say much. I offer him the photos and he isn't interested in them at all. He looks at the stone under a loop and says "Well, it's been recut from an older stone" and it's a J closer to a K in color. It was probably a 1.4 or so and has been re cut now that we have improved cutting so much in the past 10 years in order to sell it for more. He again comments on how far it is from white. I point out that it's an ideal cut, H&A. He points to the certificate and says something to the effect of. Well, it's an AGS lab, it's not a GIA. We rely on GIA and not these type of certificates, a lot of "other" stores use these type of lab reports. He basically said the AGS ratings of 0 0 0 didn't mean anything. I asked him if he was familiar with an AGS report and he says "Yes I think so" but almost in a way as of saying "No shit, of course I do" But when I pointed out that most of the info is the same on the GIA and AGS crown angle, pavilion etc... He then goes on and on about how reports from other places other than GIA don't mean as much, says again that it's a 'K" (I assume he probably couldn't tell if it was a 'J" even under a 10x loup in a yellow gold setting unless he read it was a 'J' on the report). My ring by the way is a 1.21 J VS2 H&A Brian Gavin signature select. He ask me what I paid for it and I wouldn't tell him as my fiance was right there. She was with me when the manager at Littman extimated 15,000 - I told him this and he says: well see if he'll even give you 9,000 for it. I was shocked and pissed at this guy. I don't expect my ring to appraise at 15,000 but he seemed to do his best to make the diamond less than what it was. He then asked me what I wanted it to appraise for???

Now, he did have a couple in the store looking at a 10,000 1.3 I SI1.
He didn't seem to know what he was looking at with the AGS report.
He didn't want to look at the photos of the ASET, IDEALSCOPE or H&A.

For those of you that really know about diamonds... was this a "fair" way to judge a diamond?
Do most jewelers know about AGS reports, wouldn't most want to see the IDEALSCOPE images etc...
Can you tell if a stone has been re cut and if so does it matter?
Can you tell easily if a stone is a J in a gold setting with a 10 loup?

I'm inclined to think the guy probably wasn't familiar with the report, perhaps not even with the IDEALSCOPE images (if that's even possible for a jewelery that owns his own business). I think he wanted to make the stone appear inferior to his inventory when I beleive he probably didn't have a stone of that cut quality in the store.

Thanks guys,
Joe

 

[z]

Though I can't answer most of your questions, your story exemplifies whey everyone suggest you take a ring to an independent appraiser who doesn't sell jewelry for an honest appraisal.

 

[Lula]

Most retail jewelers do not know about IS, ASET, etc., so it's not surprising that the second jeweler you visited didn't know (or didn't care) about those images. Many jewelers are more familiar with GIA than AGS. GIA grades a higher volume of stones than AGS, so GIA tends to be the "gold standard" lab for your typical bricks and mortar jeweler. Retail prices, online prices, and appraised value do not necessary match, or even come close to each other.

Many bricks and mortar jewelers tend to undervalue cut and overvalue clarity and color. But, to answer your question, judging a stone's color is more difficult once it's set.

The one thing that surprised me about your story is that the jeweler said he could tell your stone had been recut. I'd really like to know more about that statement and what led him to say that. When a stone is recut, is there "evidence" of the recut, i.e., could he see that different types of tools had cut the stone? Marks left on the facets?

 

[jlacasci]

Thanks for the comments thus far. As to being re-cut, I don't know if it was or not. Everything I've read about a diamond being re-cut indicates that this is fine especially if an older poorly cut diamond was re-cut from less than ideal to ideal (AGS) or GIA Excellent.
I'm of course a novice at all of this, but what I've read says that you may be able to tell if a round has been re-cut by looking at the girdle.

Here's what I read on how to tell:

Round brilliant cut diamonds that look out of round (similar to a car tire that has gone flat). While there are no perfectly round diamonds, the girdle diameters should be close. For instance, if a diamonds girdle diameter measured 6.15 X 6.10 mm it would appear to be round. However, a diamond with a girdle diameter that measured 5.80 X 6.20 mm would appear to be flat on one side, which is a good indicator that the diamond was possible chipped on the smaller side and was re-cut to eliminate a chip leaving a flat spot on one side of the stone.

My diamonds AGS says:

Report: AGS
Carat: 1.210
Color: J
Clarity: VS2
Measurements: 6.87×6.89×4.20
Lab Cut Grade: Ideal
Light Performance: Ideal
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Table %: 55.6
Depth %: 61.1
Crown %: 15.4
Crown Angle: 34.8
Star %: 55.0
Pav Angle: 40.7
Pavillion %: 42.8
Lower Girdle %: 76.0
Girdle Min-Max %: 1.0-3.4
Girdle: Thin to Medium Faceted
Culet: Pointed
Fluorescence: Negligible

Based on this and it being a H&A Signature Select from Brian Gavin, how could he possibly tell?
Also, using GIA's facetware and plugging in what I think are accurate numbers from my certificate
I come up with a final grade of EX.

Thanks,
Joe