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Tempted by an EGL stone...

AllieLuv83

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And really it can't be IMPOSSIBLE to find a nice looking EGL stone right?
 

slg47

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Dreamer_D|1326742717|3104404 said:
Allie I know EGL is tempting because of the price point but it really does not save you anything :blackeye: Vendors are savvy and they know where they should send a diamond.

Vendor has diamond X and needs to decide where to send it, GIA or EGL? He knows roughly what the diamonds' specs are in color and clarity and cut before he makes this choice, his experience allows him to "pregrade". And so he will send it to the lab that will get him the most money on the market. If he thinks the stone will get dinged by GIA at important cut points for value -- Good cut, color below J or K, Clarity below SI1 -- then he will send it to EGL. And even though EGL trades lower than GIA *for the same specs*, diamond X will still cost MORE with an EGL report than it would with a GIA report. Consumers don't know this and end up getting hosed. So the reason I do not recommend EGL is because as a consumer you cannot beat a diamond vendor at his own game. We cannot "adjust" EGL specs to find out what the stone would cost with a GIA report. But you should assume that a diamond with an EGL report simply costs more than its true comps with GIA or AGS reports. Why assume that? Because if the diamond would have cost more with a GIA report, the vendor would have sent it to GIA to begin with!

So, you want a larger RB, don't mine J color. I assume you also do not mind SI2 clarity? And you want as close to 1.5ct as you can get, right? What is your budget?

q...do low color stones usually get sent to EGL vs GIA? what if someone is looking for L/M/N/etc?

also to the OP...what about this one?
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.520-l-si2-round-diamond-gia-33299528
 

AllieLuv83

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That one looks nice...Off to see if it is eye clean!
 

Christina...

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AllieLuv83|1326743331|3104410 said:
I don't mind SI1 or SI2 as long as it is eye clean. I simply would not be able to touch GIA in my price point. Between $5500-$6500.


I think your still not understanding exactly what Dreamer is trying to say. Basically if you find a J SI2 EGL stone for $6000, then you can also find a K L I1 GIA stone for $6000. There is not going to be a difference between these two stones. The EGL is going to look exactly like the GIA but have softer grading on the report. Just because EGL says it's a J doesn't really make it a J. In the end your EGL stone is going to have less value than the GIA.

If your looking for more finger coverage, have you considered adding sidestones to your current ring or a halo? It's by far the least expensive alternative to making your current ring look larger?
 

AllieLuv83

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I am indeed understanding what she is saying! I am sorry if I was unclear in my post. I meant that I would not be able to get the same size in a GIA. But thank you for trying to clarify.

I understand that a EGL J is not really a J and that and SI1 is not really an SI1. But I am also understanding that is it possible to find an SI1 which might really be and SI2 and be eye clean, it will just take some leg work.
 

Dreamer_D

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AllieLuv83|1326743585|3104415 said:
And really it can't be IMPOSSIBLE to find a nice looking EGL stone right?

That is not my point :)) My point is you are overpaying with EGL -- the same diamond with a GIA report would likely cost you less. Better to use your money for a GIA stone so you know you get good value, rather than pay EGL for illusion ::)
 

LibbyLA

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But you won't really know what color or clarity you are getting with the EGL-graded diamond, just the size. I faced the same choice you are facing and ultimately decided to go with an eye clean J SI2 with a GIA report because I knew what I'd be getting and if I ever have to sell it, the GIA report means something. I just couldn't be sure that if I chose an EGL-graded diamond with (for example) H color and VS2 clarity that it wouldn't be J or K or L color and SI3 or I1 clarity.

Have you looked at GIA-graded diamonds that are a grade or two lower in color and clarity than the EGL one to see if you might be able to get something in a comparable size?

liz
 

Dreamer_D

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Christina...|1326746172|3104450 said:
AllieLuv83|1326743331|3104410 said:
I don't mind SI1 or SI2 as long as it is eye clean. I simply would not be able to touch GIA in my price point. Between $5500-$6500.


I think your still not understanding exactly what Dreamer is trying to say. Basically if you find a J SI2 EGL stone for $6000, then you can also find a K L I1 GIA stone for $6000. There is not going to be a difference between these two stones. The EGL is going to look exactly like the GIA but have softer grading on the report. Just because EGL says it's a J doesn't really make it a J. In the end your EGL stone is going to have less value than the GIA.

A good analogy but in fact the GIA equivalent would cost LESS not the same! EGL would not thrive if the stones cost the same if sent to GIA, because GIA is more marketable.

allie The issue is not can you find a nice EGL SI1. The issue is that even if you do, you pay too much. Better to find a nice honest GIA Si2 or I1 even. ETA: And you can afford GIA -- lower the specs on color and clarity for the ct. weight you wanr until you hit GIA stones that are the same price as the EGL you are cobsidering. THOSE are the true comps. Use dollar value to determine the "true" color and clarity of the EGL stone you are considering, not a "add two color grades" rule of thumb.

ETA2: You not only need to account for color and clarity, you need to account for cut too. EGL uses different methods for cut grades and they are not as reliable. So there is lack of surety there too.

From my looking, you can perhaps get a GIA Ex 1.4ct K Si2 for $6000. So any EGL stones you find that are in that size range and well cut, assume they are K/L and SI2 or I1 clarity.
 

AllieLuv83

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So an EGL H, VS2 might be a L I1?
 

Dreamer_D

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If those two cost the same, do they? You have to factor in cut grade too. Other than carat weight, diamonds can vary in color, clarity, and cut grade (remember your RB does not have a cut grade, but most curretn GIA lab reports grade cut quality too). All three of those determine value and all three will potentially explain why a stone is sent to EGL. A diamond may only get a "good" for cut from GIA but an Excellent (or whatever) from EGL and that is also a reason to send a stone to EGL. So an H VS2 EGL with Ex cut grade may be a J Si1 with Good cut from GIA, it is hard/impossible for us to make the correct transformation, which is why buying from EGL us sych a crap shoot for us consumers. A good appraiser can help you.

There are some categories where the comparison between EGL and GIA and stating that the former is weaker than the latter does not hold true. There are fancy rounds that do not get sent ot GIA because GIA does not have a cut label for them and would just lump them in with modern RBs and grade their cut as Fair. OECs are like this, they often get misgraded as modern RBs with "Fair" cut. Jon told me at one point that his AVR line got labeled at modern RBs by GIA with Good cut! So he chose to send them to AGS who correctly labeled them as OECs. That Daussi brilliant is a modified cut, see how it has more arrows than a normal RB? So it may have been sent to EGL because they feared, or experienced, that GIA would unfairly ding their cut on the cut quality grade.

There is variance, of course. On average accross all diamonds, you win with GIA every time. But there will be rare cases where you do get better value with an EGL stone. You can try to "beat the system", but it is a well tested system and diamond vendors are experts, so it is hard to do for a consumer.
 

Dreamer_D

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slg47|1326743961|3104419 said:
Dreamer_D|1326742717|3104404 said:
Allie I know EGL is tempting because of the price point but it really does not save you anything :blackeye: Vendors are savvy and they know where they should send a diamond.

Vendor has diamond X and needs to decide where to send it, GIA or EGL? He knows roughly what the diamonds' specs are in color and clarity and cut before he makes this choice, his experience allows him to "pregrade". And so he will send it to the lab that will get him the most money on the market. If he thinks the stone will get dinged by GIA at important cut points for value -- Good cut, color below J or K, Clarity below SI1 -- then he will send it to EGL. And even though EGL trades lower than GIA *for the same specs*, diamond X will still cost MORE with an EGL report than it would with a GIA report. Consumers don't know this and end up getting hosed. So the reason I do not recommend EGL is because as a consumer you cannot beat a diamond vendor at his own game. We cannot "adjust" EGL specs to find out what the stone would cost with a GIA report. But you should assume that a diamond with an EGL report simply costs more than its true comps with GIA or AGS reports. Why assume that? Because if the diamond would have cost more with a GIA report, the vendor would have sent it to GIA to begin with!

So, you want a larger RB, don't mine J color. I assume you also do not mind SI2 clarity? And you want as close to 1.5ct as you can get, right? What is your budget?

q...do low color stones usually get sent to EGL vs GIA? what if someone is looking for L/M/N/etc?

I don't know but that is a really good question! The fact is there are very few cutters who even cut ideal RBs or well cut RBs out of lower colored rough. Infinity does, and it seems BGD has started offering K-L color diamonds now too. We know GOG offers K and lower in their AVC and AVR lines. Really well cut RBs tend to be sent to GIA and AGS as a matter of course, because if they take the time to cut it to perfection they want top dollar and only get that with a GIA or AGS lab report. As I mentioned above, cut grade is a big factor in why stones get sent to EGL, as big as color and clarity, but we overlook it a lot here I think. The way EGL measures and reports the peroportions is different than GIA or AGS and less precise and less accurate I have read here on PS.

A lot of the lowere colored rough ends up at mass production cutting houses I think, and ends up with no lab report, or with IGI or similar. But your intuition that lower colored rough would be cut and sent to EGL makes sense, but likely the decision-making algorythm is too complex for us to figure out :cheeky:

DBL carries a lot of lower colored RBs now that I think of it, but I don't know if they have GIA reports, if David sends them to GIA or if he sources stones with GIA reports, and I don't know if they have GIA EX cut grades or not. I am sure David will see this post and come tell us ;))
 

shimmer

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AllieLuv83

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How does the HCA fit into this. I must have looked at like 20 reports today. Only 2-3 reports came up with HCA numbers below 1.5.
 

AllieLuv83

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P.S. I am having a really hard time communicating with this vendor. I understand they might be busy but what is an appropriate amount of time to answer an email?
 

Dreamer_D

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AllieLuv83|1326749703|3104509 said:
P.S. I am having a really hard time communicating with this vendor. I understand they might be busy but what is an appropriate amount of time to answer an email?

24-48 hours? 8) I could call if it is more pressing.
 

Dreamer_D

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shimmer|1326749426|3104504 said:
Check out the last stone on this page. It has an EGL cert and GIA cert. EGL is I VS2 and GIA K SI1. I saw and EGL H last week that was slightly more tinted than a GIA J of the same size, so it would likely be a GIA K.

http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com/loose_antique_and_estate_diamonds

Nice example! There is another great thread with examples, let me see if I can find it. ETA: Here is it
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-vs-egl-usa-vs-egl-international-which-is-the-best-deal.162154/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-vs-egl-usa-vs-egl-international-which-is-the-best-deal.162154/[/URL]

ETA2:

And excerpt, showing how you pay MORE for the EGL report than for the same stone with a GIA report:

"As a GIA graduate gemologist and Diamond buyer for my family business, we recently sent in the same diamond to each of the three major Labs sold online. Below are the results for the same "Certified" Diamond sent to all three Labs...

EGL International Ideal 1.50ct G VS2 + XXX, average market price $10500, Rapaport $10,500 per carat

EGL USA Ideal + 1.50 I VS2 XXX, average market price $9400, Rapaport $7800 per carat

GIA 1.50ct K SI1 with Very Good cut, symmetry and polish, average market value $6250, Rapaport $5200 per carat"
 

Dreamer_D

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AllieLuv83|1326749621|3104508 said:
How does the HCA fit into this. I must have looked at like 20 reports today. Only 2-3 reports came up with HCA numbers below 1.5.

It is one tool to help select a really well cut stone. Only really useful if you are trying to differentiate between GIA Ex cuts that would also meet AGS0 standards and those that won't. Hardly and GIA VG cuts will score less than two. It will weed out a very specific portion of the well cut stones. It might exclude stones you would otherwise consider. I think GIA Ex for cut grade is a goood selection criteria for you. OR since you want to stretch the dollar, look for GIA VG cuts that were graded as such because their polish or symmetry are only VG, but they have an HCA under 2. That is a better way of cheating the system :))
 

AllieLuv83

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Should I even bother running EGL reports on the HCA?
 

Dreamer_D

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You can I guess. But the results are not super accurate.
 

AllieLuv83

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Well I am done...my head is spinning. I am stepping away from looking for a diamond for now.
 

Rockdiamond

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Hi All!
Allie- here's my take on EGL and how it affects you as a buyer.

EGL is basically a license for a seller to misrepresent the color and clarity of a diamond.
They don't have to take this license- to avoid it all they need to do is educate their shoppers on the disparity between GIA ( or AGSL) and ALL OTHER grades.

If a seller is not telling the truth about this one, very vital aspect, why should we believe anything else they're saying?


Why submit stones to EGL at all?
Or
What type of stones are submitted to EGL?

I do love stones in the K-L-M-N range.
My own personal feeling is that a GIA report is well worth the expense.

But if were considering 1ct stones that are less than about $3500, the report is more "optional" if it's being offered by a good, trustworthy seller.
Anytime I see "better" stones with non GIA or AGSL reports, it raises all kinds of red flags. Basically, all the concerns about this revolve around sellers trying to deceive buyers.

Any chart giving a system for calculating the grade based on the EGL grade is a complete gamble.
We have examples of stones with EGL color grades that are more than 5 color grades off the accurate GIA grade.
 

Christina...

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AllieLuv83|1326753203|3104569 said:
Well I am done...my head is spinning. I am stepping away from looking for a diamond for now.
:(sad Sorry Allie! We weren't trying to discourage you, only help you make an informed decision and get the most from your hard earned money. You can certainly purchase any stone that you want, and who knows you may get lucky and this stone could be all that you wanted and more, it's just that experience here has shown otherwise. That said, people have been buying EGL stones at B&M's for years and are very happy with their purchases, so I guess it comes down to what is most important to you. I hope that you decide to come back to the thread when you've had time to refresh, it's amazing what PSers can find on a budget, and they truly enjoy the challenge. So all hope isn't lost, it's just like you said, a lot of looking and weeding out the bad.

You might consider ebay or craigslist, and the pricescope preloved forum too, you can often times get a great deal on a pre loved stone!
 

Dreamer_D

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I think the cold hard fact -- that makes us all cry at night -- is that one cannot get a 1.4ct diamond for much less than 8 - 10k these days, not one of any quality or of traditionally desired color/clarity, on the primary market. Trying to stretch a budget too far means too much compromise. I think your best bet is either halo your current diamond or add sidestones for a more bling look -- trust me, both of these options will give more bang than going up to a 7.4mm diamond, I have been there and know!! -- or look on the secondary market, scary as that is.
 

Dreamer_D

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Christina...|1326756934|3104612 said:
AllieLuv83|1326753203|3104569 said:
Well I am done...my head is spinning. I am stepping away from looking for a diamond for now.
:(sad Sorry Allie! We weren't trying to discourage you, only help you make an informed decision and get the most from your hard earned money. You can certainly purchase any stone that you want, and who knows you may get lucky and this stone could be all that you wanted and more, it's just that experience here has shown otherwise. That said, people have been buying EGL stones at B&M's for years and are very happy with their purchases, so I guess it comes down to what is most important to you. I hope that you decide to come back to the thread when you've had time to refresh, it's amazing what PSers can find on a budget, and they truly enjoy the challenge. So all hope isn't lost, it's just like you said, a lot of looking and weeding out the bad.

You might consider ebay or craigslist, and the pricescope preloved forum too, you can often times get a great deal on a pre loved stone!
Yes, at the end of the day if you decide and EGL stone is the way to get what you want -- and goodness knows buying a diamond is not all dollars and cents, we do all sorts of things for "mind clean" reasons too -- then go into it with eyes open and find a good one for yourself!
 

donnabrsd

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I have an EGL USA G VS2 graded diamond and am very happy with it (I have had it for just over a year). I purchased it from a B&M where I previously purchased jewelry and have trust in my jeweler. I picked my diamond from 5 he showed me. It was the only EGL. All others were GIA G VS1 or VS2. All were 2.25ct. to 3ct. I viewed the diamonds not knowing grade, lab, or price.

I was not going to change my mind on my favorite diamond because of the lab where it was graded. I do know that EGL are known to grade different than GIA and that pricing should reflect this. I do not ever intend to sell my diamond. If I did, I may have preferred a GIA certificate. If I want to upgrade, my same jeweler will give me what I paid in trade.

I am new to PS and do not really like to post (yet). I just felt that I wanted to let you know that I am happy with my EGL diamond and that you should see a diamond in person to see if it is the right one for you.

Do not rush into a purchase, make it a happy experience so in the end you are happy!


Another thing... my original 1.3ct diamond that I got 15ish years ago has NO certificate. I still love that diamond. My jeweler is now looking for a match to make me new earrings.


I did also look at about 35 other diamonds in my size range at other B&M stores to see what was out there. I looked online too, but feel that is not for me with a diamond purchase.
 

Dreamer_D

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I just want to clarify that my comments about the issues for consumers buying from EGL are completely *independent* from the love a person can have for a diamond with an EGL report, or not report at all :)) There are doubtless many many diamonds with EGL reports, and no reports at all, that are beautiful as well. I happen to own one such beautiful and loved EGL diamond, bought with no report at all ;)) But I also think consumers need to go into purchases with their eyes open so they know how the diamond market works and can make an informed decision about their money, so they can love their diamond AND know that they paid a fair price for it.
 

Karl_K

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Another option is to see if the seller will send it to an appraiser.
I would suggest Jeff, Dave A. or Neil who post on PS.
Once you know the GIA equivalent grade and have an impartial 3rd party opinion you can go from there.
Cost? appraisal fee and shipping.
If the appraiser gives it a thumbs up and you are satisfied with the grade, it is sent to you.
If not then it is returned to the seller.
 

AllieLuv83

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Thank you for all of your help. I am still waiting to hear from the vendor. I really hate slow communication! :)
 
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