Searching for Cushion by Ratio?
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MrsBettyBoop
Brilliant_Rock
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Cool. I didn''t know you could search by l/w ratio. The good thing about blue nile too is that you could get the information and see if another vendor could get you that diamond.
ChunkyCushionLover
Ideal_Rock
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Unless you plan on spending a lot of time, getting to know the cutters and vendors, searching for your own cushion from a virtual lists is an excercise in futility.
Take it from someone who did just that(I spent a few months searching), I learned it was a big waste of time as I developed high standards and ended up working with two reccomended PS vendors anyway(GOG and ERD). You won't save much money trying to use a drop shipper and doing it yourself, more than likely you will just get an inferior performing stone if you save at all.
Bluenile has a decent search as they provide certificates on all of their stones so you can at least tell what kind of facet structure the cushion has, but that tells you very little about the light return. You can check reports for Cushion Brilliant/Old Mine Brilliants even select LW=1 stones to select for certain types of cut like the modern 8 main, but other than that the reports don't tell you what you really need to know which is how well the stone performs. The experienced vendors know which cutting houses provide a certain type of cut like 8 main vintage or 8 main modern and have a better handle on what to ask the cutters.
You can get a good but not great stone this way, you would need to compare them with ASET images, but if you want a truly great cut and optimal light performance you would need to find a vendor that specializes in these or go with a branded line.
Take it from someone who did just that(I spent a few months searching), I learned it was a big waste of time as I developed high standards and ended up working with two reccomended PS vendors anyway(GOG and ERD). You won't save much money trying to use a drop shipper and doing it yourself, more than likely you will just get an inferior performing stone if you save at all.
Bluenile has a decent search as they provide certificates on all of their stones so you can at least tell what kind of facet structure the cushion has, but that tells you very little about the light return. You can check reports for Cushion Brilliant/Old Mine Brilliants even select LW=1 stones to select for certain types of cut like the modern 8 main, but other than that the reports don't tell you what you really need to know which is how well the stone performs. The experienced vendors know which cutting houses provide a certain type of cut like 8 main vintage or 8 main modern and have a better handle on what to ask the cutters.
You can get a good but not great stone this way, you would need to compare them with ASET images, but if you want a truly great cut and optimal light performance you would need to find a vendor that specializes in these or go with a branded line.
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J
Its going to be really difficult to find what you want that way, especially as they won''t provide images, I take it the vendors with in house stones don''t have what you want? If so it could pay to ask them to source you something especially as you want a large diamond.
jgny
Shiny_Rock
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Hi Charmy, Lorelei and CCL!
Tks for the heads-up on adiamor!
I've contacted the rec. vendors here and the challenge is that the size stone (4-5 ct) that I want isn't in my price range (~60) with the clarity I was looking at (G VS1).
So rather than peppering them with questions, I wanted to search and play around with color/clarity and see what it gets me. Was particularly inspired after I saw the recent 5 ct Leon J color cushion. And of course when I searched my usual sites I couldn't search by l/w and didn't want to wade thru anything over 1.05.
Not looking to make things hard for myself at all - it's frustrating b/c i *think* the right stone is out there but when it will pop up, I don't know. As I understand it, there are only 2 (wholesale) cutters who supply the vintage look that I want. I've considered broadening my search to include vintage/antique stones but most of the time they are set and I can't evaluate them out of the setting.
I have a feeling this may be a long journey.
Tks for the heads-up on adiamor!
I've contacted the rec. vendors here and the challenge is that the size stone (4-5 ct) that I want isn't in my price range (~60) with the clarity I was looking at (G VS1).
Not looking to make things hard for myself at all - it's frustrating b/c i *think* the right stone is out there but when it will pop up, I don't know. As I understand it, there are only 2 (wholesale) cutters who supply the vintage look that I want. I've considered broadening my search to include vintage/antique stones but most of the time they are set and I can't evaluate them out of the setting.
I have a feeling this may be a long journey.
ChunkyCushionLover
Ideal_Rock
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Jgny,Date: 4/17/2010 8:59:10 AM
Author: jgny
Hi Charmy, Lorelei and CCL!
Tks for the heads-up on adiamor!
I''ve contacted the rec. vendors here and the challenge is that the size stone (4-5 ct) that I want isn''t in my price range (~60) with the clarity I was looking at (G VS1).So rather than peppering them with questions, I wanted to search and play around with color/clarity and see what it gets me. Was particularly inspired after I saw the recent 5 ct Leon J color cushion. And of course when I searched my usual sites I couldn''t search by l/w and didn''t want to wade thru anything over 1.05.
Not looking to make things hard for myself at all - it''s frustrating b/c i *think* the right stone is out there but when it will pop up, I don''t know. As I understand it, there are only 2 (wholesale) cutters who supply the vintage look that I want. I''ve considered broadening my search to include vintage/antique stones but most of the time they are set and I can''t evaluate them out of the setting.
I have a feeling this may be a long journey.
You are a dream customer for most vendors as you will be spending 60k! Do not be concerned at all about telling any and all vendors what your preferences and budget are and having them work for you!
If you have seen my cushion guide I would ask Jon at GOG, Mark at ERD, Bob at WF to find you stones with your preferences. However I would not restrict yourself to high clarity like VS1 this will severely limit your choices in that size. Eye Clean is Eye Clean and you might get away with as low as SI1 or VS2.
If you are considering Antique stones its going to be even more impossible to find things online you really have to get out there and view them in person as each one will be unique. You could however ask some vendors like Adam at OldWorldDiamonds, Erica or Grace at JewelsByEricaGrace, Singlestone jewelers etc. High colors with near square LW ratios are going to be difficult to find but you never know if you tell each one of them your preferences they might come up with something.
Also you may have to live with the reality that in 4 - 5 ct stones the standard for judging light return will be different. In that size even relatively small virtual facets are LARGE which makes even what we would call "crushed ice" in 1 -2 ct stone will look gorgeous in a stone that large. Often the optimal cut design can change and more facets is not a bad thing in stones that size, in addition careful attention to rough weight retention is crucial in stones of that size so you will almost never see as optimized a design as in the lower weights.
Good-Luck,
CCL
jgny
Shiny_Rock
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CCL - I have your cushion guide bookmarked! I refer to it almost daily (I am not kidding!)
Can you explain your last sentence "addition careful attention to rough weight retention is crucial in stones of that size so you will almost never see as optimized a design as in the lower weights" - I read it a couple of times and maybe it''s a long day but I''m not sure I totally understand it... do you mean larger sizes are more cut for weight than for beauty?
What has been bothering me about the cushions I''ve seen - the light loss versus that of a RB.
First, the culet, and how it reflects in all the different facets. I love the deep flashes of a old mine cut but the reflection of the culet (especially when they are large) creates these little black holes where light does not reflect back.
Also, sometimes I see a slight donut in these stones, for example this (non AVC) cushion from GOG:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5723/
the DiamXray shows a donut like light leakage. I''ve been told that some light leakage will happen in a cushion b/c it''s the nature of it and also the reflection of the culets.
Can you explain your last sentence "addition careful attention to rough weight retention is crucial in stones of that size so you will almost never see as optimized a design as in the lower weights" - I read it a couple of times and maybe it''s a long day but I''m not sure I totally understand it... do you mean larger sizes are more cut for weight than for beauty?
What has been bothering me about the cushions I''ve seen - the light loss versus that of a RB.
First, the culet, and how it reflects in all the different facets. I love the deep flashes of a old mine cut but the reflection of the culet (especially when they are large) creates these little black holes where light does not reflect back.
Also, sometimes I see a slight donut in these stones, for example this (non AVC) cushion from GOG:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5723/
the DiamXray shows a donut like light leakage. I''ve been told that some light leakage will happen in a cushion b/c it''s the nature of it and also the reflection of the culets.
ChunkyCushionLover
Ideal_Rock
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In 4 - 5 carat stones it makes no sense for a cutter to lose weight just to try to optimize the light return unless its selected for a branded line like the AVC. The commerical balance of lightreturn/weight which dictates the cutting stratgey would favour weight retention, the rough is so expensive losing 0.25ct of final diamond weight is thousands of dollars.
Keep in mind that the PS community is a relatively small one and we are fanatical about cut whereas the average person looking to spend 60k on a diamond will not be nearly as selective nor even aware of how much of a difference a great versus good cut can make.
Charmy's suggestion of contacting Jon at GOG is a good one for several reasons:
1) Your best bet for top optics and the easiest search within the 8 main vintage style will be getting an AVC cut for you. You can request a medium or slightly large culet(donut) if you don't like the look of large ones.
2) At the very least you will realize what is realistic within your budget for any 8 main vintage cushion. Just from a rough search I'd say a 4ct H SI1 or G SI1 may be an optimistic view of what you might be able to get. Jon would know this much better, he would have to take the risk of having such a valuable stone cut and give you a price estimate.
3) If you don't find the size or color is acceptable Jon can also find you potentials from other cutting houses. The tradeoff will be likely a bigger size but not cut to strict proportions for optimal light return.
4) I prefer Jon over other vendors as he can make videos, you can always compare whatever he calls in to the 4 carat August Vintage in inventory so you understand the difference cut makes.
That being said you should get a feel for prices by asking ERD or WF what stone would fit your budget and most closely your preferences. This information will be useful for knowing if you are getting the most competitive price and for negotiation purposes as they may offer you the same virtual stone at different prices and all three have a price match policy.
Ultimately you will have to make tradeoffs and since you are trying to squeeze the largest size you can afford its definitely not worth paying for high clarity which you won't be able to see this any better than an eye clean SI1. With color I'd say its more important at this size and cut warmth is much more readily seen.
On the topic of an 8 main Cushion Brilliant versus Round Briiliant , they are quite different, I would say an CB can outperform an RB in candlelight and in low lighting, whereas in your bright office lighting few fancy shapes can compete with the brightness of a modern RB. For this sort of comparison it would be best to go to somewhere like Harry Winston and take a look at both side by side in different lighting. You can also take a look at this video towards the end for a comparison http://www.vimeo.com/5219738.
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This is often the case particularly with the heavier weight diamonds of any shape, the priority of the cutter is to plan to get the maximum amount of finished stone out of the rough, cutting for the best optical performance can shave off considerable weight and have a major impact on profit.
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