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True or False?... things a local jeweler says

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quaeritur

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During the course of discussions w/my local jeweler (who isn''t thrilled I found my stone online), he said that

1. Poorly cut diamonds exhibit more fire
2. Arrows are harder to cut for than hearts

Any experts care to tell me if these are accurate statements?
confused.gif


Thanks in advance!
 

oldminer

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Those two "quotes" are priceless. How would one classify them? Was this salesperson misleading you on purpose, or were they simply uninformed? Either way, they are ones to add to the dumb things we have heard from disappointed sellers....




Come to think of it, such a list would make fun reading if someone compiled it.
 

rms

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In the same spirit, I have a 3rd question to add:




3. I had someone tell me just this weekend that you can't see the arrows of a diamond without a firescope. But I have seen many pics in "Show me the Ring" where you can see arrows and people even give compliments on them. Why would this person have said what he said?
 

quaeritur

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Actually, I've now heard the hearts thing from three separate sales associates at this store. And they seem genuinely convinced that what they say is true. They sell HOF stones, I was wondering if that's where they were getting this misinformation.

About the fire, it was their former GIA grader that told me that. My best guess is that he might be thinking of OECs -not that they are poorly cut- but that stones that are not modern ideal cuts might have more fire. That's just me guessing at his meaning though, and only because I've seen some OECs with spectacular fiery flashes. And because I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt...
 

denverappraiser

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This might explain why this individual is a former GIA Grader.
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A likely explaination is that the grader was talking about something else completely and what they think they said, and what you think you heard, are totaly different animals.

Neil
 

Jennifer5973

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Is it the intention of this post to imply that local jewelers, as a rule, are inferior or unable to provide quality stones/service, and that the online jewlers (specifically, those featured here) are always better?
confused.gif


This is a genuine question, not an attempt to be a wise guy (gal).
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verticalhorizon

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I would also love to see a book (or a section in the new diamond book) that contains a list of 'priceless' misinformed sales quotes!
 

Icicles

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This one always makes me laugh:

"the bigger the table, the bigger the spread. If you compare 2 1ct. diamonds, the one with a 65% table will appear much larger than one with a 57% table."
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quaeritur

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On 8/17/2004 3:00:01 PM Jennifer5973 wrote:

Is it the intention of this post to imply that local jewelers, as a rule, are inferior or unable to provide quality stones/service, and that the online jewlers (specifically, those featured here) are always better?
confused.gif


This is a genuine question, not an attempt to be a wise guy (gal).
saint.gif
----------------


I wouldn't go so far as to make those absolute generalizations. I started the thread because I sincerely wondered if there was any merit to what this jeweler (that I've otherwise found friendly and helpful, at least until I made my online purchase) was saying. Like I mentioned, they did seem genuinely convinced of the veracity of the statement.

However, I think that a vast minority of jewelry sales associates, even at some of the better, independently owned stores, are as well informed as they ought to be. I do think that the percentage is higher at independent B&Ms than mall stores, and again higher w/PS vendors than independent B&Ms, but I wouldn't say that any one contingent knows everything or nothing...

I can just see that if I, even after a ton of research, was made to doubt what I thought I knew by my local jeweler, because they sounded so knowledgeable, someone who didn't do their homework would be totally snowed. It's a shame, really, even when the intentions are good
nono.gif
.
 

quaeritur

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PS... the list of silly statements thing is a tangent to the original thread, and I don't think intended to disparage any one type of vendor. I used to work at an outdoor sports shop -second job to earn extra wedding $$- and we kept a whiteboard in the back with a list of stupidest customer questions. The all-time fave?

"Excuse me, does this compass work outside of the United States?"
 

MyBestFriend

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This one always makes me laugh:

"the bigger the table, the bigger the spread. If you compare 2 1ct. diamonds, the one with a 65% table will appear much larger than one with a 57% table."



Is this completely untrue? Just asking because I have heard several people & jewelers say that the larger the table, (less depth), the larger a stone will appear.... No truth to this?
 

WinkHPD

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None at all. A poorly cut stone of 6.5mm may not even look as large as a well cut 6.5mm stone because it will have less light return. It certainly will not look as large as a very well cut to H&A cut 6.5mm stone and will look even smaller against a 6.5mm EightStar which really has edge to edge brilliance.

Many poorly cut stones with large tables may be spread stones (larger diameter) that look larger than a well cut stone of the same weight, as a well cut stone of the same depth will have a smaller diameter, but they will not look larger than a stone of the same diameter.

Wink
 

denverappraiser

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Jennifer5973,

I see excellent information being given out by jewelry store staffers on a daily basis. I definately do not consider them, by definition, to be inferior and they are often the best in the business. Since there are so many stores with so many people involved, there are always examples of silly things that get said or done. Sometimes it's foolishness and sometimes they're simple mistakes or misunderstandings. This sort of discussion shouldn't be taken as a disparagement of jewelers in general or even necessarily of the specific jeweler mentioned.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 

Jennifer5973

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I appreciate the clarification of my understanding.
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I guess my sensitivities were rustled because I happen to have a local jeweler who is excellent and knows his stuff. Just the other day he was trying to convince another customer (who clearly didn't know what he was doing) to go with the best cut stone vs the one that was just "big." When I recently asked him to exlain to me the difference between "Excellent Symmetry" and "Very Good symmetry" his explanation echoed what I dug up here on Pscope from the most esteemed appraisers. I guess I am lucky.
1.gif


However, if I did't have this jeweler, I'd go to one of the Pscope vendors in a second; their reputations are impressive and the examples of their work inspire great confidence. I also note that their pricing tends to be neck-and-neck with what my jeweler offers on the same quality items--including cut quality when taken into account. I frequently post to new members that they should seriously look into the regular vendors on the forum becasue there are some great people here. I can only comment directly on one particular vendor because I have exerience only with this vendor, but I strongly advocate the consideration of the better online vendors as a rule.

I will also acknowledge that the chain stores I've been in typically hire less than well-educated people to sell the merchandise and tend to be hot beds of misinformation and screwball statements about diamonds.
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nicknomo

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----------------
On 8/17/2004 1:16:23 PM rms wrote:


In the same spirit, I have a 3rd question to add:


3. I had someone tell me just this weekend that you can't see the arrows of a diamond without a firescope. But I have seen many pics in 'Show me the Ring' where you can see arrows and people even give compliments on them. Why would this person have said what he said?
----------------


This is generally true. You cannot see the arrows under many circumstances with the naked eye. For some reason cameras have much more success capturing the pattern. Lighting has a lot to do with it. They can be seen with the naked eye under the right conditions, however they are quites small and tend to blend in well in msot circumstances.

I think they key is to have the diamond's table perpendicular with the light from the light source....
 

WinkHPD

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Another way to see them is to make a tube by cupping your fingers and holding the stone at the bottom of the tube. Or take a toilet paper tube and do the same thing.

Wink

P.S. The firescope is actually a device used to show us where the stone is incapable of reflecting light back to the eye of the viewer (often mistakenly called light leakage, by me in the past amongst others, before I had the proper terminology beaten into me at the last EightStar conference by people who actually know what they are talking about.) To view the Hearts and Arrows, only a tube open at both ends is required. It is usually colored either red or blue to enhance the appearance of the pattern that is seen.
 

WinkHPD

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Also, just a comment on the local jeweler versus internet question.

Many of us "internet" vendors, myself and Rhino included, are B&M jewelers also. We got into the internet because we could and it has changed our lives to the positive. Many of our compatriots have not made that decision, but still give a great level of service to their clients.

There are good and bad people in every business, and many of the chain stores do their best to hire good people, but there is only so much that a person selling shoes, or whatever last month can learn in a short time. Given our human nature to want to know the answer and appear knowledgeable, I suspect that much misinformation that is given is the result of trying to learn too much too quickly, than an "honest" attempt to mislead.

I do not agree with the comment that a badly cut stone shows more fire, as EightStars show as much fire as I have ever seen in any diamond, and they are incredibly well cut. As for which is harder to cut for, the hearts or the arrows, I have no idea. Perhaps someone could ask Richard von Sternberg or Paul Sleggers, or Brian the Cutter, I suspect they might. If we are really lucky, they might share with us the answer.

Wink
 

rms

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----------------
On 8/17/2004 5:16:32 PM nicknomo wrote:







----------------
On 8/17/2004 1:16:23 PM rms wrote:








In the same spirit, I have a 3rd question to add:






3. I had someone tell me just this weekend that you can't see the arrows of a diamond without a firescope. But I have seen many pics in 'Show me the Ring' where you can see arrows and people even give compliments on them. Why would this person have said what he said?
----------------


This is generally true. You cannot see the arrows under many circumstances with the naked eye. For some reason cameras have much more success capturing the pattern. Lighting has a lot to do with it. They can be seen with the naked eye under the right conditions, however they are quites small and tend to blend in well in msot circumstances.

I think they key is to have the diamond's table perpendicular with the light from the light source....

----------------

So if you cannot see the arrows just by taking a quick look, can someone simply look at a diamond and in all of 5 seconds be able to tell you if it is a H&A stone or not? That is what happened to me this weekend. This person said "Your diamond is DEFINITELY NOT an H&A!" Now, I will admit that I do not have all the stats on my stone (bought it before finding PS), and that I am 97.3672% certain that it isn't anyway (still trying to decide how to get a full report done on it so that I can talk shop with everyone here), and that this person is a certified Gemologist and has trained eyes compared to my untrained eyes, but...



I am just seeking to better understand such statements when they are made. I appreciate your inputs. Thanks.

 

Icicles

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----------------

This person said 'Your diamond is DEFINITELY NOT an H&A!' ----------------


You shoulda said, "Man, you need to get some glasses!"
 

quaeritur

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Rita-

was your stone mounted or unmounted? If it was mounted, there's no way this person could tell if there was a hearts pattern or not, or how good it might be. Unmounted, it takes quite a bit of work to get the angle perfect and catch a glimpse of the hearts without a special viewer.

For the arrows, if I look at my stone with only one eye I can make out the arrows more easily -the whole stereovision thing makes it more difficult to spot, which is why a camera (capturing the image from a single vantage point) often shows the arrows better than we can see them.

At least, that's been my experience trying to see arrows vs. photographing them. So I wouldn't put too much stock in someone eyeballing a set stone
wink2.gif
.
 

nicknomo

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----------------[/quote]

So if you cannot see the arrows just by taking a quick look, can someone simply look at a diamond and in all of 5 seconds be able to tell you if it is a H&A stone or not? That is what happened to me this weekend. This person said 'Your diamond is DEFINITELY NOT an H&A!' Now, I will admit that I do not have all the stats on my stone (bought it before finding PS), and that I am 97.3672% certain that it isn't anyway (still trying to decide how to get a full report done on it so that I can talk shop with everyone here), and that this person is a certified Gemologist and has trained eyes compared to my untrained eyes, but...


I am just seeking to better understand such statements when they are made. I appreciate your inputs. Thanks.

----------------[/quote]


I'm a little unsure of what you are asking, so forgive me if my answer goes astray. First let me say that even when you do see the H&A pattern with the naked eye, you can't really judge how good of an H&A it is. Unless it's an 8 ct H&A, the arrows are awfully small. Once again you can see the pattern, but for all you know the arrows could be bent and such.

As for how long it would take to see whether a stone is H&A without a scope, well it's hard to say. I've gotten pretty good at it, thanks to the countless number of attempted photos (see my avatar?).

I do think that it would probably be possible to spot a non H&A without a scope in a few seconds if they were good at what they are doing. If the cut was deep, fisheyed, it stands to reason that it's not H&A. That would be pretty easy to spot.

Of course, anyone who isn't using a scope might not deal that much with H&A stones. In which case they might not be qualified to even tell due to lack of experience.

But that's a big maybe. Like any profession, some jewelers are very very good at what they do.. while the rest are not. From my experiences GIA graders, as well as people who have "been in the business for 20 years" have said some pretty incorrect things. So you can't really base too much on the words of an unknown jeweler. Don't take their word until you know they have a good (and updated) understanding of things.

That's why I'm glad I found pricescope. It's a good resource, and although I'm not going to claim to be an expert now, I sure know more than I ever thought I would about diamonds.
 

rms

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Thanks for the feedback everybody. I think that I am just simply trying to understand better what experts and consumers alike can say and have be the truth when just looking briefly at a stone vs. having all the stats at hand, and in the spirit of the subject here a la quaeritur. What you are all saying I have done and seen some arrows in my RB...cupped my hands around it, looked in bright vs. dim lighting, at different angles, etc. My stone is mounted in a simple tiffany type setting, but I am buying a new bridal set soon, and I am going to try and get a full report done BEFORE it is set into the new setting. Even though I don't fully have the data as everyone here stresses is necessary to really make sure you don't get duped, I love my diamond, and the awesome guy who gave it to me...so it's all good in my mind. It's just fun to think about all our plans.



I have had serious conversations with some jewelers and quick chats with others. IMHO, I think oftentimes it is in the approach of the question and answer exchange as to whether or not the information seems credible. I walked into a B & M store when I first started shopping asking for some price quotes on sapphire bands, and within about 2 minutes, the woman treated me like a complete idiot because I didn't realize that the color of the sapphire really influenced the price. After further studying that topic by reading PS and other sources of info, I better understand the statement she made and realize that it was indeed accurate. But you can be sure of this...I will not be going back to buy anything from that person.

 

yowahking

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Think about this Rita, go into Red Lobster and ask the waitress how they make the dish you want. Just because the store sells jewelry does not mean that the person you ask will know answers. Sometimes they guess, or pretend. Sometimes they pass along bad information from someone else. Sometimes they mix things up in their head and spit it out wrong. I try to get the jewelers in our state to raise their knowledge and stop saying stupid things, but I do have a list of what gets said and when I put it in a book, every jeweler in the country will spend $10 for it and laugh for hours. Don't worry Leonid, that was not a promotion, just being a smartass.
Scott
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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I think hearts are harder to get.

But on the 1. Poorly cut diamonds exhibit more fire,
I am on record as saying that brilliance is the enemy of fire.

There seems to be plenty of people who prefer old mine cut diamonds because they show more fire.
 

oldminer

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Quote from Wink:

"I do not agree with the comment that a badly cut stone shows more fire, as EightStars show as much fire as I have ever seen in any diamond, and they are incredibly well cut. As for which is harder to cut for, the hearts or the arrows, I have no idea. Perhaps someone could ask Richard von Sternberg or Paul Sleggers, or Brian the Cutter, I suspect they might. If we are really lucky, they might share with us the answer."

Reply:

Eight Star says, and has some scientific evidence that fire is increased at the point when symmetry of faceting is near maximum. It indicates that slight variation away from "perfection" of symmetry knocks fire down quite a bit. That is why their diamonds have more fire and they use this as a feature of selling them...fire and perfection///
 
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