Tiffany takes eBay to court

[JohnQuixote]

 

[Regular Guy]

John,

I find it a bit odd you're referring to this so blithely.

I was for many years in the textbook publishing business...and one year McGraw Hill decided to take Kinkos to court. Too many textbooks being reproduced. They won...and today...you see LOTS of warnings at Kinkos, before you copy.

Why my surprise at your mention?

It does no good for Kinkos to make available something they would call...McConnel like...for Economics...if in fact in substance it is a photocopy of the book.

Likewise...how much clearing of conscience can you have when you call something "Tiffany like," when the target is to produce on target, and effect the same look.

Sorry...I love you guys...but it is my first thought to this discussion.

Clearly...EBay is big, and has deep pockets...but a decision associated with this would seem to have ripples far & wide.

 

[Maisie]

Saying something is 'Tiffany like' isn't quite the same as saying something is a genuine Tiffany piece.

 

[~*Snow*~]

Date: 11/14/2007 12:12:27 PM
Author: Regular Guy
John,

I find it a bit odd you''re referring to this so blithely.

I was for many years in the textbook publishing business...and one year McGraw Hill decided to take Kinkos to court. Too many textbooks being reproduced. They won...and today...you see LOTS of warnings at Kinkos, before you copy.

Why my surprise at your mention?

It does no good for Kinkos to make available something they would call...McConnel like...for Economics...if in fact in substance it is a photocopy of the book.

Likewise...how much clearing of conscience can you have when you call something ''Tiffany like,'' when the target is to produce on target, and effect the same look.

Sorry...I love you guys...but it is my first thought to this discussion.

Clearly...EBay is big, and has deep pockets...but a decision associated with this would seem to have ripples far & wide.

Was this American?
Because there was a simliar case here in Ontario where McGraw Hill ( i believe it was them) took the Osgoode Hall library to court( York''s Univeristy Law school). They claimed that by providing photocopiers in the law library that people were photocoping book in their intierity, and McGraw Hill lost misserably.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Ira, you're talking apples & oranges?

"Tiffany style" solitaires are common. That term is used in deference to the company which made the look popular. See this thread.

eBay users counterfeiting rings and selling them as if they were "Tiffany" rings (not Tiffany style) are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

 

[Nicrez]

I think it is all a matter of how you see e-Bay and it''s roles in each sale. They are like a giant flea market, but as owner of the "virtual building" do they have the de facto responsibility to police each vendor, as it is on their "virtual property"? Or are they just middlemen?

Personally I think e-Bay should carry some responsibility to allow posters to use the terms "authentic" and "genuine" they must have verification. Like when you post an item, it will go through a list of category filters including verifiable items of brand (which can carry a premium sale listing fee for the extra verification process) and then another category of "inspired" pieces. People should know what they buy.

From what I have seen in the industry, when a fake is passed off as real by a good faith seller, the seller who sold the fake, then returns it to his source, as in an auction house selling a Tiffany ring and when it''s verified to be a reproduction in a real box, they take it back from the purchaser and give it back to the seller. In some ways an auction house is a middleman, and although I don''t believe there is law on this, that is the practice for fear of character loss and respect within the community. As I see it, e-Bay is no different, and if you take away their duty to monitor the legality of the contracts they are helping legalize, then they are no better than a random street corner on 47th street. If they initiate Square Trade to allow for fair disputes within their community, then they are (IMO) legally obligated to take the same burden of responsibility in at least assuring that fake and counterfeits are not sold as "genuine" and "authentic".

My personal verdict will be that e-Bay is sent by the court to come up with a verifcation task force of some kind or implement a procedure to stop this counterfeiting... After all...someone should be accountable and it usually starts with the guy who makes the most profit with the least responsibility...

 

[denverappraiser]

This has been going on for a long time and eBay and Tifs have been to court over it before. Ebay customarily complains that they are not responsible for the content of advertising there, that they have no opportunity to police what people sell through their venue and pin it on the Internet protection laws. This is ridiculous. Try selling a kidney, your virginity or a machine gun through one of those drop-off stores and see how long your ad lasts before they both pull it and take reprisals against the store. They can and do monitor the content of advertising and they have a huge amount of control over how the sellers behave. They just prefer to ignore copyright violations while enforcing against other sorts of illegal sales.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Regular Guy]

Snow, in the US McGraw won...and the argument is clearly different on the point they won for...but where they lost...it sounds similar to the current brew-haha.

I haven''t studied this closely.

In your linked thread, John... the possibility of the issue of Tiffany being like Scott tissue was raised. I''m not certain it''s not being raised again. You noted there: ""Tiffany style" is used in deference to the company which made this particular look popular; buyers understand what the term implies." But...is this branding being raised really with EBay?

Otherwise...seems like with the Canadian McGraw Hill case...in some fashion E-bay is like setting up a swap meet. How much can you enforce misbehavior. Or...is that what the suit is asking E-bay to do...stop liars & swindlers? Shouldn''t they always do this?

 

[Nicrez]

Could it be for high profit without repercussions?

No, I don''t think e-Bay would ever do such a thing...

 

[Maisie]

Ebay is so massive now, there is no way they can possibly monitor every single listing. I think thats where the problem is. They rely on members to report listings which don''t look right.

 

[Nicrez]

Yes, but so were monopolies, except US legislature had something to say about that too.

A company's size (McDonalds for example) does not preclude it from tending to the tiny details (oh, say coffee temperature), that can be considered negligent if their own client is damaged by their action (or inaction in this case). Although I thought it was silly, the point the court in the very controversial "McDonald's Hot Coffee Lawsuit" was that no detail is too small for a large corporation to ignore when it comes to the good of the client and the public welfare.

The legal system is set up to create and enforce rules for small companies and large ones alike, and in a case where the public is not being served by the company's inaction, they may be forced to devise a system they CAN manage, IF the court finds it is their responsibility to do so. We are only as protected as the laws we enact.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 11/14/2007 12:58:33 PM
Author: Maisie
Ebay is so massive now, there is no way they can possibly monitor every single listing. I think thats where the problem is. They rely on members to report listings which don't look right.

Scope is a definite problem and if you check Greg Fant's comments from 2006 (first post) the answer - as Nicerz has portended - is active policing.

It's not counterfeiting per se, but the music industry has had pains in reproduction without consent; from print copies to groups performing and selling music of other composers without permission to the Napster ruckus. Historically, music protectionist groups like ASCAP and the RIAA have brought lawsuits to crack down on such practices and protect their member-artists. In this case it seems to be T&Co looking out for themselves. As a non-eBay guy (therefore no clue) I'm inclined to ask if similar large-scale fraud exists with other things sold on eBay - and can T&Co expect help from other sectors?

 

[Maisie]

I think there are lots of big name items on Ebay being sold as genuine when they are infact counterfeit.

 

[milton333]

There''s a ton of fraud on eBay, in all product categories. I''m personally familiar with, for example, lots of fraud in expensive telescopes.

EBay is also a worldwide market. A lot of sellers are from Asia and Europe. There are a TON of knockoffs. Lots of knockoff Hermes bags and scarves, for another example, out of Asia.

What, realistically, can eBay do? Some things are obviously, visibly, fraudulent. A $500 "Hermes" bag is obviously a fake. But a $1500 supposed "brand name" telescope is not demonstrably fake just from its listing.

Sellers are not required to post photos, and it costs money to post photos with your listings. Even those that do, it can be hard to evaluate craftsmanship and logos from blurry photos. Should sellers be unable to list an item unless they pay for photos, and have good digital cam skills?

It''s hard to say. You might be able to develop an algorithm to detect supposed brand name listings with suspiciously low starting prices, but lots of people list at $0.99 and let the bidding go from there, are proud that they offer "no reserve," so buyers think they might get a good deal.

I would say that known offenders should be banned. "Sockpuppets," or multiple user names from the same IP address, should also be banned. Otherwise, I think community policing seems most practical - dissatisfied buyers reporting fraud, or suspected fraud. EBay can''t inspect sellers'' products to see if they''re the real deal. What else can they do to prevent scammers from using the forum?

 

[Maisie]

Date: 11/14/2007 1:42:53 PM
Author: milton333
There''s a ton of fraud on eBay, in all product categories. I''m personally familiar with, for example, lots of fraud in expensive telescopes.

EBay is also a worldwide market. A lot of sellers are from Asia and Europe. There are a TON of knockoffs. Lots of knockoff Hermes bags and scarves, for another example, out of Asia.

What, realistically, can eBay do? Some things are obviously, visibly, fraudulent. A $500 ''Hermes'' bag is obviously a fake. But a $1500 supposed ''brand name'' telescope is not demonstrably fake just from its listing.

Sellers are not required to post photos, and it costs money to post photos with your listings. Even those that do, it can be hard to evaluate craftsmanship and logos from blurry photos. Should sellers be unable to list an item unless they pay for photos, and have good digital cam skills?

It''s hard to say. You might be able to develop an algorithm to detect supposed brand name listings with suspiciously low starting prices, but lots of people list at $0.99 and let the bidding go from there, are proud that they offer ''no reserve,'' so buyers think they might get a good deal.

I would say that known offenders should be banned. ''Sockpuppets,'' or multiple user names from the same IP address, should also be banned. Otherwise, I think community policing seems most practical - dissatisfied buyers reporting fraud, or suspected fraud. EBay can''t inspect sellers'' products to see if they''re the real deal. What else can they do to prevent scammers from using the forum?

But surely someone somewhere has to take responsibility for the Ebay company. If you are going to open up such a huge market, there has to be rules that are enforced....

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/14/2007 1:13:07 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 11/14/2007 12:58:33 PM
Author: Maisie
Ebay is so massive now, there is no way they can possibly monitor every single listing. I think thats where the problem is. They rely on members to report listings which don''t look right.

Scope is a definite problem and if you check Greg Fant''s comments from 2006 (first post) the answer - as Nicerz has portended - is active policing.

It''s not counterfeiting per se, but the music industry has had pains in reproduction without consent; from print copies to groups performing and selling music of other composers without permission to the Napster ruckus. Historically, music protectionist groups like ASCAP and the RIAA have brought lawsuits to crack down on such practices and protect their member-artists. In this case it seems to be T&Co looking out for themselves. As a non-eBay guy (therefore no clue) I''m inclined to ask if similar large-scale fraud exists with other things sold on eBay - and can T&Co expect help from other sectors?

Or help other sectors start the (lawsuit) concert..., (wake up the dead....

)

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 11/14/2007 12:51:58 PM
Author: Regular Guy

In your linked thread, John... the possibility of the issue of Tiffany being like Scott tissue was raised. I''m not certain it''s not being raised again. You noted there: ''''Tiffany style'' is used in deference to the company which made this particular look popular; buyers understand what the term implies.'' But...is this branding being raised really with EBay?

"You keep using that word. I donna theenk it means what you theenk it means..."

According to Reuters, the AP and a couple of friends at T&Co this is about counterfeiting: Fake jewelry sold as genuine Tiffany products. But I don''t wish to dismiss your thoughts blithely

Ira, so if you have other evidence please link me.

 

[Regular Guy]

No, Braveheart, I''m sure you''re right, John.

I thought about this over lunch. Between McConnel''s Economics...and a circle...surely the "Tiffany style" as an item that''s a ring falls closer to a circle. Hard to copyright.

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/14/2007 4:02:46 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 11/14/2007 12:51:58 PM
Author: Regular Guy

In your linked thread, John... the possibility of the issue of Tiffany being like Scott tissue was raised. I''m not certain it''s not being raised again. You noted there: ''Tiffany style'' is used in deference to the company which made this particular look popular; buyers understand what the term implies.'' But...is this branding being raised really with EBay?

''You keep using that word. I donna theenk it means what you theenk it means...''

According to Reuters, the AP and a couple of friends at T&Co this is about counterfeiting: Fake jewelry sold as genuine Tiffany products. But I don''t wish to dismiss your thoughts blithely

Ira, so if you have other evidence please link me.

It seems to me Tiffany has enjoyed the fact that jewelers around the world are using the name "Tiffany Style" or even copying products to market similar (but not "equaled") products!!!

Text from the book called "Tiffany Diamonds by John Loring": page 295.


"The Tiffany setting
Around the world, the Tiffany Setting
is the most honored and recognized
engagement ring ever. Since its inception
well over a century ago, this ring has
been copied but never equaled. The
ingenious six prong setting lifts the dia-
mond up into the light where its fine
faceting can release its brilliance, disper-
sion, and scintillation."

 

[Maisie]

Date: 11/14/2007 4:02:46 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 11/14/2007 12:51:58 PM
Author: Regular Guy

In your linked thread, John... the possibility of the issue of Tiffany being like Scott tissue was raised. I'm not certain it's not being raised again. You noted there: 'Tiffany style' is used in deference to the company which made this particular look popular; buyers understand what the term implies.' But...is this branding being raised really with EBay?

'You keep using that word. I donna theenk it means what you theenk it means...'

According to Reuters, the AP and a couple of friends at T&Co this is about counterfeiting: Fake jewelry sold as genuine Tiffany products. But I don't wish to dismiss your thoughts blithely

Ira, so if you have other evidence please link me.

Ha!! I know what this means!! I've seen the movie!!

 

[Sharon101]

My personal favourites are Rolex and Cartier watches being sold by their owners who arent real sure if they are real....(like who can tell right????). But the price reflects the fact that they are indeed real! My other absolute favorite is when these same owners vouch for the authentisity 100%....or even 200% but ....shame....they left all the papers and the box etc OS, or its lost!!!! That seems to happen all the time!!!!

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/14/2007 5:03:15 PM
Author: Maisie

Date: 11/14/2007 4:02:46 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 11/14/2007 12:51:58 PM
Author: Regular Guy

In your linked thread, John... the possibility of the issue of Tiffany being like Scott tissue was raised. I''m not certain it''s not being raised again. You noted there: ''Tiffany style'' is used in deference to the company which made this particular look popular; buyers understand what the term implies.'' But...is this branding being raised really with EBay?

''You keep using that word. I donna theenk it means what you theenk it means...''

According to Reuters, the AP and a couple of friends at T&Co this is about counterfeiting: Fake jewelry sold as genuine Tiffany products. But I don''t wish to dismiss your thoughts blithely

Ira, so if you have other evidence please link me.

Ha!! I know what this means!! I''ve seen the movie!!

Ok...please...will one of you tell?

 

[Ty Cobb]

To mean I don''t know why "Tiffany Style" is even in debate on this. People are selling Tiffany jewelry as a genuine Tiffany item that is not really Tiffany jewelry. That is fraud if nothing else.

Yes, since ebay is making a profit off of it, they are responsible for the items being sold. If you something is sold illegally on your premises you are responsible. A flea market in Austin got fined out the wazoo because one of their booths was selling alcohol without a license and to minors, I think they also got in trouble for buying it in Mexico and not declaring it when they came across the border. But there you go.


You want a really good example-- Search for Thomas Kinkade "forest Chapel" on ebay and look at all the offers from Thailand to paint you an oil copy of the original for like $50.

Yeah ebay needs to be held accountable, just as any other property owner who allows illegal business on his/her property.

I have been lucky, I bought 3 things off ebay that were from Tiffs, they have all checked out, but you have to be careful.

Lots of people just post the Tiff website picture, I think that is why Tiffs doesn''t let you save the images from their website anymore.

If Napster could be held responsible for the music sharing on it, then Ebay can as well for counterfit merchandise.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Ira - A great rental at the minimum. Perfect for family night. I'm a proud owner in regular and Blu-Ray.

TyCobb and others: Who patrols the illicit selling of prescription drugs via the 'net (someone not very effective maybe)? As illegal trafficking and fraud on the internet grows do you think we're likely to have a growing cyber-cop presence? Law enforcement is busting 'net child-stalkers, at least, even now.


Maise - welcome to the club. I mean it.

(Anybody want a peanut?)

 

[risingsun]

Date: 11/14/2007 5:03:15 PM
Author: Maisie

Date: 11/14/2007 4:02:46 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 11/14/2007 12:51:58 PM
Author: Regular Guy

In your linked thread, John... the possibility of the issue of Tiffany being like Scott tissue was raised. I''m not certain it''s not being raised again. You noted there: ''Tiffany style'' is used in deference to the company which made this particular look popular; buyers understand what the term implies.'' But...is this branding being raised really with EBay?

''You keep using that word. I donna theenk it means what you theenk it means...''

According to Reuters, the AP and a couple of friends at T&Co this is about counterfeiting: Fake jewelry sold as genuine Tiffany products. But I don''t wish to dismiss your thoughts blithely

Ira, so if you have other evidence please link me.

Ha!! I know what this means!! I''ve seen the movie!!

Ditto

 

[CaptAubrey]

This is a murkier issue than it may appear to be, for several reasons.

Traditionally, auctioneer liability has been quite limited. The auction house is not acting as a guarantor or insurer for either party; it merely provides the venue and takes a percentage of the sale. Issues of fraud and misrepresentation have to be litigated between buyer and seller.

The issue here is one of trademark: Tiffany alleges that large amounts of counterfeit goods are being falsely sold as genuine Tiffany items through eBay. There is no question they would have a trademark infringement case against the sellers, but against eBay is another question. Under traditional auction law, eBay is not required to police its auctions, though it must act when it has actual knowledge of illegality--and it does so.

One roadblock to this suit is that there are a variety of laws on the books providing varying degrees of immunity to internet hosting companies for material posted by third parties. That normally applies to defamatory postings (say, for example, on Pricescope) for which the hosting company cannot be held liable. Do these laws apply to auctions as well? Nobody is sure yet, which is why this case is still working its way throug the courts after three years.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 11/14/2007 7:24:20 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Ira - A great rental at the minimum. Perfect for family night. I'm a proud owner in regular and Blu-Ray.

or you can download a bootleg copy here.

Sorry, couldn't get link working.

.

Very tough to prevent counterfeiting on eBay - sometimes the sellers don't even realize. I've seen a few honest ones devastated by huge returns. Most ideas I can think of can be easily overcome or even used by competitors to discredit honest sellers.

Only thing I can think of is eBay inserting a big 'beware' sidebar to items which are commonly counterfeited. Big companies have departments dedicated to counterfeiting and booklets on indentification. Maybe these could be linked to.

 

[MrNyceGuy]

Date: 11/14/2007 12:49:10 PM
Author: denverappraiser
This has been going on for a long time and eBay and Tifs have been to court over it before. Ebay customarily complains that they are not responsible for the content of advertising there, that they have no opportunity to police what people sell through their venue and pin it on the Internet protection laws. This is ridiculous. Try selling a kidney, your virginity or a machine gun through one of those drop-off stores and see how long your ad lasts before they both pull it and take reprisals against the store. They can and do monitor the content of advertising and they have a huge amount of control over how the sellers behave. They just prefer to ignore copyright violations while enforcing against other sorts of illegal sales.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

Neil,

I morally agree with your argument. However, a kidney, machine gun and one''s virginity (using your examples) are illegal in themselves. Authentic Tiffany jewelery is not. In that sense it is extremely difficult for eBay to verify the items authenticity in the thousands (probably even millions, I''m not sure) of daily auctions that take place. eBay does not have the capacity to do such a thing nevermind the properly trained employees to know a counterfeit from a real item. For this reason it''s nearly impossible to know which auctions are for fake items and which are for real. Perhaps they could require a copy of an original receipt to sell an item but even then you could probably use one original receipt to sell 100 copies of an item over and over again. It''s a much more complicated issue than simply "They just prefer to ignore copyright violations while enforcing against other sorts of illegal sales." Illegal is different than counterfeit items of legal merchandise. I''d like to see eBay take additional steps so that I could buy authentic items with peace of mind through them, but I doubt the solution is anywhere in the near future. It''s simply too complex. Hope I''m wrong

 

[Maisie]

Date: 11/14/2007 7:24:20 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Ira - A great rental at the minimum. Perfect for family night. I''m a proud owner in regular and Blu-Ray.

TyCobb and others: Who patrols the illicit selling of prescription drugs via the ''net (someone not very effective maybe)? As illegal trafficking and fraud on the internet grows do you think we''re likely to have a growing cyber-cop presence? Law enforcement is busting ''net child-stalkers, at least, even now.


Maise - welcome to the club. I mean it.

(Anybody want a peanut?)

Well thank you very much

 

[erica k]

speaking of fake Tiffany rings, i was browsing eBay listings and came across this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180179833586&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us

i dunno, but there''s something a little off about the ring. i thought Tiffany three-stones had those flying buttresses linking the heads to the shank? and i can''t believe Tiffany would mismatch stone colors in this way.

this particular seller offers a 3 day money-back guarantee (lots of fine print) and an NGL certificate for the ring. maybe the ring is a fake but the seller is hoping most customers will accept the guarantee as an article of good faith? of maybe the ring isn''t a fake and the joke is on me? (note: i have no interest in buying this ring, but i''m interested in the issue of copyright laws).

listings like these make me only want to buy from signed pieces or pearlmans on eBay.