shape
carat
color
clarity

Should I buy an Ideal-Scope or ASET?

LegacyJoe

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
14
I''m new to PriceScope and have loved the forum -- great topics and info!
36.gif
" align=absMiddle src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/36.gif">

I''m in the market now for a 2 carat princess so the price of the IS or ASET is small compared to the potential benefit of getting a better cut stone. I''ve read time and again how the ASET is the preferred tool for fancy cuts. The problem I see is that in nearly every post showing an ASET image there are significant disputes -- mostly about the image itself. These are almost always taken by professionals with presumably some experience using an ASET.

In addition to the troubles getting an accurate image, there seems to be disputes interpreting what is seen. I can''t remember seeing consensus about any ASET image.

Sooooo, if the professionals have difficulty getting a good ASET image, and even when they have an image can''t fully agree n what it means, is it reasonable for a new guy to try to get the benefit of this tool.
33.gif
" align=absMiddle src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/33.gif"> After looking at the demos and instructions, it seems possible to get some good info from the ASET. But looking at real life stones and threads here at PS, I have my serious doubts.

The IS seems easier to use and there seems to be more agreeement about interpreting the results. I know people prefer the ASET for princess cuts, but if the experts can''t agree on the results, am I really going to learn something from it, or more likely get some misinformation because I wasn''t holding the stone correctly or some other newbie error?

I love learning, pride myself on picking up new skills, and am willing to put in a fair amount of time to figure this out. But even so, should I buy an ASET, an IS, both, or neither and let the experts haggle over the images?

Thanks for your ideas!
35.gif
" align=absMiddle src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/35.gif">
 

LegacyJoe

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
14
OK, thanks. Are you saying that everyone agrees on the interpretation of ASET images?

And yes I saw that excellent description of why ASET is preferred to IS for evaluating fancy cuts. But how long does it take to become proficient at using ASET?

Thanks!
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
25,534
Using the ASET, about five minutes.


The best option is to ask your jeweller for a tray with several princesses, some well cut and some not so, and take your ASET in and play with some real stones for a whilst - see how aset image correlates to real-life performance in various lights, from various angles
 

Mashira

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
501
Thank you for asking this question! I actually asked the same one yesterday, but not so eloquently.
3.gif

That link is great Yssie and will really help me!
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
9,292
Date: 7/1/2010 4:11:24 PM
Author: yssie
No argument about interpreting ASET results - everyone agrees.


ASET much preferred for fancy shapes (like princess): https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-we-prefer-aset-to-ideal-scope-with-fancy-shapes.73949/

Actually, this is not true- besides the difficulty in taking these photos consistently, there's also disagreement among seasoned tradespeople on interpreting the images- and even as to whether the photos are useful at all.
In terms of usage- personally I don't like anything other than a jewelers loupe between my eye, and the diamond
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
25,534
Date: 7/1/2010 5:15:14 PM
Author: Rockdiamond







Date: 7/1/2010 4:11:24 PM
Author: yssie
No argument about interpreting ASET results - everyone agrees.


ASET much preferred for fancy shapes (like princess): https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-we-prefer-aset-to-ideal-scope-with-fancy-shapes.73949/

Actually, this is not true- besides the difficulty in taking these photos consistently, there's also disagreement among seasoned tradespeople on interpreting the images- and even as to whether the photos are useful at all.
In terms of usage- personally I don't like anything other than a jewelers loupe between my eye, and the diamond
David - Everyone agrees on how the ASET works - and in that context, what the colours you see through the scope mean. Direct interpretation of 0-45d, 45-75d, 75-90d, why the ASET is only useful at the exact angle the picture is taken, understanding camera requirements, lighting requirements, pros and cons of various imaging techniques, post-imaging manipulations - these things I certainly believe people agree on.

The issues come up when people start categorizing different pictures as "best, second, third", and person A may prefer a different look or type of performance than person B. But what the ASET means, directly, as it depends on how the ASET works - there's no complexity to that.

I apologise for not making that clear in my original statement.
 

Mashira

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
501
I agree yssie, that there are different interpretations and preferences by which we may classify a stone ''best'', ''second best'' etc...
I may be wrong, but in the context of this question, the difficulty of taking photos is not valid. Because both LegacyJoe and I will be
using the ASET to view stones and use our own interpretation and preferances, there won''t be a need for getting a perfect photo, only
understanding what the colors mean, and what we think of the cut based on that.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
9,292
Mashira- of course if you''re looking at diamonds, and want to use it to judge for yourself, by all means, get one, and do it.

yssie- total due respect- but I meant exactly what I wrote, in the context you mention.
Not everyone agrees on the use and meaning of Aset or ASSET, as used by AGSL.
Here on PS, it is certainly a tool of preference- however there are many other connoisseurs, dealers, cutters of diamonds that use other methods. These are people who are not active on internet forums.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
25,534
David - I'm an interested consumer, if there's something I'm missing please elaborate as I'm here to learn.



Referring specifically to the handheld ASET scope, I fail to see how a cylinder with coloured stripes at different heights can indicate anything more or less than

-light reflected off green stripe and onto stone, and from stone and back to viewer = light incident (from environment) at 0-45d onto stone, and from stone back to viewer
-light reflected off red stripe and onto stone, and from stone and back to viewer = light incident (from environment) at 45-75d onto stone, and from stone back to viewer
-light reflected off blue stripe and onto stone, and from stone and back to viewer = light incident (from environment) at 75-90d onto stone, and from stone back to viewer
-white or black (or purple, if you have purple background/backlight) = no light incident from environment refracted from these areas

(Known) assumptions:
A) the bottom of the scope is positioned at 0d (ie. horizontal, at the plane of the girdle)
B) the camera used is in focus on the stone, so there is no colour blurring as photography artifacts
C) no post-photography image manipulations were used to alter the photograph

(Unknown) assumption, but we know there is an assumption:
If the stone is backlit, visible results of tertiary refractions will differ from in an un-backlit setup.


I concur that what that photograph depicts is up for subjective interpretation, and there is no doubt much room for disagreement here.

ETA: I also concur (and always have) that an expert's pair of eyes are the best judge of all...
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
33,852
Date: 7/1/2010 8:02:08 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Mashira- of course if you''re looking at diamonds, and want to use it to judge for yourself, by all means, get one, and do it.

yssie- total due respect- but I meant exactly what I wrote, in the context you mention.
Not everyone agrees on the use and meaning of Aset or ASSET, as used by AGSL.
Here on PS, it is certainly a tool of preference- however there are many other connoisseurs, dealers, cutters of diamonds that use other methods. These are people who are not active on internet forums.
RD
you need to buy a bigger shot glass for your next birthday party. the ASET will hold 1.5 shot of booze.
9.gif
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
9,292
yssie, I thank you for the opportunity to discuss this!

First off, there's two conversations. One is: Consumers using the at a store- or wherever they are viewing the diamond.
As I've said- if someone wants to try the aset it can't hurt- as long as they understand that many places that sell extremely well cut diamonds do not use this device.
That only matters inasmuch as they should not be surprised of the seller is not an advocate of it's usage- and not to necessarily infer anything from that fact.
But if a consumer wants to use one, by all means do so- if a seller objects to the buyer examining the diamond with great scrutiny it's a major league red flag.

The other aspect is photography- and there, it's really not so clear cut. The "known assumptions" you are using are not known by any means.
A) Not all that easy to get the diamond exactly square to the camera. Especially not in a totally repeatable manner.
b) Even if we consider "normal" diamond photos, there are many solutions to the same problem of how to showcase a diamond with a camera.
There's no "standard" of how to take a photo of a diamond, much less a photo through an ASET. This means there will necessarily be different results on the same stone shot with different set-ups and photographers. Even the same stone, photographer and setup may not reproduce prior results exactly.
I'm sure you'll agree this is true about photos taken of anything.
A great photographer, to me, imparts the subject in a meaningful, yet accurate way- capturing it's essence.

There are certainly more clinical methods of photographing diamonds- but even these vary.

I agree that retouching is undesirable if the goal is accurate representation. There are other things that may need to be done to photos that are technically, manipulations, but necessary.
Things like cropping, and resizing.
But that's a world apart from adjusting colors, and "airbrushing"
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
25,534
Date: 7/1/2010 10:01:25 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I thank you for the opportunity to discuss this yssie!

First off, there's two conversations. One is: Consumers using the at a store- or wherever they are viewing the diamond.
As I've said- if someone wants to try the aset it can't hurt- as long as they understand that many places that sell extremely well cut diamonds do not use this device.
That only matters inasmuch as they should not be surprised of the seller is not an advocate of it's usage- and not to necessarily infer anything from that fact.
But if a consumer wants to use one, by all means do so- if a seller objects to the buyer examining the diamond with great scrutiny it's a major league red flag.

The other aspect is photography- and there, it's really not so clear cut. The 'known assumptions' you are using are not known by any means.
A) Not all that easy to get the diamond exactly square to the camera. Especially not in a totally repeatable manner.
b) Even if we consider 'normal' diamond photos, there are many solutions to the same problem of how to showcase a diamond with a camera.
There's no 'standard' of how to take a photo of a diamond, much less a photo through an ASET. This means there will necessarily be different results on the same stone shot with different set-ups and photographers. Even the same stone, photographer and setup may not reproduce prior results exactly.
I'm sure you'll agree this is true about photos taken of anything.
A great photographer, to me, imparts the subject in a meaningful, yet accurate way- capturing it's essence.

There are certainly more clinical methods of photographing diamonds- but even these vary.

I agree that retouching is undesirable if the goal is accurate representation. There are other things that may need to be done to photos that are technically, manipulations, but necessary.
Things like cropping, and resizing.
But that's a world apart from adjusting colors, and 'airbrushing'

And thank you for detailing David
1.gif



To your first point, I completely agree. As long as a consumer knows the uses and limitations of any given tool, and understands that what his/her eyes see should always take precedence in any comparisons, gadgets and gizmos and programmes can be both fun and helpful tools, and should be welcomed (obviously so long as one is not trying to steal/damage the stone). I think crucial to becoming a well-educated consumer is knowing where book-learning ends and street-smarts needs to kick in, and equally vital to being a successful vendor to the analytical consumer is being open to discussion about the science of performance.


To your second point - that the ASET is only valid from exactly the angle of photography and is a single-eyed view is one of the major limitations of this tool, and using any tool for purposes beyond what it was intended for will yield erroneous 'observations'. It may be impossible to exactly recreate the image of any one stone, my argument is that beyond a certain limit - or with enough comprehensive data - such precision is unnecessary - if a princess shows giant white areas at the corners of the table at say ~0d tilt, 10d, 30d [...] N/S/E/W (to combat the fact that stereo-vision will negate leakage only visible with one eye) I think we can safely conclude that the stone is not returning light incident from the environment in those regions at normal viewing angles, and we can move onto the next suitor, despite the impossibility of identically reproducing those results in an iteration. Also, in that line of thought, we may safely compare images from one vendor with one 'type' of ASET photography setup, as those variables are now consistent... I am very surprised to learn that there is no standard (or at least recommended) setup for ASET photography.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
25,534
Ex: H&A RBs from two popular vendors around here. Nice hearts, nice optical symmetry.

slightly diff ASET setups produce this difference, easily explained

ASETdiffrbsiii.jpg
 

ChunkyCushionLover

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,463
Date: 7/1/2010 6:30:06 PM
Author: Mashira
I agree yssie, that there are different interpretations and preferences by which we may classify a stone 'best', 'second best' etc...
I may be wrong, but in the context of this question, the difficulty of taking photos is not valid. Because both LegacyJoe and I will be
using the ASET to view stones and use our own interpretation and preferances, there won't be a need for getting a perfect photo, only
understanding what the colors mean, and what we think of the cut based on that.
1) ASET results aren't more difficult to interpret than idealscope just it provides greater information, you have three cones instead of one.

2) If you want to turn your ASET into a device as simple to intrepret as an Idealscope interpret all green and red as just IS red, all white as IS white, and blue and black as IS black.

I don't think IS is easier to use or to view. They are both the same if they can both be backlit and you line up the girdle plain paralell to the plain of the eyepiece lense properly in each.

3) We strive for perfectly taken images and interpretations of the images on this forum, this is rarely possible in the real world or across various lighting setups.
Let us not confuse arguments over some nuances in the images from the basic and highly utilized primary function of the device. Often times the nuances will interesting from an academic perspective will not change an overall comparison or buying decision.

The ASET provides a structured lighting environment with far less variables and much more consistancy than plain photography. In the cases of closed self backlit systems like the Desktop ASET the consistancy is excellent and the variation between setups is virtually nill.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
9,292
Date: 7/2/2010 1:47:13 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
Date: 7/1/2010 6:30:06 PM

Author: Mashira

I agree yssie, that there are different interpretations and preferences by which we may classify a stone ''best'', ''second best'' etc...

I may be wrong, but in the context of this question, the difficulty of taking photos is not valid. Because both LegacyJoe and I will be

using the ASET to view stones and use our own interpretation and preferances, there won''t be a need for getting a perfect photo, only

understanding what the colors mean, and what we think of the cut based on that.
1) ASET results aren''t more difficult to interpret than idealscope just it provides greater information, you have three cones instead of one.


2) If you want to turn your ASET into a device as simple to intrepret as an Idealscope interpret all green and red as just IS red, all white as IS white, and blue and black as IS black.


I don''t think IS is easier to use or to view. They are both the same if they can both be backlit and you line up the girdle plain paralell to the plain of the eyepiece lense properly in each.


3) We strive for perfectly taken images and interpretations of the images on this forum, this is rarely possible in the real world or across various lighting setups.

Let us not confuse arguments over some nuances in the images from the basic and highly utilized primary function of the device. Often times the nuances will interesting from an academic perspective will not change an overall comparison or buying decision.



The ASET provides a structured lighting environment with far less variables and much more consistancy than plain photography. In the cases of closed self backlit systems like the Desktop ASET the consistancy is excellent and the variation between setups is virtually nill.
I''ve spoken to people ( vendors) that have the desktop ASET and the impression I got was that it''s not great for taking photos.
If there was a consistent method, all vendors photos would look the same.
 

ChunkyCushionLover

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,463
Date: 7/2/2010 12:58:25 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


Date: 7/2/2010 1:47:13 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover


Date: 7/1/2010 6:30:06 PM

Author: Mashira

I agree yssie, that there are different interpretations and preferences by which we may classify a stone 'best', 'second best' etc...

I may be wrong, but in the context of this question, the difficulty of taking photos is not valid. Because both LegacyJoe and I will be

using the ASET to view stones and use our own interpretation and preferances, there won't be a need for getting a perfect photo, only

understanding what the colors mean, and what we think of the cut based on that.
1) ASET results aren't more difficult to interpret than idealscope just it provides greater information, you have three cones instead of one.


2) If you want to turn your ASET into a device as simple to intrepret as an Idealscope interpret all green and red as just IS red, all white as IS white, and blue and black as IS black.


I don't think IS is easier to use or to view. They are both the same if they can both be backlit and you line up the girdle plain paralell to the plain of the eyepiece lense properly in each.


3) We strive for perfectly taken images and interpretations of the images on this forum, this is rarely possible in the real world or across various lighting setups.

Let us not confuse arguments over some nuances in the images from the basic and highly utilized primary function of the device. Often times the nuances will interesting from an academic perspective will not change an overall comparison or buying decision.



The ASET provides a structured lighting environment with far less variables and much more consistancy than plain photography. In the cases of closed self backlit systems like the Desktop ASET the consistancy is excellent and the variation between setups is virtually nill.
I've spoken to people ( vendors) that have the desktop ASET and the impression I got was that it's not great for taking photos.
If there was a consistent method, all vendors photos would look the same.
It isn't without creating a custom attachment for a camera and possible removing/replacing the eyepice. The eyepiece aperture is small.
It sure is great for showing consumers live without a camera though.

But for me an ideal light, the new 25$ AGS back lit handheld ASET with detachable eyepiece removed for photographing and a cheap point and shoot will do just fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeUH-jf0lrY
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
9,292
Seems we''re in total agreement on this CCL.

There is NO current ASET camera setup available that works well enough to say there''s a "standard" for taking these photos.
ASSET, which is used by AGSL is a computer simulation- which certainly blunts it''s value as a comparison tool.
 

LegacyJoe

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
14
Thanks for the great discussion.

It seems that my take aways are:

1. Even a newbie can get good info from an ASET. After looking a a dozen or so princess cuts, I should be able to distinguish between cut grades.

2. For a princess cut, I really only need an ASET and not an Ideal-Scope, since the ASET will show more info.

3. Since I won''t be taking any photos, any difficulty in getting a good shot with an ASET can be evaluated by the pros later (and probably right here on this forum).

I also think that it makes sense to get the light tray too for easy comparison and lighting.

Do I have this right?

Thanks!
 

ChunkyCushionLover

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,463
Date: 7/2/2010 6:26:45 PM
Author: LegacyJoe
Thanks for the great discussion.

It seems that my take aways are:

1. Even a newbie can get good info from an ASET. After looking a a dozen or so princess cuts, I should be able to distinguish between cut grades.

2. For a princess cut, I really only need an ASET and not an Ideal-Scope, since the ASET will show more info.

3. Since I won''t be taking any photos, any difficulty in getting a good shot with an ASET can be evaluated by the pros later (and probably right here on this forum).

I also think that it makes sense to get the light tray too for easy comparison and lighting.

Do I have this right?

Thanks!
All correct if you want to use the tool correctly you should be able to.
You can tell a dud from a decent one which its purpose.

Good-Luck in your search.
 
 

ChunkyCushionLover

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,463
Date: 7/2/2010 2:50:40 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Seems we''re in total agreement on this CCL.

There is NO current ASET camera setup available that works well enough to say there''s a ''standard'' for taking these photos.
ASSET, which is used by AGSL is a computer simulation- which certainly blunts it''s value as a comparison tool.
I share very little agreement with you in this thread.

I don''t know what you mean by ASSET or what the second S is for. 
 
AGS developed the Angular Spectrum Evaluation Tool (ASET) for judging objectively the light return and brightness of a diamond based on where in the angular spectrum it derives its light.

After this they developed The PGS (performance based grading software) which includes within its cut grading score three categories (brightness, contrast, leakage) which use modified data sets based with very close correlation to the ASET image as simulated from scan data.

Simply because you haven''t put in enough effort to learn how to take ASET photographs without tilt, or to study the correlation between ASET results and real life apperance  doesn''t diminish its utility.

Nice try pretending the technical problems some have  with taking photographs with some setups blunts its value as a comparison tool it. A consumer can use this tool without taking a photograph and many vendors have very controlled and standardized setups to compare all of their diamonds in their in house inventory.

I am pleased to see  the OP in this thread wasn''t misled by your comments.
 
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top