To consumers who need help in evaluating diamonds

[oldminer]

Virtually all the participants on Pricescope want to assist those who request assistance. You will get a world of knowledge from many knowledgeable folks here who can guide you in the complexities of selecting diamonds that would be "best" for you from the thousands listed for sale. You can pre-screen those stones with tools you'll find on Pricescope and also fine tune the "value" in comparison to similar diamonds listed in the Pricescope diamond search feature. That "value" comparison search is of great importance for not only consumers, but for retailers and appraisers. Pricescope is one of the very few open zones of real price information for all of us to make comparisons that are competitive and have no bias. Rarely do I make comments on relative quality of diamonds listed by consumers for comparison. Plenty of others often reply anyway, but what is "best" for an individual is often not what these advisers may be suggesting. What is really the "best" for you may not be what they would choose. It might be, but it might not, too. WHat we descrtibe as the "best" cut is sort of a majority opinion and based on some degree of science, but what suits any individual consumer "best" may vary from these parameters. There are many non-ideal cut diamonds being worn by people who find them exactly right and are totally happy with them. You can be guided by people to help you find the right direction, but in the end you need to look at the larger picture before deciding what to do.

What none of us can do is look at the diamond in person that you are considering. You are forced to make some assumptions whether buying on line or in a Brick and Mortar store. You need to assume the diamond you are selecting is the right stone for the report provided with it. You must assume the seller is being honest about the condition of the diamond in that nothing has ocurred since the report was created to alter any aspect of the stone's measurements or clarity. You likely will not compare the actual diamond, in person, with several other diamonds of totally equal color, clarity, weight, etc, so you must assume that this particular diamond performs as well as the tools you used led you to expect. When you are a relative novice to diamonds, these assumptions are rather complex, blinding and not easy for others to assist you with at a distance or on line. It isn't much better at a jewelers counter in a store. You are under a bit of pressure to close a deal and that makes things challenging.

The reason I am posting this is to assure consumers that they can go a very long way here to making a well informed set of choices, but they ought to understand that some assumptions are being made at the point of actual stone selection which might have some effect on how they would make their personal best choice. It is great to have a high degree of confidence in your ability to research diamonds, but it also good advice to get any potentially problematic assumptions cleared up before you become convinced you have made your final selection.

 

[Rockdiamond]

What a great post David!!

In fact yesterday I was about to write something very similar.
Take SI diamonds.
Are most SI graded stones eye clean?
Let's stipulate, for the purposes of discussion, that 50% of all SI1 diamonds are eye clean- and that in emerald cuts the number of eye clean ones drops to 30%.
Is it the best advice to tell someone: "If you're shopping for an Emerald Cut, stay at VS2 or higher."
In this example, we're spending someone else's money (possibly) needlessly.
The reason: Do averages matter to a given consumer? If they can buy an SI diamond from a seller with a money back guarantee, who can examine the stone, and confirm it's eye clean- and the consumer themselves have no "mind clean" issue, are we helping or hurting?

We can make the same case for certain parameters of cut.
"Look for a table below 63% in an emerald cut"
IS that good advice?
Well, if one knows exactly what they love in table size, and the effects? Then sure, it's great advice.
But what if the consumer has no idea what they like (yet)
What if they look, and prefer a stone with a larger table, and larger face up size- that we could arguably say is "less well cut".
Are we helping them by dismissing the chosen larger tabled stone? Or might we needlessly place doubt in what should be a very happy and stress free purchase.

Without a doubt, the use of this forum to "de-mistify" diamonds for consumers, and "debunk" harmful myths is great- and a boon to consumers.
But there are definitely times well meaning advice does just the opposite.

 

[Lula]

This thread reeks of an agenda. Not sure whose yet, but still...

 

[MissStepcut]

This thread reeks of an agenda. Not sure whose yet, but still...

Really? Sounds to me like they're just some sensible caveats.

 

[Lula]

This thread reeks of an agenda. Not sure whose yet, but still...

Really? Sounds to me like they're just some sensible caveats.

Yeah, that's exactly what they'd like you to think. But ask yourself -- as we all should -- what those who make these sorts of statements have to gain or lose by the assertions -- or excuse me, "advice" -- given in this thread. Oldminer developed a controversial cut-grading system (the link to which was visible in his post this morning -- now gone). Rockdiamond is a vendor who sells diamonds.

Let me just say, I am currently "vendorless." I don't currently own any diamonds purchased from any of the commonly recommended PS vendors. I have no dog in this hunt. But I have learned a lot on this site from experienced prosumers. I don't always agree with their advice, but most regular posters on PS do a fine job of "policing" each other. I resent it when vendors use their positions as "experts" to attempt to influence the advice given here.

 

[MissStepcut]

This thread reeks of an agenda. Not sure whose yet, but still...

Really? Sounds to me like they're just some sensible caveats.

Yeah, that's exactly what they'd like you to think. But ask yourself -- as we all should -- what those who make these sorts of statements have to gain or lose by the assertions -- or excuse me, "advice" -- given in this thread. Oldminer developed a controversial cut-grading system (the link to which was visible in his post this morning -- now gone). Rockdiamond is a vendor who sells diamonds.

Let me just say, I am currently "vendorless." I don't currently own any diamonds purchased from any of the commonly recommended PS vendors. I have no dog in this hunt. But I have learned a lot on this site from experienced prosumers. I don't always agree with their advice, but most regular posters on PS do a fine job of "policing" each other. I resent it when vendors use their positions as "experts" to attempt to influence the advice given here.

Don't diamond sellers benefit more from us encouraging people to "overbuy" on color, clarity and cut than the reverse though?

 

[marchesa6989]

mmm i don't know if i see the agenda here. unless its one of those reverse reverse psychology things (the "you know that i know that you know that i know that..." haha)

but i agree with the sentiment above. as a newer member, but one who spent alot of time both researching online and in person, i give advice based on what i think is the best value without compromising on quality from my experience. others on here want to purchase the most perfect diamond they can afford even if in a smaller size, or may have been diamond collecting for much longer and have a certain "look" they are going for (small tables, particular angles, more fire, more white light, crushed ice look) despite marginally different stones still performing excellently and being beautiful. to each his own, but i think when giving advice it is important to explain where you are coming from especially to new members.

a lot of the time we are advising men who are looking to buy something to surprise, impress and dazzle their girlfriends with. no assumptions can be made about what the intended recipient wants, but i think its safe to say the majority of people want a BIG, sparkly, eye clean, white diamond. ask 99% of the population about diamond table, girdle, culet and they'll be like "say wha?!". so to get nit picky and advise the men to go for something that may not be appreciable by their partner is, IMHO, doing a disservice.

clarity and brevity, despite having to repeat yourself a thousand times by giving the same advice to different people, is important. otherwise if everyone says a different thing it can be confusing, overwhelming and downright scary. i appreciate the posts and they make sense to me that's my $0.02!

 

[Lula]

This thread reeks of an agenda. Not sure whose yet, but still...

Really? Sounds to me like they're just some sensible caveats.

Yeah, that's exactly what they'd like you to think. But ask yourself -- as we all should -- what those who make these sorts of statements have to gain or lose by the assertions -- or excuse me, "advice" -- given in this thread. Oldminer developed a controversial cut-grading system (the link to which was visible in his post this morning -- now gone). Rockdiamond is a vendor who sells diamonds.

Let me just say, I am currently "vendorless." I don't currently own any diamonds purchased from any of the commonly recommended PS vendors. I have no dog in this hunt. But I have learned a lot on this site from experienced prosumers. I don't always agree with their advice, but most regular posters on PS do a fine job of "policing" each other. I resent it when vendors use their positions as "experts" to attempt to influence the advice given here.

Don't diamond sellers benefit more from us encouraging people to "overbuy" on color, clarity and cut than the reverse though?

Yes. That is correct. The profit on high-color, high-clarity diamonds is higher. But sellers don't benefit when we tell buyers not to compromise on cut. There is a lot of dreck out there. Way more poorly-cut dreck than well-cut stones. Especially in local small jewelers who simply can't afford to stock well-cut diamonds. If the only basis of comparison I have, to use RD's example of emerald cuts, is two local jewelers, both of whom carry the more commonly found emerald cuts with large tables, thick girdles, and low crown heights, what kind of a biased sample is that to pick from? How do you even know if your eyes truly "prefer" large tables if you've never seen an emerald-cut diamond with a smaller table?

 

[Rockdiamond]

That seems pretty harsh Lula
I've been very vocal about my disagreement with any cut grade charts- but at the same time, I have also been vocal I my respect for David Atlas- and the effort he's put into them- and the motivation behind them.
Basically, I think both he and I share a passion for transparency in the diamond business- but we have very different ideas about how to go about achieving the goals of promoting a more open manner of advertising diamonds, and assisting consumers in having a better understanding of the business.

Agenda=motivation.
If one is not motivated, nothing will happen, right?
If experts in the field- who won't always agree- are motivated to assist consumers, it's a win win.
If the prime motivation of the advice is to sell something, that comes across.

Just about every prosumer on this site has the goal of assisting consumers- we all want to help.
If someone was taught SI1 is "bad" in an emerald cut, they feel they are doing the right thing by repeating that advice.
this creates a slightly sticky situation.
No one likes to be corrected- or let's say most people don't.
So, what's more important, the advice giver's feelings, or the OP who wants a question answered?

 

[shortee78]

mmm i don't know if i see the agenda here. unless its one of those reverse reverse psychology things (the "you know that i know that you know that i know that..." haha)

but i agree with the sentiment above. as a newer member, but one who spent alot of time both researching online and in person, i give advice based on what i think is the best value without compromising on quality from my experience. others on here want to purchase the most perfect diamond they can afford even if in a smaller size, or may have been diamond collecting for much longer and have a certain "look" they are going for (small tables, particular angles, more fire, more white light, crushed ice look) despite marginally different stones still performing excellently and being beautiful. to each his own, but i think when giving advice it is important to explain where you are coming from especially to new members.

a lot of the time we are advising men who are looking to buy something to surprise, impress and dazzle their girlfriends with. no assumptions can be made about what the intended recipient wants, but i think its safe to say the majority of people want a BIG, sparkly, eye clean, white diamond. ask 99% of the population about diamond table, girdle, culet and they'll be like "say wha?!". so to get nit picky and advise the men to go for something that may not be appreciable by their partner is, IMHO, doing a disservice.

clarity and brevity, despite having to repeat yourself a thousand times by giving the same advice to different people, is important. otherwise if everyone says a different thing it can be confusing, overwhelming and downright scary. i appreciate the posts and they make sense to me that's my $0.02!

I agree with you, Marchesa. As a side note, I do love your recommendations and solutions offered to newbies.

As the girl, I want BIG, sparkly, eye clean and mostly white I don't care that the diamond is not 100% perfect. I am detail-oriented, but I am a realist too. In normal situations, no one in my real life can see any flaws with their eyes, and no one will be rude enough to hold the diamond up close to their eyes 6-12 inches away and stare at it for a long time looking for flaws. Plus, I don't know about you, but I don't walk around all day with a microscope attached to my eyes.

 

[Lula]

That seems pretty harsh Lula
I've been very vocal about my disagreement with any cut grade charts- but at the same time, I have also been vocal I my respect for David Atlas- and the effort he's put into them- and the motivation behind them.
Basically, I think both he and I share a passion for transparency in the diamond business- but we have very different ideas about how to go about achieving the goals of promoting a more open manner of advertising diamonds, and assisting consumers in having a better understanding of the business.

Agenda=motivation.
If one is not motivated, nothing will happen, right?
If experts in the field- who won't always agree- are motivated to assist consumers, it's a win win.
If the prime motivation of the advice is to sell something, that comes across.

Just about every prosumer on this site has the goal of assisting consumers- we all want to help.
If someone was taught SI1 is "bad" in an emerald cut, they feel they are doing the right thing by repeating that advice.
this creates a slightly sticky situation.
No one likes to be corrected- or let's say most people don't.
So, what's more important, the advice giver's feelings, or the OP who wants a question answered?

Yes, I admit, I am being harsh. And one reason I'm being harsh is because I know in the past there would have been four or five vendors posting on this thread, objecting to what both of you have said. These days vendors posting on PS are few and far between, and the dialogue among the remaining vendors is not always fair and unbalanced, shall we say.

You twist my words, though, when you claim that I am advocating for saving a prosumer's feelings over serving the best interests of an OP. That is not what I am advocating at all, and it is why I expressly chose the word "policed" in my above post. Do I see misinformation posted here -- or myths as you called it -- yes, all the time. Most of the time, other prosumers step in and offer correct information. Some of us are more kind and diplomatic than others when correcting misinformation or challenging other posters.

If vendors are up in arms about misinformation, then write an article. Put some data and photos and anecdotes -- whatever -- behind your assertions and submit it for publication in the Education section.

As serendipity, kismet or luck would have it, I was just reading this article this morning: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/performance-and-p3-facets-discussion-about-step-cut-diamonds

 

[Rockdiamond]

This thread reeks of an agenda. Not sure whose yet, but still...

Really? Sounds to me like they're just some sensible caveats.

Yeah, that's exactly what they'd like you to think. But ask yourself -- as we all should -- what those who make these sorts of statements have to gain or lose by the assertions -- or excuse me, "advice" -- given in this thread. Oldminer developed a controversial cut-grading system (the link to which was visible in his post this morning -- now gone). Rockdiamond is a vendor who sells diamonds.

Let me just say, I am currently "vendorless." I don't currently own any diamonds purchased from any of the commonly recommended PS vendors. I have no dog in this hunt. But I have learned a lot on this site from experienced prosumers. I don't always agree with their advice, but most regular posters on PS do a fine job of "policing" each other. I resent it when vendors use their positions as "experts" to attempt to influence the advice given here.

Don't diamond sellers benefit more from us encouraging people to "overbuy" on color, clarity and cut than the reverse though?

Yes. That is correct. The profit on high-color, high-clarity diamonds is higher. But sellers don't benefit when we tell buyers not to compromise on cut. There is a lot of dreck out there. Way more poorly-cut dreck than well-cut stones. Especially in local small jewelers who simply can't afford to stock well-cut diamonds. If the only basis of comparison I have, to use RD's example of emerald cuts, is two local jewelers, both of whom carry the more commonly found emerald cuts with large tables, thick girdles, and low crown heights, what kind of a biased sample is that to pick from? How do you even know if your eyes truly "prefer" large tables if you've never seen an emerald-cut diamond with a smaller table?

Lula, "sellers" is such a broad term. Personally, I feel no affinity whatsoever for the seeming majority of jewelry sellers that have ZERO interest in anything but separating the buyer from their cash- with little or no regard to ethics, or the truth.
But there also exist some very good, ethical sellers that may have different experience, and opinions.
Is every emerald cut with a 70% table badly cut?
My experience is no.

In terms of buyers seeing both larger and smaller tables- YES- that is a wonderful idea.

Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where a buyer can see both a larger spready Emerald Cut ( but one that's attractive and lively)- and one with a smaller table.
Would you think the best way to find out their true feelings is to first let them know- this is a well cut diamond and this is a badly cut diamond?

 

[oldminer]

There is no way I can make a living doing appraisals. We used to have an appraiser participant who liked to put fear into the mind of consumers and I would not like to do that in the way it once was done. I believe my advice has truth without creating anxiety.

I can give back to consumers for the many great years I had in the jewelry business by helping them understand what the limits are of what comes off as expert or knowledgeable advice. Sometimes, most times, the advice found here is solid and non-controversial, but there are elements of often repeated advice that have little or no factual basis, but reflect the commonly held and repeated catch words of the marketing gurus and are not really actual expertise.

The link to the automatic grader below my signature has nothing at all to do with what I was discussing in the beginning of the thread. That is a screening tool and not engineered to make a final choice. It is much like the HCA tool. What I created is based on real experience, but there certainly are many lovely diamonds which don't fit the automated grading developed by myself with the help of a few others in the 1990's and early 2000's.

What I see now are many consumers on-line limiting their choices to particular cut ranges of diamonds marketed as "the best". when little evidence of fact makes those particular diamonds the best for everyone or even the best in many other regards. These are diamonds one can trust to look excellent, but this is not a cure for finding the ONE diamond you like as your "best". I also was giving a warning to those who "assume" more than they should based on distant inspection. There is no substitute for a close-up, personal examination.

 

[yssie]

There is no way I can make a living doing appraisals. We used to have an appraiser participant who liked to put fear into the mind of consumers and I would not like to do that in the way it once was done. I believe my advice has truth without creating anxiety.

I can give back to consumers for the many great years I had in the jewelry business by helping them understand what the limits are of what comes off as expert or knowledgeable advice. Sometimes, most times, the advice found here is solid and non-controversial, but there are elements of often repeated advice that have little or no factual basis, but reflect the commonly held and repeated catch words of the marketing gurus and are not really actual expertise.

The link to the automatic grader below my signature has nothing at all to do with what I was discussing in the beginning of the thread. That is a screening tool and not engineered to make a final choice. It is much like the HCA tool. What I created is based on real experience, but there certainly are many lovely diamonds which don't fit the automated grading developed by myself with the help of a few others in the 1990's and early 2000's.

What I see now are many consumers on-line limiting their choices to particular cut ranges of diamonds marketed as "the best". when little evidence of fact makes those particular diamonds the best for everyone or even the best in many other regards. These are diamonds one can trust to look excellent, but this is not a cure for finding the ONE diamond you like as your "best". I also was giving a warning to those who "assume" more than they should based on distant inspection. There is no substitute for a close-up, personal examination.

This should be posted in bold at the top of every thread.

 

[Lula]

This thread reeks of an agenda. Not sure whose yet, but still...

Really? Sounds to me like they're just some sensible caveats.

Yeah, that's exactly what they'd like you to think. But ask yourself -- as we all should -- what those who make these sorts of statements have to gain or lose by the assertions -- or excuse me, "advice" -- given in this thread. Oldminer developed a controversial cut-grading system (the link to which was visible in his post this morning -- now gone). Rockdiamond is a vendor who sells diamonds.

Let me just say, I am currently "vendorless." I don't currently own any diamonds purchased from any of the commonly recommended PS vendors. I have no dog in this hunt. But I have learned a lot on this site from experienced prosumers. I don't always agree with their advice, but most regular posters on PS do a fine job of "policing" each other. I resent it when vendors use their positions as "experts" to attempt to influence the advice given here.

Don't diamond sellers benefit more from us encouraging people to "overbuy" on color, clarity and cut than the reverse though?

Yes. That is correct. The profit on high-color, high-clarity diamonds is higher. But sellers don't benefit when we tell buyers not to compromise on cut. There is a lot of dreck out there. Way more poorly-cut dreck than well-cut stones. Especially in local small jewelers who simply can't afford to stock well-cut diamonds. If the only basis of comparison I have, to use RD's example of emerald cuts, is two local jewelers, both of whom carry the more commonly found emerald cuts with large tables, thick girdles, and low crown heights, what kind of a biased sample is that to pick from? How do you even know if your eyes truly "prefer" large tables if you've never seen an emerald-cut diamond with a smaller table?

Lula, "sellers" is such a broad term. Personally, I feel no affinity whatsoever for the seeming majority of jewelry sellers that have ZERO interest in anything but separating the buyer from their cash- with little or no regard to ethics, or the truth.
But there also exist some very good, ethical sellers that may have different experience, and opinions.
Is every emerald cut with a 70% table badly cut?
My experience is no.

In terms of buyers seeing both larger and smaller tables- YES- that is a wonderful idea.

Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where a buyer can see both a larger spready Emerald Cut ( but one that's attractive and lively)- and one with a smaller table.
Would you think the best way to find out their true feelings is to first let them know- this is a well cut diamond and this is a badly cut diamond?

David, first I do want to give you a shout-out, because you do consistently warn posters here about buying diamonds that are graded by labs other than GIA or AGS. In no way do I want to make it sound like you do not advocate for the consumer and are only interested in selling diamonds. I can say the same about Dave Atlas.

I can also say that you and I have disagreed many, many times about cut quality. And I have agreed with you that well-cut diamonds come in many flavors. However, I continue to disagree with you that the average consumer is going to be able to pick a well-cut emerald cut (just to keep with the same example) without a bit of education and a lot of real-life comparisons. To answer your question, no, if a consumer is able to see two emerald-cut diamonds, in person, one with a large table and one with a smaller table, and all other variables (color, clarity, carat weight) equal, then the vendor should absolutely not use the words "badly cut." That is a value judgement. But my question to you is, should the vendor explain that the spready one has been cut to retain weight (if it has been)?

 

[Lula]

There is no way I can make a living doing appraisals. We used to have an appraiser participant who liked to put fear into the mind of consumers and I would not like to do that in the way it once was done. I believe my advice has truth without creating anxiety.

I can give back to consumers for the many great years I had in the jewelry business by helping them understand what the limits are of what comes off as expert or knowledgeable advice. Sometimes, most times, the advice found here is solid and non-controversial, but there are elements of often repeated advice that have little or no factual basis, but reflect the commonly held and repeated catch words of the marketing gurus and are not really actual expertise.

The link to the automatic grader below my signature has nothing at all to do with what I was discussing in the beginning of the thread. That is a screening tool and not engineered to make a final choice. It is much like the HCA tool. What I created is based on real experience, but there certainly are many lovely diamonds which don't fit the automated grading developed by myself with the help of a few others in the 1990's and early 2000's.

What I see now are many consumers on-line limiting their choices to particular cut ranges of diamonds marketed as "the best". when little evidence of fact makes those particular diamonds the best for everyone or even the best in many other regards. These are diamonds one can trust to look excellent, but this is not a cure for finding the ONE diamond you like as your "best". I also was giving a warning to those who "assume" more than they should based on distant inspection. There is no substitute for a close-up, personal examination.

This is repeated by prosumers every day here. In fact, the most common refrain is, "It's worth looking at in person. If you don't love it in person, send it back."

 

[oldminer]

A vendor is free to explain their feelings about any diamond they are offering for sale. The fact that one diamond fits higher in my cut grading or lower is not a 100% basis for a decision. I have advocated seeing diamonds side by side and deciding then which to buy based mostly on what the individual likes best. There are some things about diamonds that can be compared such as spread, depth, table size, etc. There are some that make for a preferred cut and some that don't. When I say preferred, I suppose I mean "better in my own opinion", but othres are free to disagree with me, and they often do. I can live with friendly disagreements so long as the other folks can live with me not agreeing with them all the time, too.

The tools we have often do help people select diamonds which they find to be right for them. Even a partial tool may be helpful until a better tool comes down the pike. We all look for better and better ways to assist consumers. Some of the finest aids are on the websites of Pricescope vendors.

 

[Rockdiamond]

That seems pretty harsh Lula
I've been very vocal about my disagreement with any cut grade charts- but at the same time, I have also been vocal I my respect for David Atlas- and the effort he's put into them- and the motivation behind them.
Basically, I think both he and I share a passion for transparency in the diamond business- but we have very different ideas about how to go about achieving the goals of promoting a more open manner of advertising diamonds, and assisting consumers in having a better understanding of the business.

Agenda=motivation.
If one is not motivated, nothing will happen, right?
If experts in the field- who won't always agree- are motivated to assist consumers, it's a win win.
If the prime motivation of the advice is to sell something, that comes across.

Just about every prosumer on this site has the goal of assisting consumers- we all want to help.
If someone was taught SI1 is "bad" in an emerald cut, they feel they are doing the right thing by repeating that advice.
this creates a slightly sticky situation.
No one likes to be corrected- or let's say most people don't.
So, what's more important, the advice giver's feelings, or the OP who wants a question answered?

Yes, I admit, I am being harsh. And one reason I'm being harsh is because I know in the past there would have been four or five vendors posting on this thread, objecting to what both of you have said. These days vendors posting on PS are few and far between, and the dialogue among the remaining vendors is not always fair and unbalanced, shall we say.

You twist my words, though, when you claim that I am advocating for saving a prosumer's feelings over serving the best interests of an OP. That is not what I am advocating at all, and it is why I expressly chose the word "policed" in my above post. Do I see misinformation posted here -- or myths as you called it -- yes, all the time. Most of the time, other prosumers step in and offer correct information. Some of us are more kind and diplomatic than others when correcting misinformation or challenging other posters.

If vendors are up in arms about misinformation, then write an article. Put some data and photos and anecdotes -- whatever -- behind your assertions and submit it for publication in the Education section.

As serendipity, kismet or luck would have it, I was just reading this article this morning: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/performance-and-p3-facets-discussion-about-step-cut-diamonds

Hi Lula,
It was never my intention to imply you were suggesting placing feelings over facts.
When it comes to fair and balanced discussions: I'd welcome open discussion of some of the more controversial aspects- things like larger tables, and overall performance for one. Or crushed ice. Or Radiant Cuts.

I'm here, ready to discuss- and respectfully explore different viewpoints.
From my perspective too, it has been unbalanced- although we may disagree about the manner in which it has been out of balance.

Karl's article seems very good- and informative if one wants to delve that deeply into the aspects he's explored.
Most consumers won't.
I've never found it necessary to get technical to that degree to be able to assess step cut diamonds - but I have a lot of respect for Karl for doing so.
My feeling is that there's so many possible variations of PA/CA/Table size- as well as corner size, pavilion facet arrangement, number of steps on the crown, etc- so many factors that making blanket statements based on table size may be misleading. To be more specific, it might prevent them from getting what they want. Or take enjoyment out of the purcahse- or add stress to it.


ETA- posting at the same time.
Thank you for the kind words- it means a LOT
Regarding diamonds cut to save weight- that being every single polished diamond that exists
Seriously- I think that assigning motivation too broadly is not going to get a balanced viewpoint out there.
I can spot diamonds cut where the motivation to save weight affects the performance ( appearance).
Sometimes its the right choice.
But there are many many cases of larger tables not associated with an unbalanced motivation by the cutter.

Furthermore, sellers don't know the motivation of cutters - in the vast majority of cases.
When I do discuss motivation with some very influential cutters, I'm constantly surprised at why certain decisions are made.
My specialty is evaluating polished diamonds- and that's totally different than evaluating rough diamonds and deciding how to cut them.


SO- to answer- if a seller knows a stone was cut to save weight- like a textbook case of a extra thick girdle, 2.00ct 7.6mm stone- YES- tell the client by all means.
But cases like that are WAY in the minority.

 

[Laila619]

I think we all need to make a more conscious effort to not push our preferences on to other newbie posters looking for advice. If you only buy VS stones, good for you, but not everyone wants to pay for something you can't see when you can get a perfectly good, eye clean SI stone. If you only like D-E-F-G stones, again good for you, but other options are perfectly fine too.

A shopper who isn't a seasoned PSer, based on "advice," might now think he has to pick an F color VS clarity stone because anything else is "yellow" or too included, when this obviously isn't the case.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think we all need to make a more conscious effort to not push our preferences on to other newbie posters looking for advice. If you only buy VS stones, good for you, but not everyone wants to pay for something you can't see when you can get a perfectly good, eye clean SI stone. If you only like D-E-F-G stones, again good for you, but other options are perfectly fine too.

A shopper who isn't a seasoned PSer, based on "advice," might now think he has to pick an F color VS clarity stone because anything else is "yellow" or too included, when this obviously isn't the case.

So much!!!

I've made a real effort- over many years- to advance the idea that a J is not "worse" than a D- it's different- and worth less. But not worse.
there are stones that are gray and dull- which might appeal to some- but not most. We could call such colors "undesirable" to most diamond shoppers.

Now, when it comes to cut quality there's a lot of the same theory at work.
There are undesirably cut diamonds, no doubt.
But there's also many diamonds that fall into the same category as a D versus a J.
Might be worth a bit less- but not accurately categorized as "worse"
Remember, some cutters that save weight pass along these savings to consumers.

 

[Lula]

That seems pretty harsh Lula
I've been very vocal about my disagreement with any cut grade charts- but at the same time, I have also been vocal I my respect for David Atlas- and the effort he's put into them- and the motivation behind them.
Basically, I think both he and I share a passion for transparency in the diamond business- but we have very different ideas about how to go about achieving the goals of promoting a more open manner of advertising diamonds, and assisting consumers in having a better understanding of the business.

Agenda=motivation.
If one is not motivated, nothing will happen, right?
If experts in the field- who won't always agree- are motivated to assist consumers, it's a win win.
If the prime motivation of the advice is to sell something, that comes across.

Just about every prosumer on this site has the goal of assisting consumers- we all want to help.
If someone was taught SI1 is "bad" in an emerald cut, they feel they are doing the right thing by repeating that advice.
this creates a slightly sticky situation.
No one likes to be corrected- or let's say most people don't.
So, what's more important, the advice giver's feelings, or the OP who wants a question answered?

Yes, I admit, I am being harsh. And one reason I'm being harsh is because I know in the past there would have been four or five vendors posting on this thread, objecting to what both of you have said. These days vendors posting on PS are few and far between, and the dialogue among the remaining vendors is not always fair and unbalanced, shall we say.

You twist my words, though, when you claim that I am advocating for saving a prosumer's feelings over serving the best interests of an OP. That is not what I am advocating at all, and it is why I expressly chose the word "policed" in my above post. Do I see misinformation posted here -- or myths as you called it -- yes, all the time. Most of the time, other prosumers step in and offer correct information. Some of us are more kind and diplomatic than others when correcting misinformation or challenging other posters.

If vendors are up in arms about misinformation, then write an article. Put some data and photos and anecdotes -- whatever -- behind your assertions and submit it for publication in the Education section.

As serendipity, kismet or luck would have it, I was just reading this article this morning: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/performance-and-p3-facets-discussion-about-step-cut-diamonds

Hi Lula,
It was never my intention to imply you were suggesting placing feelings over facts.
When it comes to fair and balanced discussions: I'd welcome open discussion of some of the more controversial aspects- things like larger tables, and overall performance for one. Or crushed ice. Or Radiant Cuts.

I'm here, ready to discuss- and respectfully explore different viewpoints.
From my perspective too, it has been unbalanced- although we may disagree about the manner in which it has been out of balance.

Karl's article seems very good- and informative if one wants to delve that deeply into the aspects he's explored.
Most consumers won't.
I've never found it necessary to get technical to that degree to be able to assess step cut diamonds - but I have a lot of respect for Karl for doing so.
My feeling is that there's so many possible variations of PA/CA/Table size- as well as corner size, pavilion facet arrangement, number of steps on the crown, etc- so many factors that making blanket statements based on table size may be misleading. To be more specific, it might prevent them from getting what they want. Or take enjoyment out of the purcahse- or add stress to it.


ETA- posting at the same time.
Thank you for the kind words- it means a LOT
Regarding diamonds cut to save weight- that being every single polished diamond that exists
Seriously- I think that assigning motivation too broadly is not going to get a balanced viewpoint out there.
I can spot diamonds cut where the motivation to save weight affects the performance ( appearance).
Sometimes its the right choice.
But there are many many cases of larger tables not associated with an unbalanced motivation by the cutter.

Furthermore, sellers don't know the motivation of cutters - in the vast majority of cases.
When I do discuss motivation with some very influential cutters, I'm constantly surprised at why certain decisions are made.
My specialty is evaluating polished diamonds- and that's totally different than evaluating rough diamonds and deciding how to cut them.


SO- to answer- if a seller knows a stone was cut to save weight- like a textbook case of a extra thick girdle, 2.00ct 7.6mm stone- YES- tell the client by all means.
But cases like that are WAY in the minority.

Most jewelers would not share the part of your post I underlined with consumers. And I'm not saying that that's because they are withholding information from the consumer. What I am saying is most local jewelers I know do not know enough about cut quality to even have this discussion with a consumer. Which is sad, and which is why I continue to improve my knowledge about diamond cutting. You are right that most consumers won't care about the minutia of diamond cutting -- whether we area talking about fancy shapes or rounds. But it's been my experience that most sellers don't know much about diamond cutting either. So is it a case of both buying and selling blind? Yes, in many cases I think so. And if the information given here narrows a consumer's choices (especially a consumer who is buying online and is in a hurry and doesn't want to spend six months educating him or herself) and they pass up an unconventional beauty in favor of a "safe" PS-approved option, I think that is a better outcome, personally, than encouraging them to stroll down to their local jeweler (which may be a mall store) and pay too much for something that was pushed on them by an uneducated sales clerk on commission. I'm not saying this is something you would do, David. But you, as a diamond vendor in New York, are far more sophisticated and experienced than the average jeweler.

But back to my original suggestion -- if you and David Atlas and other vendors feel there is too much misinformation or bias on the part of the prosumers here, put your arguments into an educational piece. Because when I see threads like this from the trade, my first thought is always why are they interfering with the prosumer model that's worked so well here for so long. Personally, I believe most prosumers do a good job of quizzing newbies about which of the 4 c's are important to them. I am a cut-nut; I like the numbers. Most of the diamonds recommended here don't float my boat, and I've said so and gotten my bu** kicked here by other prosumers who are making exactly the argument you two are making. So that's why I questioned the motive of the original post.

 

[pregcurious]

I think we all need to make a more conscious effort to not push our preferences on to other newbie posters looking for advice. If you only buy VS stones, good for you, but not everyone wants to pay for something you can't see when you can get a perfectly good, eye clean SI stone. If you only like D-E-F-G stones, again good for you, but other options are perfectly fine too.

A shopper who isn't a seasoned PSer, based on "advice," might now think he has to pick an F color VS clarity stone because anything else is "yellow" or too included, when this obviously isn't the case.

I agree. If I were to buy a diamond right now, I would want a H, eye clean SI stone, with maximum brilliance and size. This is based on what I know I like by seeing, not by anyone else's standards. I might even take a small clear inclusion that I can cover with a prong.

At the same time, when people come here, they are asking for opinions. Just like in the real world, people can be judgmental and pushy. I think the good thing is that a newbie will at least get opinions from multiple people, and can easily walk away if they are offended.

 

[marchesa6989]

mmm i don't know if i see the agenda here. unless its one of those reverse reverse psychology things (the "you know that i know that you know that i know that..." haha)

but i agree with the sentiment above. as a newer member, but one who spent alot of time both researching online and in person, i give advice based on what i think is the best value without compromising on quality from my experience. others on here want to purchase the most perfect diamond they can afford even if in a smaller size, or may have been diamond collecting for much longer and have a certain "look" they are going for (small tables, particular angles, more fire, more white light, crushed ice look) despite marginally different stones still performing excellently and being beautiful. to each his own, but i think when giving advice it is important to explain where you are coming from especially to new members.

a lot of the time we are advising men who are looking to buy something to surprise, impress and dazzle their girlfriends with. no assumptions can be made about what the intended recipient wants, but i think its safe to say the majority of people want a BIG, sparkly, eye clean, white diamond. ask 99% of the population about diamond table, girdle, culet and they'll be like "say wha?!". so to get nit picky and advise the men to go for something that may not be appreciable by their partner is, IMHO, doing a disservice.

I think we all need to make a more conscious effort to not push our preferences on to other newbie posters looking for advice. If you only buy VS stones, good for you, but not everyone wants to pay for something you can't see when you can get a perfectly good, eye clean SI stone. If you only like D-E-F-G stones, again good for you, but other options are perfectly fine too.

A shopper who isn't a seasoned PSer, based on "advice," might now think he has to pick an F color VS clarity stone because anything else is "yellow" or too included, when this obviously isn't the case.

I agree. If I were to buy a diamond right now, I would want a H, eye clean SI stone, with maximum brilliance and size. I might even take a small clear inclusion that I can cover with a prong.

exactly what i'm saying! i've said this before, but if my SO had come onto PS and been convinced to buy a 0.9ct F VS1 instead of my 1.23 H SI2 i would've been really unimpressed.

sometimes it really miffs me when someone comes requesting something in their budget, and immediately people go "NOPE can't do it. prices have gone up...you won't get something ideal cut. try something x.xx ct smaller". the implication is then that if they don't choose to stick with super high standards they'll end up with a dud. by coming on to PS and asking advice, they are already doing better than the majority of clueless people out there who buy uncerted included poorly cut stones at the mall. why not offer them options and let them decide. i prefer to go "hey well maybe we can't get you a F VS2, but why don't we try H or I SI1/2 - it'll still be white and eye clean, the excellent cut will mean it performs well and be stunning AND that way you can get the size you want" etcetc. then they can weigh up the differences and see which is the best option for them.

i love that everyone tries to be helpful, but lets not be close-minded when giving advice.

 

[Lula]

mmm i don't know if i see the agenda here. unless its one of those reverse reverse psychology things (the "you know that i know that you know that i know that..." haha)

but i agree with the sentiment above. as a newer member, but one who spent alot of time both researching online and in person, i give advice based on what i think is the best value without compromising on quality from my experience. others on here want to purchase the most perfect diamond they can afford even if in a smaller size, or may have been diamond collecting for much longer and have a certain "look" they are going for (small tables, particular angles, more fire, more white light, crushed ice look) despite marginally different stones still performing excellently and being beautiful. to each his own, but i think when giving advice it is important to explain where you are coming from especially to new members.

a lot of the time we are advising men who are looking to buy something to surprise, impress and dazzle their girlfriends with. no assumptions can be made about what the intended recipient wants, but i think its safe to say the majority of people want a BIG, sparkly, eye clean, white diamond. ask 99% of the population about diamond table, girdle, culet and they'll be like "say wha?!". so to get nit picky and advise the men to go for something that may not be appreciable by their partner is, IMHO, doing a disservice.

I think we all need to make a more conscious effort to not push our preferences on to other newbie posters looking for advice. If you only buy VS stones, good for you, but not everyone wants to pay for something you can't see when you can get a perfectly good, eye clean SI stone. If you only like D-E-F-G stones, again good for you, but other options are perfectly fine too.

A shopper who isn't a seasoned PSer, based on "advice," might now think he has to pick an F color VS clarity stone because anything else is "yellow" or too included, when this obviously isn't the case.

I agree. If I were to buy a diamond right now, I would want a H, eye clean SI stone, with maximum brilliance and size. I might even take a small clear inclusion that I can cover with a prong.

exactly what i'm saying! i've said this before, but if my SO had come onto PS and been convinced to buy a 0.9ct F VS1 instead of my 1.23 H SI2 i would've been really unimpressed.

sometimes it really miffs me when someone comes requesting something in their budget, and immediately people go "NOPE can't do it. prices have gone up...you won't get something ideal cut. try something x.xx ct smaller". the implication is then that if they don't choose to stick with super high standards they'll end up with a dud. by coming on to PS and asking advice, they are already doing better than the majority of clueless people out there who buy uncerted included poorly cut stones at the mall. why not offer them options and let them decide. i prefer to go "hey well maybe we can't get you a F VS2, but why don't we try H or I SI1/2 - it'll still be white and eye clean, the excellent cut will mean it performs well and be stunning AND that way you can get the size you want" etcetc. then they can weigh up the differences and see which is the best option for them.

i love that everyone tries to be helpful, but lets not be close-minded when giving advice.

I honestly don't see this happening very often on PS. In fact, more often I see the opposite -- posters trying to convince an OP to go lower in color and clarity to bump up in carat weight. But, whatever. I certainly don't read every post.

 

[marchesa6989]

imperative word there being sometimes, lula you are indeed right that often that is not the case, but sometimes it happens and then the OP gets all confused.

anyhow i think everyone has raised some good points. regardless noone should ever be a robot and listen to some random unknown person on the internet. a wise consumer would evaluate all the information and decide for themselves!

 

[TheGreatTwizz]

As a newbie, and one who had the pleasure of personally meeting Mr. Atlas and having a conversation with him, I'd like to offer a bit of 'outside' insight.

I've been on various forums since the age of the BBS (that's bulletin board service, for those of you who don't know what a 2400 baud dial-up modem was), and continue to frequent them. When one takes the time to read, you can learn a lot about what you like, what you don't, and what's good/bad/indifferent. This applies to cars, clothes, and (diamond) jewelry. I'm lucky to be one who comprehends quickly and doesn't generally have to be told something more than once. The amount of knowledge I've learned here has let me to be VERY comfortable in looking at and evaluating diamonds, at least from a consumer standpoint. I would happily, and confidently, escort any one of my friends or acquaintances on a diamond buying venture. Further, I now look VERY forward to the points in my life that I get to buy diamonds for my mother, daughter, and soon to be wife (and myself), as I have been offered such a tremendous, FREE education thanks not only to the professionals on here like RD and Mr. Atlas, but the thousands of pricescopers who can offer their knowledge, experience, and personal preferences.

As a man, coming to a forum that is, as a whole, frequented by women with beautiful, large jewelry collections, one could easily be intimidated and led to believe they should be buying F+/VS+ stones, and would otherwise have to compromise size/cut. What I did learn, in my shopping for a cushion, is that cut is, and should ALWAYS be, the paramount concern. A poorly cut stone, as I've seen many of, simply don't deliver what you pay for. That doesn't mean a stone has to be 'ideal'. I, for one, am NOT a fan of distinct hearts and arrows in a RB. As with each buyer, each stone is unique in its personality, and the cut has MUCH to do with this. The stone I ended up with had a cut that spoke to me, and I became quite attached to it. Had I not otherwise been educated here, I may have never considered a J stone. I probably would never see the color unless someone had otherwise pointed it out to me.

When it comes to ring styles, designs, etc., I was fortunate enough to have seen, touched, smelled, and louped a ring that she said 'exactly like this'. However, only with the knowledge gleaned here (especially Frankie's SK, LM, VC comparo) was I able to translate that ring (which wasn't that well made) into something even more beautiful, while putting a personalized spin on it (like setting a five point stone inside the donut; Why? Because I could.). If it weren't for the thorough discussion and thousands of pictures, I would have never been able to make those distinctions.

From newbie to newbie: Take what you read here with a grain of salt. Things like 'E is whiter than H, and thus more expensive' are simply fact and indisputable. As Mr. Atlas said, things like 'E is BETTER than H' are not. A whiter diamond isn't necessarily 'better'. Personally, I like the warm tint that comes with the color scale. I had the option to buy a G stone instead of my J. As no two fancies are cut identical, the J was a better cut, so I bought the J. Would I have bought the same stone in a D or E? Absolutely not. I could have, but wouldn't. That doesn't represent VALUE to me. If you are on pricescope, than you've made the choice to be educated and, at some point, will have to make choices to the various value propositions presented to you in shopping for a diamond. Things like 'chunky facet cushions are prettier than modern brilliant crushed ice ones' are NOT fact. They are an opinion in the eye of the beholder. As with most things in life, FOLLOW YOUR INSTINCTS. If you ask for OPINIONS on an internet message board, guess what? You're going to get them. They're going to be unbridled, and you WILL find opinions that are the opposite of yours. That doesn't mean because someone has 1k, 10k, or 100k posts and 50 carats in their jewelry box that they are an EXPERT. They simply know what THEY like. You may have different tastes.

 

[Gypsy]

My favorite thing about posts like this is that posters who aren't in the 'trenches' on RT, who say it is a thankless pain, who refuse to help out saying that have better things to do with their time are the ones who are here arguing with the vendors that they have an agenda.

You will notice that except for Yssie, none of the regular RT posters: Dreamer, Diamondseeker, Stonecold, myself, Charmy, slg, etc. have commented.

Why? Because we are out there actually helping people. Posts like this are useless for newbies, as a general rule. It will be up for a short while then disapear and none but those who are arguing their point vociferously will remember it. It doesn't affect anything. To actually affect change you need to help out in RT. As a regular poster.

If you have an opinion on something like this: post in RT on the "real" threads. If you think we are pushing our preferences-- step in and say so nicely. If you think we are a doing a good job-- step in and learn so you can do it too.

All this effort spent on something that stirs the pot. What a waste. And it also gives a bad impression to the newbies of discord and doesn't encourage them to learn enough to stay and help out-- because they can CLEARLY SEE that the vendors do not value US, so why should they join us. If there is a vendor agenda it is that... some of them appear to want the 'prosumers' to disappear so they can have free reign and use posts like this to bully consumers into listening to the vendors not the prosumers.

TheGreatTwizz and Marchesa, especially you both as newer members. Stick around HERE and help us-- we are appreciated, even if it doesn't seem like it from threads like this.

 

[Lula]

As a newbie, and one who had the pleasure of personally meeting Mr. Atlas and having a conversation with him, I'd like to offer a bit of 'outside' insight.

I've been on various forums since the age of the BBS (that's bulletin board service, for those of you who don't know what a 2400 baud dial-up modem was), and continue to frequent them. When one takes the time to read, you can learn a lot about what you like, what you don't, and what's good/bad/indifferent. This applies to cars, clothes, and (diamond) jewelry. I'm lucky to be one who comprehends quickly and doesn't generally have to be told something more than once. The amount of knowledge I've learned here has let me to be VERY comfortable in looking at and evaluating diamonds, at least from a consumer standpoint. I would happily, and confidently, escort any one of my friends or acquaintances on a diamond buying venture. Further, I now look VERY forward to the points in my life that I get to buy diamonds for my mother, daughter, and soon to be wife (and myself), as I have been offered such a tremendous, FREE education thanks not only to the professionals on here like RD and Mr. Atlas, but the thousands of pricescopers who can offer their knowledge, experience, and personal preferences.

As a man, coming to a forum that is, as a whole, frequented by women with beautiful, large jewelry collections, one could easily be intimidated and led to believe they should be buying F+/VS+ stones, and would otherwise have to compromise size/cut. What I did learn, in my shopping for a cushion, is that cut is, and should ALWAYS be, the paramount concern. A poorly cut stone, as I've seen many of, simply don't deliver what you pay for. That doesn't mean a stone has to be 'ideal'. I, for one, am NOT a fan of distinct hearts and arrows in a RB. As with each buyer, each stone is unique in its personality, and the cut has MUCH to do with this. The stone I ended up with had a cut that spoke to me, and I became quite attached to it. Had I not otherwise been educated here, I may have never considered a J stone. I probably would never see the color unless someone had otherwise pointed it out to me.

When it comes to ring styles, designs, etc., I was fortunate enough to have seen, touched, smelled, and louped a ring that she said 'exactly like this'. However, only with the knowledge gleaned here (especially Frankie's SK, LM, VC comparo) was I able to translate that ring (which wasn't that well made) into something even more beautiful, while putting a personalized spin on it (like setting a five point stone inside the donut; Why? Because I could.). If it weren't for the thorough discussion and thousands of pictures, I would have never been able to make those distinctions.

From newbie to newbie: Take what you read here with a grain of salt. Things like 'E is whiter than H, and thus more expensive' are simply fact and indisputable. As Mr. Atlas said, things like 'E is BETTER than H' are not. A whiter diamond isn't necessarily 'better'. Personally, I like the warm tint that comes with the color scale. I had the option to buy a G stone instead of my J. As no two fancies are cut identical, the J was a better cut, so I bought the J. Would I have bought the same stone in a D or E? Absolutely not. I could have, but wouldn't. That doesn't represent VALUE to me. If you are on pricescope, than you've made the choice to be educated and, at some point, will have to make choices to the various value propositions presented to you in shopping for a diamond. Things like 'chunky facet cushions are prettier than modern brilliant crushed ice ones' are NOT fact. They are an opinion in the eye of the beholder. As with most things in life, FOLLOW YOUR INSTINCTS. If you ask for OPINIONS on an internet message board, guess what? You're going to get them. They're going to be unbridled, and you WILL find opinions that are the opposite of yours. That doesn't mean because someone has 1k, 10k, or 100k posts and 50 carats in their jewelry box that they are an EXPERT. They simply know what THEY like. You may have different tastes.

Dude, that is really insulting to the many posters -- like Gypsy -- who have thousands of posts to their name and answer countless questions from newbies like you. I'm sorry, but some of the people posting here have spent years helping people get the best stone for their money, often without any thanks at all (and I am not including myself in this category, because I am admittedly too biased about what I like to be of much help). So, yeah, in my opinion, they are EXPERTS. But last time I said this, the newbie went running away, never to be seen again. We'll see what you're made of.

ETA: Effect change not affect change.

 

[Gypsy]

Par for the course on threads like this Lula, unfortunately.

 

[Laila619]

exactly what i'm saying! i've said this before, but if my SO had come onto PS and been convinced to buy a 0.9ct F VS1 instead of my 1.23 H SI2 i would've been really unimpressed.

Me too, I would have been quite disappointed. In the real world outside of PS, I would wager that more ladies would prefer a 1.25 I SI1 over a .90 F VS, if cut were equal. But color and clarity are personal preferences, so we should be careful not to imply that a certain color or clarity is bad for a newbie shopping for his girlfriend.