The rough for my Octavia (pics)...

[WinkHPD]

Cool, I can't wait!



I guess that this process is different to just getting an existing diamond re-cut?

From what was posted in another thread, re-cutting an existing stone is, what, $350 + $350/kt, so it would be, in theory, $1050 plus any shipping costs to re-cut a 2kt stone (to a MRB in the $350 case).


Are the costs higher if cutting a rough, due to additional assessment and other processes that need to take place?

e.g. If DF had sent in a rough to a cutter that he had bought from A.N.Other person, would the total costs just be what it would cost to actually scan, measure, work out the best cut and then the cutting process itself? Or would it be more, and depend on the end specification of the stone, as has been alluded to earlier in this thread?


Following on from that line of thought, if one is buying a rough from a vendor and getting them to cut it, how does the charging structure work? If the example of the re-cutting process was followed, the cost would seemingly be Price of Rough (and associated searching for it) + costs of evaluation + costs of cutting.

That would surely equal less than the Retail Cost of the end result because the profit margin on the stone (which would ordinarily pay for the cutting costs etc that had been carried out at the vendors own risk, and then the costs of running the shop to sell the stone and the profit required/desired on top of the actual costs) would not be necessary - the profit would come from the money received for carrying out the searching and assessment and cutting services, without the need for profit margin to cover 'shop space' and so on.


So, in effect, buying from a vendor as normal would mean:
purchase price of the completed stone = price of rough + price of assessment + price of cutting + price of grading + costs of running a shop to sell it + profit margin on top.

Profit margin would be determined by the end specifications of the completed stone determining its price and therefore how much profit there is between price of sale minus price of processing.


But... buying a rough and commissioning its cutting would mean:
purchase price of the completed stone = price of rough + price of assessment + price of cutting + price of grading + costs of staff to carry out communications during the process, all without profit margin on top, because the commissioner would be paying all costs for the processing.

Therefore... the end specifications of the stone cut from the rough, and the price it would sell for on the open market, would be irrelevant and would not increase the price to the commissioner over and above the costs of the cutting process because the vendor has just provided the cutting service and had all their costs covered by the commissioner (as in the case of the re-cutting service) so they are not out of pocket.

Granted, some small profit margin would probably be built in to each stage of the process, but it would not be as much as would be realised were the stone to end up, say, a large and high-spec stone and sold through the 'as normal' process above.

It does seem as though the end spec of the stone does impact on the price of the completed stone, though, going from the thread? I presume this is to cover previously incurred development costs, additional hassles created by the different approach to normal, the fact that people have to make a living...


Anyway, does the above make any sense to anyone but me in my head?


I understand these are sensitive discussions and vendors are completely at liberty to answer or ignore our questions as they see fit, and are also at liberty to charge appropriately so they can operate with a level of profit margin that can ensure they provide the service we know and love and appreciate but I thought I'd ask the questions anyway, just so I can get them out of my head... lol

Mods - please delete if you see fit!

Sorry my friend, but you are wide of the mark. In theory your reasoning sounds okay, but there are realities that jump in to bite you.

Because of the value of rough and the extremely narrow margins that cutters can make on their bulk purchases, any rough that you as a consumer are able to purchase will be priced too high for you to have it cut and reach that holy grail of a "cheaper than normal wholesale" diamond.

Add in now the complex regulations and controls for the Kimberly Accords and you may well find it impossible to find any competent cutter who will accept your diamond rough, as you will not have the requisite paper work to prove that you came by it legitimately. (Did you know that in many countries you can be imprisoned just for having rough diamonds on your person without a hard to get license?)

If you do have the paper work, you paid too much for the diamond. (Catch 22 here, in full force. Why would you as a one time purchaser be able to buy a diamond for less than someone who buys millions of dollars worth per year as a site holder?)

I have talked with dozens of people over the past thirty years, all of them long before the Kimberley accords, and not one of them has ever brought me a piece of diamond rough that was, in my opinion, worth the money to cut, no matter what the original cost of the rough. (I would not let you even bring me a piece to look at today, the sanctions are too horrific if it turned out to be a conflict diamond.)

There is an article here someplace that Paul Slegers of Crafted by Infinity Diamonds wrote several years ago about how he lost his shirt on a parcel of rough. This is a man who handles and buys LOTS of diamonds and rough every year, and will all of his knowledge and experience he lost thousands of dollars on that parcel. Fortunately, he does not do that often!

I strongly suggest that you consider how transparent the market for diamonds is, and how small the margins are today and do not even waste time thinking about how to get around paying those margins for the purchase of your diamond. It will only end up costing you MUCH more than if you had just bought the diamond in the polished form.

Just my thoughts of course...

Wink

 

[OoohShiny]

Sorry my friend, but you are wide of the mark. In theory your reasoning sounds okay, but there are realities that jump in to bite you.

Because of the value of rough and the extremely narrow margins that cutters can make on their bulk purchases, any rough that you as a consumer are able to purchase will be priced too high for you to have it cut and reach that holy grail of a "cheaper than normal wholesale" diamond.

Add in now the complex regulations and controls for the Kimberly Accords and you may well find it impossible to find any competent cutter who will accept your diamond rough, as you will not have the requisite paper work to prove that you came by it legitimately. (Did you know that in many countries you can be imprisoned just for having rough diamonds on your person without a hard to get license?)

If you do have the paper work, you paid too much for the diamond. (Catch 22 here, in full force. Why would you as a one time purchaser be able to buy a diamond for less than someone who buys millions of dollars worth per year as a site holder?)

I have talked with dozens of people over the past thirty years, all of them long before the Kimberley accords, and not one of them has ever brought me a piece of diamond rough that was, in my opinion, worth the money to cut, no matter what the original cost of the rough. (I would not let you even bring me a piece to look at today, the sanctions are too horrific if it turned out to be a conflict diamond.)

There is an article here someplace that Paul Slegers of Crafted by Infinity Diamonds wrote several years ago about how he lost his shirt on a parcel of rough. This is a man who handles and buys LOTS of diamonds and rough every year, and will all of his knowledge and experience he lost thousands of dollars on that parcel. Fortunately, he does not do that often!

I strongly suggest that you consider how transparent the market for diamonds is, and how small the margins are today and do not even waste time thinking about how to get around paying those margins for the purchase of your diamond. It will only end up costing you MUCH more than if you had just bought the diamond in the polished form.

Just my thoughts of course...

Wink

Thanks very much for your response, Wink, it is enlightening to a n00b like myself

At least the reasoning that was going through my head was not completely insane! but it is always difficult to make comments on something when one is not in possession of the full facts, so I hope you will excuse me putting my thought processes down that perhaps other n00bs might well be thinking in one form or another

Your comments are very useful into this thread and they make the whole process clearer for not only this custom cutting scenario but all diamond purchase scenarios!


You are a valuable asset, thank you


It does seem that the only real 'bargains' that are out there must be old, poorly cut larger stones bought in estate sales or handed down through the family, which have enough weight that re-cutting them won't cause them to be too small, and have enough provenance to not create any issues!

 

[Karl_K]

It does seem that the only real 'bargains' that are out there must be old, poorly cut larger stones bought in estate sales or handed down through the family, which have enough weight that re-cutting them won't cause them to be too small, and have enough provenance to not create any issues!

Around here lately estate sales are not a place to find bargains.
To many ebay resellers competing for the goods has driven prices up and the professional estate sellers know it.

 

[Karl_K]

Sorry my friend, but you are wide of the mark. In theory your reasoning sounds okay, but there are realities that jump in to bite you.

Because of the value of rough and the extremely narrow margins that cutters can make on their bulk purchases, any rough that you as a consumer are able to purchase will be priced too high for you to have it cut and reach that holy grail of a "cheaper than normal wholesale" diamond.

Add in now the complex regulations and controls for the Kimberly Accords and you may well find it impossible to find any competent cutter who will accept your diamond rough, as you will not have the requisite paper work to prove that you came by it legitimately. (Did you know that in many countries you can be imprisoned just for having rough diamonds on your person without a hard to get license?)

If you do have the paper work, you paid too much for the diamond. (Catch 22 here, in full force. Why would you as a one time purchaser be able to buy a diamond for less than someone who buys millions of dollars worth per year as a site holder?)

I have talked with dozens of people over the past thirty years, all of them long before the Kimberley accords, and not one of them has ever brought me a piece of diamond rough that was, in my opinion, worth the money to cut, no matter what the original cost of the rough. (I would not let you even bring me a piece to look at today, the sanctions are too horrific if it turned out to be a conflict diamond.)

There is an article here someplace that Paul Slegers of Crafted by Infinity Diamonds wrote several years ago about how he lost his shirt on a parcel of rough. This is a man who handles and buys LOTS of diamonds and rough every year, and will all of his knowledge and experience he lost thousands of dollars on that parcel. Fortunately, he does not do that often!

I strongly suggest that you consider how transparent the market for diamonds is, and how small the margins are today and do not even waste time thinking about how to get around paying those margins for the purchase of your diamond. It will only end up costing you MUCH more than if you had just bought the diamond in the polished form.

Just my thoughts of course...

Wink

Wink covered it pretty well.
Something to understand is there is no RAP for rough.
The general price is set by what it can yield.
These days unless your a site holder more than likely you are bidding for a lot of rough against other buyers the majority of the time.
You estimation yield, color and clarity of the finished product from the rough and submit the price your willing to pay. Sometimes in an open auction format but more often in a silent auction format where you submit a sealed bid. Often you just have a few min. to see the rough lot and set your bid.
Bid too low you don't get rough, bid too high and you don't get your money back.

There is always a risk that your estimate is off and you over pay for even the best rough buyers.

 

[aljdewey]

I may be in the minority, but I feel like it's really intrusive to ask for particulars about how pricing may move dependent on the finished product.

While the questions are well-intentioned and come from sheer curiosity to understand how it works, I think it puts GOG in a position of having to disclose terms of an agreed contract with people who aren't party to the transaction. In their position, I know I wouldn't be comfortable with that.

It's enough to me to expect that both DF and GOG were smart enough to each protect their interests in the deal so it ends up fair, and beyond that, I think the details should be between them.

Just my $.02.

 

[kenny]

I may be in the minority, but I feel like it's really intrusive to ask for particulars about how pricing may move dependent on the finished product.

While the questions are well-intentioned and come from sheer curiosity to understand how it works, I think it puts GOG in a position of having to disclose terms of an agreed contract with people who aren't party to the transaction. In their position, I know I wouldn't be comfortable with that.

It's enough to me to expect that both DF and GOG were smart enough to each protect their interests in the deal so it ends up fair, and beyond that, I think the details should be between them.

Just my $.02.

Oh Brother.
Here we go again.
Like I said the Internet and PS in particular will send this into the toilet, like fast .. so here we go folks.

AL, that's why I posted, and maybe you didn't read :

"I realize I'm asking personal and perhaps rude questions, so you are totally free to not answer or even respond.

I'm just curious how such a unique project, with so many complicated business considerations, would be structured and priced for GOG and the customer to agree to to proceed."

Then ...

"No problem.
I bet I'm not the only one who has wondered about the gory details of commissioning such a project."
(I was right, other posted they shared my curiosity.)

Then I posted ...

I think this is a legit topic since other customers may 'commission' diamonds from rough in the future.
Wanting to understand how such projects are structured is reasonable, though Jon and DF are certainly under no obligation to reveal anything.
The details are nobody's business, but even a discussion in generic terms may be helpful.


Then ...

I would not expect Jon to publish detailed terms that tie his hands in the future.

It's Jon's call.
I'd totally understand if he wanted to handle every aspect of every deal in private.

But this is PS and we discuss all things diamonds ... and this is a very unique project so IMO curiosity is understandable.
Again, no problem if no details are forthcoming.

Then Jon himself posted, "They are honest questions that deserve honest answers."

Then the AbFab thing.

Then, I posted, "This is NOT a personal reflection whatsoever on GOG or any vendor ... just my own hang up, and my own fault for being so transparent here on PS. YMMV!

Jon, again, you are under no obligation whatsoever to post answers to my questions.
If details are to be worked out in private, no problem.
Just say so.

I realize commissioning the cut of any diamond from rough, let alone such a specialized cut like the Octavia, is an extraordinarily complex transaction.
The most comprehensive pricing structure may simply not cover all the possible factors."

Then I posted ...

I've done a lot of business with Jon at GOG and love the guy, his product and policies.

I guess you didn't notice any of that.
But hey aljdewey, use your whole 2 cent to bash away.
Knock yourself out.

I stand by everything I've posted.
How sad people want to turn something positive and helpful to the community and something which may increase sales and get some customers some unique perfect personal diamond cuts into something negative and personal.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Kenny was quite clear that he was very curious about the dynamics of the transaction, but also respected that confidentiality might prevent response to the questions.

Let's face it Kenny, drama is going to find you no matter what you say (or don't say).

I would say this for those thinking that they want to understand the process so that they might consider buying some rough and having it cut. That is not at all the way the world works. This is a VERY unique situation. Also, very cool to witness, especially with the beautiful documentation and explanations of the cutting process that Yoram is providing.

As Kenny and others have said, it would be very interesting to know the details of the transaction, how pricing was established, who has what risk, etc. The participants in the transaction may very well have a variety of legitimate misgivings about making such details public. And the public is not necessarily being deprived of useful knowledge since it is highly unlikely that a consumer will have the opportunity to buy a crystal like this and have it custom cut. This is a very unique and interesting case.

 

[aljdewey]

Kenny, my post was not directed at you individually, so you can lower the "outrage" flag, ok? YOU are the one assuming that every single post is about you. I know it must be super hard to step outside your own awesome orb, but TRY, ok?

I was under NO misunderstanding about your posts, and I didn't feel they were out of line at all, for the effing record. You were super clear that a) you were just curious and b) if they didn't want to answer, no harm no foul. That's why I didn't address my comments TO YOU........

Several other posts after that started to run with that discussion, though, in ways that might feel like pressure, and that's why I posted my single opinion and that's ALL it is......a single opinion. Not directed at you, not about you......nothing to do with you at all. I know that's just so hard to believe - that people could post $hit that has nothing to do with you......but there it is.

 

[aljdewey]

Kenny was quite clear that he was very curious about the dynamics of the transaction, but also respected that confidentiality might prevent response to the questions.

Let's face it Kenny, drama is going to find you no matter what you say (or don't say).

Again, Bryan, *I'm* quite clear on what Kenny's post was about, so my post was not about his.

And perhaps drama finds Kenny because everyone assumes that every post is about Kenny. For me, PS is much bigger than Kenny - sure, he's a really cool piece of it's, but certainly not the only piece. There were at least a dozen other participants in this thread.

Perhaps a little less presumption would lessen the drama.

 

[aljdewey]

As Kenny and others have said, it would be very interesting to know the details of the transaction, how pricing was established, who has what risk, etc. The participants in the transaction may very well have a variety of legitimate misgivings about making such details public. And the public is not necessarily being deprived of useful knowledge since it is highly unlikely that a consumer will have the opportunity to buy a crystal like this and have it custom cut. This is a very unique and interesting case.

And that's precisely the point I was trying to make. It's possible that the curiosity, while genuine, has wedged folks into a difficult position. In my primary line of work, I know that terms are much more malleable for significant value transactions than they are for standard value transactions, and once terms are public, people other than high-value clients will not only want but expect the same. It's a dangerous slope, and I'd feel for any vendor put in that position.

To be sure I'm absolutely understood here.......I am 1000000% sure that the questions were well-intentioned and borne solely from curiosity. That said, I know it could put those involved in a sticky position, and I wanted to put it out there that perhaps it might be wiser to keep those details private. So I did through my post. That's all there was to it - no ill intent and no drama meant.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Kenny was quite clear that he was very curious about the dynamics of the transaction, but also respected that confidentiality might prevent response to the questions.

Let's face it Kenny, drama is going to find you no matter what you say (or don't say).

Again, Bryan, *I'm* quite clear on what Kenny's post was about, so my post was not about his.

I hear you. My comments were likewise meant to dial down expectation and any pressure that the participants might be feeling in making all their business public. If I were involved, I would probably want to keep many of the details private.
I think we should all focus on the wonderful opportunity we have to see the results of the process, even if we don't learn the details of the transaction.

 

[aljdewey]

I hear you. My comments were likewise meant to dial down expectation and any pressure that the participants might be feeling in making all their business public. If I were involved, I would probably want to keep many of the details private.
I think we should all focus on the wonderful opportunity we have to see the results of the process, even if we don't learn the details of the transaction.

THIS is precisely why I posted what I did initially. When multiple people are expressing interest, it can feel like pressure to disclose something that you'd rather not disclose, and I wanted to diffuse that. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be in that position.

Oh......and this post is ALSO NOT ABOUT KENNY, for anyone who cares. Maybe I should make that my siggy -

"another post, brought to you by aljdewey, that has nothing to do with Kenny."

 

[WinkHPD]

<SNIP>

Thanks very much for your response, Wink, it is enlightening to a n00b like myself

At least the reasoning that was going through my head was not completely insane! but it is always difficult to make comments on something when one is not in possession of the full facts, so I hope you will excuse me putting my thought processes down that perhaps other n00bs might well be thinking in one form or another

Your comments are very useful into this thread and they make the whole process clearer for not only this custom cutting scenario but all diamond purchase scenarios!


You are a valuable asset, thank you


It does seem that the only real 'bargains' that are out there must be old, poorly cut larger stones bought in estate sales or handed down through the family, which have enough weight that re-cutting them won't cause them to be too small, and have enough provenance to not create any issues!

Why would I excuse you for asking a great question and putting down some interesting thoughts? The free and easy exchange of information is what makes Pricescope such a rare and edifying treat. As often happens, your comments made me think about many things and compelled me to share with you a little of my thinking.

Another of those comments has to do with Karl's comment just below yours. When a dealer bids at those auctions and is within 20% of the winning bid, the winning bid is disclosed to the dealer so that the dealer knows where the next bid must be. I was astounded by the number of times I heard that after offering what the dealer considered too much that the dealer learned that their bid was not even within 20% of the winning bid.

It is a difficult world in which to be a diamond cutter these days.

Wink

 

[AprilBaby]

To get back to the topic, where did DF get the rough if it's hard for a consumer to own one? Did Jon have it and DF choose to buy it? ( maybe I missed this somewhere??) and do very many people buy their diamonds as rough and have them cut? Totally fascinating thread!

 

[Karl_K]

To get back to the topic, where did DF get the rough if it's hard for a consumer to own one? Did Jon have it and DF choose to buy it? ( maybe I missed this somewhere??) and do very many people buy their diamonds as rough and have them cut? Totally fascinating thread!

Yoram owns the rough we will not cut rough he did not supply and there is no polished cut that will recut into an Octavia.

 

[Karl_K]

Ok to end the drama.
It is going to take us some time to figure this out if and when we can make this a public program.
Until then it will be offered on a case by case basis and we ask that privacy be respected and the details kept between those involved.

Being open and transparent is important to all involved but at this time we can not be locked into one model without spending a lot more time on it.

Thank you for your trust, support and understanding.
Pictures and details of the cutting process will be provided as promised!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Ok to end the drama.
It is going to take us some time to figure this out if and when we can make this a public program.
Until then it will be offered on a case by case basis and we ask that privacy be respected and the details kept between those involved.

Being open and transparent is important to all involved but at this time we can not be locked into one model without spending a lot more time on it.

Thank you for your trust, support and understanding.
Pictures and details of the cutting process will be provided as promised!

YEAH ...

 

[thecat]

Hoping for more pics soon! Who is cutting DF's Octavia? Yoram or another cutter? Is Yoram primarily a cutter or a spokesperson for his cutting facility?

 

[MissGotRocks]

Ok to end the drama.
It is going to take us some time to figure this out if and when we can make this a public program.
Until then it will be offered on a case by case basis and we ask that privacy be respected and the details kept between those involved.

Being open and transparent is important to all involved but at this time we can not be locked into one model without spending a lot more time on it.

Thank you for your trust, support and understanding.
Pictures and details of the cutting process will be provided as promised!

Excellent response Karl! We look forward to seeing the progression of the stone being cut!

 

[Sparklelu]

Stop the yakking and start posting pictures!!
This is going to be fascinating. Such a cool thing to watch. I too would entertain the thought of hanging on to the rough and wearing it around my neck for a while!! LOL

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Ok to end the drama.
It is going to take us some time to figure this out if and when we can make this a public program.
Until then it will be offered on a case by case basis and we ask that privacy be respected and the details kept between those involved.

Being open and transparent is important to all involved but at this time we can not be locked into one model without spending a lot more time on it.

Thank you for your trust, support and understanding.
Pictures and details of the cutting process will be provided as promised!

Exactly as it should be. Anyone wanting a stone custom cut can call Jon and ask about their particular situation.

 

[kenny]

Ok to end the drama.
It is going to take us some time to figure this out if and when we can make this a public program.
Until then it will be offered on a case by case basis and we ask that privacy be respected and the details kept between those involved.

Being open and transparent is important to all involved but at this time we can not be locked into one model without spending a lot more time on it.

Thank you for your trust, support and understanding.
Pictures and details of the cutting process will be provided as promised!

Thanks Karl, and all.

Can't wait for more pics.

 

[dk168]

Looking forward to updates on the cutting process and more pics, without the drama!

DK

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hoping for more pics soon! Who is cutting DF's Octavia? Yoram or another cutter? Is Yoram primarily a cutter or a spokesperson for his cutting facility?

Yes he is the cutter for my Octavia.

 

[thecat]

Hoping for more pics soon! Who is cutting DF's Octavia? Yoram or another cutter? Is Yoram primarily a cutter or a spokesperson for his cutting facility?

Yes he is the cutter for my Octavia.

Can't wait to see his work! Photos, photos, photos!

 

[Tekate]

Mr DF! I look very much forward to this process and thank you and all the vendors for allowing the process to be shown.. I have dealt with GOG once.. not Jon but his son and a nice girl and found them to be STELLAR.. so this is very exciting to me because as I have said before.. Kenny's Octavia is the most beautiful stone I have ever seen and watching one be created is just a happy adventure for me! thanks to all.

kate

Ok to end the drama.
It is going to take us some time to figure this out if and when we can make this a public program.
Until then it will be offered on a case by case basis and we ask that privacy be respected and the details kept between those involved.

Being open and transparent is important to all involved but at this time we can not be locked into one model without spending a lot more time on it.

Thank you for your trust, support and understanding.
Pictures and details of the cutting process will be provided as promised!

YEAH ...

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

Hey all,

Apologies for the late reply. Karl, Yoram and myself are discussing in email and will bring our thoughts here as soon as possible as we have our personal thoughts about it and the process (which really is an amazing journey) and of which the consumer is generally never ever a part of however we are interested in hearing your thoughts concerning our conversation as well.

To be continued...

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

Jonathon,

I appreciate your coming on here to discuss this issue. It is indeed incredibly complex and I am sure that it is handled in many many different ways by different cutters. I am fascinated to see how some others handle this complex issue and I applaud you having the courage and the integrity to do so publicly.

Wink

Well it is a very complex subject. But I can think of two models I've worked with:

A) Costs+ Model (client takes the risk) price is set beforehand and is independent of the final grading report and market value.

B) Based on market value with a finished grading report (where we assume the risk) and the price we charge depends on the lab grading report.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hey all,

Apologies for the late reply. Karl, Yoram and myself are discussing in email and will bring our thoughts here as soon as possible as we have our personal thoughts about it and the process (which really is an amazing journey) and of which the consumer is generally never ever a part of however we are interested in hearing your thoughts concerning our conversation as well.

To be continued...

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

Jonathon,

I appreciate your coming on here to discuss this issue. It is indeed incredibly complex and I am sure that it is handled in many many different ways by different cutters. I am fascinated to see how some others handle this complex issue and I applaud you having the courage and the integrity to do so publicly.

Wink

Well it is a very complex subject. But I can think of two models I've worked with:

A) Costs+ Model (client takes the risk) price is set beforehand and is independent of the final grading report and market value.

B) Based on market value with a finished grading report (where we assume the risk) and the price we charge depends on the lab grading report.

Model A seems to be the only workable solution. That's how we've worked with Yoram on our specialty cuts. It is VERY complex and demands a long term commitment due to the volatile nature of the business. Sometimes we get a bad surprise from GIA, sometimes a nice one- but either loss, or gain, it's on us if we've commissioned the purchase of rough.
Basically, as a buyer, it's far less complicated buying the polished stone. Surely buying polished is the best alternative for consumers who generally only want to buy one diamond, as opposed to committing to a whole production.

Very cool stone DF! I also can't wait to see Yoram work his magic on this one!!
Congrats.

 

[Karl_K]

While I appreciate trade members input and want to extend a welcome to the new trade member posting here, I feel it is not fair to DF to pursue it further in this thread.
We will not be making it public at this time.
I am working on a post and PS admin approval for a thread on the subject sometime after the weekend and we can all debate and discuss it if they approve then.

 

[Dancing Fire]

While I appreciate trade members input and want to extend a welcome to the new trade member posting here, I feel it is not fair to DF to pursue it further in this thread.
We will not be making it public at this time.
I am working on a post and PS admin approval for a thread on the subject sometime after the weekend and we can all debate and discuss it if they approve then.

I'm just waiting for more pics...