shape
carat
color
clarity

Sat Shopping Update - No cert on estate ring and HoF setting update

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

Loves Vintage

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
4,568
I posted here a few days ago re: two rings that I liked. The first was an estate ring that I was told contained a .95 carat, F, VSI2, ideal cut. It was the first ring I saw and I fell in love with it. It was very sparkly, and I loved that it was a handmade setting. So nice. On Friday, we went shopping and looked at many different diamonds and concluded that we want an ideal cut, E or F stone,preferably VS1 or VS2. On Saturday, we went back to the shop with the estate ring. It was still a very lovely ring, but I was less sure about it. I asked repeatedly whether it was an ideal cut and whether there was a certificate. I was told that there was not a certificate, and that they didn''t want to get one because they would have to take the diamond out of the setting (big deal, right?) and send it to the lab and it could take 5 weeks to get results, plus it would be too expensive to get one for an estate piece. I heard someone in the back saying that it''s an estate piece, and it must be bought as is.

Some other woman came out and said she didn''t think it was an ideal cut because they just started classifying ideal cuts two years ago. I know that the first woman I spoke with told me it was an ideal cut, so I was thinking maybe even though they were not classified as such, they still could have been cut to those proportions. In any event, I asked the second woman whether she ever bought a diamond without a certificate, and she smugly said that her engagement ring did not have a cert!!! At this point, I was very annoyed. They kept saying it was an estate piece and there was not a lot of room for profit!!!
29.gif
What? I told her that I did not care what profit they were making on the ring, and that they should have had it certified and priced accordingly.

The owner came out, looked at the diamond under a scope and said it was not an ideal cut. He showed me what to look for, and why this clearly was not an ideal cut. Ok, that decision was made much easier for me. I thanked him for explaining and we left.

I don''t know. Perhaps I was wrong for insisting on a cert on an estate ring? From what I''ve read here, I didn''t think it was. I think the first saleswoman was fairly new and didn''t know what she was talking about. I don''t think they tried to misrepresent the stone as being an ideal cut.

RE: HoF
The jeweler from Friday called on Saturday to say they could put a non-HoF diamond in the Felicity HoF setting, which is great. He also said they''d take $500 more off of the 1.01 E VS1 almost ideal cut - bringing it down to 9,500, which is still quite a bit more than the same (but ideal cut) at Whiteflash. DBF says the Whiteflash setting is not as nice as the HoF setting and that we should just go through the jeweler, get Felicity with an HoF diamond, which I believe would be around 13k for a G, SI1, 1.08. They said the HoF diamonds in G appear whiter than a non-HoF G because of the cut. Uggh. Then add in my new desire for a 1.25, even though I was always a 1 carat girl.

And, to top it all off, I really sincerely believe that anything over 10k is just too much for a ring. So, I think I need to figure out how to get a whiteflash diamond in the Felicity setting . . . .

If you made it this far, sorry for rambling so much . . . .
 

mrssalvo

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Messages
19,132
actually it''s very common for estate rings and pieces to not have certs. what the jewelers were telling you is true. it is not cheap to send them away for certs and old cuts are not ideally cuts according to the PS definition so they wouldn''t do well even with a cert. most folks buy an estate ring based on beauty and if it speaks to them not the paper. you can easily have the ring checked out by an independant appraiser that can verify what the store is telling you it is. Many folks don''t like removing old stones from their settings b/c it can cause damage to the setting or messes with the integrity of the ring and they just don''t want to risk it.

HOF makes lovely settings and are beautiful stones. you just have to decide if the price premium is worth it to you, for some it definitely is, for others it''s not. sounds like a bigger stone is more important so I''d probably go that route
2.gif
 

Sparkalicious

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
3,721
No problem! Thanks for the update ...

Believe it or not, what you are experiencing helps me to feel as though I am more sane. I have been going through the very same roller coaster. I too started out being a "one carat" girl but somewhere along the way, unbeknowst to me, I upgraded and 1 carat just will not do anymore.
9.gif


If I can offer some advice to assist with overcoming some of your frustration and confusion
33.gif
, decide what you want - what do you absolutely have to have, as a minimum and what is negotiable ... Once you figure out these things, everything seems to fall more into place. This way you tell people what you would like and they are either able to fulfill your request or not instead of providing you with their biased retail opinions.

I found that once I started speaking from a more enlightened or educated perspective, those l was/am looking to buy from met me at the same level instead of selling me their story. Believe me, everyone's got one about why their stuff is the best.

Go crazy! Take a look at everything you like, compare prices and then make a decision and stick to it and see who will get you the best price for what you want. By the way, I don't envy your position, the more you look, the more you like.
30.gif
and the harder it is to stay within budget.
22.gif


Keep us updated ...

** Update ** Just found this for you on Whiteflash ...
In my opinion, if you are willing to pay $9500 for an "almost" ideal cut, you should just go ahead and get an "ideal", ideal cut even if it is just a little bit more ... I found this for you on Whiteflash! It's a total compromise given your 1 carat - 1.25 carat dilemma and it is a 1.12 carat AGS A Cut Above Hearts and Arrows diamond. Everything about it appears ideal for only $9,879.00!! Here is the link ... Perfection? Is this it?
 

decodelighted

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
11,534
I think you''d be surprised at how lovely and white super-ideal-cut GIA or AGS "G" and "H" color stones are ... (even I & J too ... but since you''re obviously a high color lover ... G & H would be safe) There is a BIG jump in price to E or F -- but not a big difference in *appearance* ... so many people, after some research, conclude that the price isn''t "worth" the extra $ -- or (more aptly) the reduced SIZE necessary to stay within budget.
31.gif
31.gif
11.gif


As to the "estate" piece not having a certified stone -- that is actually quite common. Most of the gorgeous vintage rings you see around here (genuine antiques) do not have certified stones and are not "modern Ideal cuts". What is called "super ideal cut" is a recent invention -- almost NO older stones would have been cut to those proportions... not even signed pieces like Tiffany, Cartier & the like. Diamond tech is always evolving ... however, BEAUTY is eternal & many non-certed, non-"ideal" stones are much, much more BEAUTIFUL to *my* eye than the super ideals of today. So you either want an antique beauty -OR- a super ideal. You cannot have both.
9.gif
 

Loves Vintage

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
4,568
Date: 11/25/2007 7:05:39 PM
Author: mrssalvo
actually it''s very common for estate rings and pieces to not have certs. what the jewelers were telling you is true. it is not cheap to send them away for certs and old cuts are not ideally cuts according to the PS definition so they wouldn''t do well even with a cert. most folks buy an estate ring based on beauty and if it speaks to them not the paper. you can easily have the ring checked out by an independant appraiser that can verify what the store is telling you it is. Many folks don''t like removing old stones from their settings b/c it can cause damage to the setting or messes with the integrity of the ring and they just don''t want to risk it.


HOF makes lovely settings and are beautiful stones. you just have to decide if the price premium is worth it to you, for some it definitely is, for others it''s not. sounds like a bigger stone is more important so I''d probably go that route
2.gif


Thanks for letting me know about the cert. That totally makes sense. I did back down on wanting the cert and asked if they could just tell me about the cut. I felt comfortable that the ring is what they say it is, and that it was just an issue of the first person mis-speaking about the cut. And, I see what you mean, that ring did speak to me when I first saw it. Now, it appears other rings are speaking more loudly.
1.gif
 

DiamanteBlu

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
2,501
I bought my EC without a cert [it is posted in SMTR]. It was [is] an estate piece and when I saw it, it just "spoke" to me and I had to have it. [I had been looking for a large RB, LOL!] The store, which is well known for dealing in estate pieces, gave me a store appraisal for the purchase price. I have to say that the specs looked to me to be right on [I know a bit about diamonds] and the thought to have a second opinion never crossed my mind. When I take the stone out of its setting to be reset I will send it off to the GIA for certification, though.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I loved the piece, the price was right so it being certified did not matter to me. I have enjoyed it for many years.

Hope this helps.

DB
 

Loves Vintage

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
4,568
Date: 11/25/2007 7:13:17 PM
Author: decodelighted
I think you'd be surprised at how lovely and white super-ideal-cut GIA or AGS 'G' and 'H' color stones are ... (even I & J too ... but since you're obviously a high color lover ... G & H would be safe) There is a BIG jump in price to E or F -- but not a big difference in *appearance* ... so many people, after some research, conclude that the price isn't 'worth' the extra $ -- or (more aptly) the reduced SIZE necessary to stay within budget.
31.gif
31.gif
11.gif



As to the 'estate' piece not having a certified stone -- that is actually quite common. Most of the gorgeous vintage rings you see around here (genuine antiques) do not have certified stones and are not 'modern Ideal cuts'. What is called 'super ideal cut' is a recent invention -- almost NO older stones would have been cut to those proportions... not even signed pieces like Tiffany, Cartier & the like. Diamond tech is always evolving ... however, BEAUTY is eternal & many non-certed, non-'ideal' stones are much, much more BEAUTIFUL to *my* eye than the super ideals of today. So you either want an antique beauty -OR- a super ideal. You cannot have both.
9.gif

Hmmm . . . I will look at some G's and H's. I will admit that it is very, very difficult for me to tell the difference with some of these stones. The store I liked has super-bad lighting and I swear one of their H's looked yellow to me. I will have to see about getting a diamond out into the natural light.

So interesting when you say: "BEAUTY is eternal & many non-certed, non-'ideal' stones are much, much more BEAUTIFUL to *my* eye than the super ideals of today." I have NO confidence in comparing two rings, especially if they are at two different stores. Yes, I loved that vintage ring, but after learning about ideal cuts, I have just written it off based on the cut. Maybe I shouldn't have been so quick to judge. So confused.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
58,342
It is indeed confusing! Part of the reason we recommend ideal cuts is that many people on PS are considering ordering from an online vendor. That is just the safest choice, in my opinion, when you don''t have the opportunity to compare multiple stones. Once you have looked at ideal cut stones and you continue to look at vintage rings, you can decide what you like best. Incidentally, my original e-ring is 30 years old, and at that time, it was not common for e-rings to have certs for the diamonds.
 

Sparkalicious

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
3,721
Hmmm . . . I will look at some G''s and H''s. I will admit that it is very, very difficult for me to tell the difference with some of these stones. The store I liked has super-bad lighting and I swear one of their H''s looked yellow to me. I will have to see about getting a diamond out into the natural light.

So interesting when you say: ''BEAUTY is eternal & many non-certed, non-''ideal'' stones are much, much more BEAUTIFUL to *my* eye than the super ideals of today.'' I have NO confidence in comparing two rings, especially if they are at two different stores. Yes, I loved that vintage ring, but after learning about ideal cuts, I have just written it off based on the cut. Maybe I shouldn''t have been so quick to judge. So confused.
I have found the G & H stones I have seen in stores to look yellow as well. Even at the jeweler I am now dealing with, whom I feel has exceptional quality items, when comparing the stones, side by side, for preference purposes, not knowing anything about them, I always choose those in the D to F range. Now that I have read more PS posts, I am questioning myself b/c I would love to get a larger stone in the G/H range if it faced up white. Next time I venture out to my diamond place, I''m going to try it out and look at them in their own right instead of beside D/E/F stones.

Not sure if you caught the update in my previous post, but I found something on Whiteflash for you ... It might work for you. Hope you like it. I really wish I would have signed up on PS sooner ... It would have been so nice to have access to all the people willing to help in the decision making process

This is what I posted before ...


"In my opinion, if you are willing to pay $9500 for an "almost" ideal cut, you should just go ahead and get an "ideal", ideal cut even if it is just a little bit more ... I found this for you on Whiteflash! It''s a total compromise given your 1 carat - 1.25 carat dilemma and it is a 1.12 carat AGS A Cut Above Hearts and Arrows diamond. Everything about it appears ideal for only $9,879.00!! Here is the link ... http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-329894.htm
 

lyra

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
5,242
I have a GIA cert. on my 25 year old .26ct RB. I have no cert. on my 1.77ct RB. Does it bother me? Not at all. The 1.77 was bought as an estate piece with no cert. Before we paid for it, we had 2 independent appraisers evaluate it and that was enough. It may not be ideal cut, but it is close. It performs like crazy. So no, I definitely wouldn''t make having a cert. a necessity in purchasing an estate piece. There is not as high a markup on those pieces usually, or if they''re consigned, an even smaller markup so it''s not likely a store with be willing to spend a few hundred dollars extra on a piece of paper. Depends on what you''re comfortable with of course. I would expect to pay a fair price as well. There aren''t any real "bargains" out there, regardless of whether it is a newly certed stone or an older stone of the same quality. You may save some money, but overall the price ranges would be very similar.
 

Loves Vintage

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
4,568
Date: 11/25/2007 7:13:11 PM
Author: Sparkalicious
No problem! Thanks for the update ...

Believe it or not, what you are experiencing helps me to feel as though I am more sane. I have been going through the very same roller coaster. I too started out being a 'one carat' girl but somewhere along the way, unbeknowst to me, I upgraded and 1 carat just will not do anymore.
9.gif


If I can offer some advice to assist with overcoming some of your frustration and confusion
33.gif
, decide what you want - what do you absolutely have to have, as a minimum and what is negotiable ... Once you figure out these things, everything seems to fall more into place. This way you tell people what you would like and they are either able to fulfill your request or not instead of providing you with their biased retail opinions.

I found that once I started speaking from a more enlightened or educated perspective, those l was/am looking to buy from met me at the same level instead of selling me their story. Believe me, everyone's got one about why their stuff is the best.

Go crazy! Take a look at everything you like, compare prices and then make a decision and stick to it and see who will get you the best price for what you want. By the way, I don't envy your position, the more you look, the more you like.
30.gif
and the harder it is to stay within budget.
22.gif


Keep us updated ...

** Update ** Just found this for you on Whiteflash ...
In my opinion, if you are willing to pay $9500 for an 'almost' ideal cut, you should just go ahead and get an 'ideal', ideal cut even if it is just a little bit more ... I found this for you on Whiteflash! It's a total compromise given your 1 carat - 1.25 carat dilemma and it is a 1.12 carat AGS A Cut Above Hearts and Arrows diamond. Everything about it appears ideal for only $9,879.00!! Here is the link ... Perfection? Is this it?

This could be it! I think I acutally had the same diamond up on Sunday morning. It is a total compromise. What I feel kind of funny about now is that I love that it's a VS1 and an F and an ACA, because I know they are "better," but I am not sure that I would be able to tell the difference visually from a G, SI1 ideal? So, I almost feel like I'm selecting a brand name -- VS1, F, ACA is supposed to be better, so I want it, even though I could not distinguish it from a "lesser" stone, so if I can't tell the difference, then what's the point in spending the extra $$. I think I need to do what you said, spend some more time in a shop, comparing diamonds to decide what are must haves.


i e-mailed Whiteflash about their setting that is like Felicity and asked for more pictures.


Is there a 5% Pricescope discount on the entire ring at WF? I saw a reference to a 5% discount in another thread, but I wasn't sure if that was only for a limited time. I did not see anything about it elsewhere on this site.
 

Rhea

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,399
I too have an estate piece without a certificate - it''s an early modern round, sometimes called transition cut, from the 1940s. Estate pieces are not ideal cut - you''re looking at stones that might have been cut around 100+ years ago. I love antique stones because of the charm, beauty and rareness of the cut. I understand liking both vintage and ideal - but you''re looking at two mutually exclusive loves there :)

If you like the antique ring simply take it to a jeweler and make sure that it''s what it says it is.
 

surfgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
4,438
There is a common misnomer amongst some about what "estate" pieces really are. In my experience, "estate" can be antique, vintage or merely a fancy name for "pre owned", but it doesn''t mean antique or even vintage exclusively. I''m not sure if it ever did but most "estate" shops I''ve been to have a combo of the three mentioned above.

As for whether or not the stone you liked in the shop was an old cut or not, hard to tell without a photo. If you really love that ring (and it sounds like you no longer do if you''re looking elsewhere), then I''d take it to two independent appraisers and see if they''re appraisals match what the shop says it is.
 

Kay

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
2,573
Date: 11/26/2007 9:53:30 AM
Author: Loves Vintage

Date: 11/25/2007 7:13:11 PM
Author: Sparkalicious
No problem! Thanks for the update ...

Believe it or not, what you are experiencing helps me to feel as though I am more sane. I have been going through the very same roller coaster. I too started out being a ''one carat'' girl but somewhere along the way, unbeknowst to me, I upgraded and 1 carat just will not do anymore.
9.gif


If I can offer some advice to assist with overcoming some of your frustration and confusion
33.gif
, decide what you want - what do you absolutely have to have, as a minimum and what is negotiable ... Once you figure out these things, everything seems to fall more into place. This way you tell people what you would like and they are either able to fulfill your request or not instead of providing you with their biased retail opinions.

I found that once I started speaking from a more enlightened or educated perspective, those l was/am looking to buy from met me at the same level instead of selling me their story. Believe me, everyone''s got one about why their stuff is the best.

Go crazy! Take a look at everything you like, compare prices and then make a decision and stick to it and see who will get you the best price for what you want. By the way, I don''t envy your position, the more you look, the more you like.
30.gif
and the harder it is to stay within budget.
22.gif


Keep us updated ...

** Update ** Just found this for you on Whiteflash ...
In my opinion, if you are willing to pay $9500 for an ''almost'' ideal cut, you should just go ahead and get an ''ideal'', ideal cut even if it is just a little bit more ... I found this for you on Whiteflash! It''s a total compromise given your 1 carat - 1.25 carat dilemma and it is a 1.12 carat AGS A Cut Above Hearts and Arrows diamond. Everything about it appears ideal for only $9,879.00!! Here is the link ... Perfection? Is this it?

This could be it! I think I acutally had the same diamond up on Sunday morning. It is a total compromise. What I feel kind of funny about now is that I love that it''s a VS1 and an F and an ACA, because I know they are ''better,'' but I am not sure that I would be able to tell the difference visually from a G, SI1 ideal? So, I almost feel like I''m selecting a brand name -- VS1, F, ACA is supposed to be better, so I want it, even though I could not distinguish it from a ''lesser'' stone, so if I can''t tell the difference, then what''s the point in spending the extra $$. I think I need to do what you said, spend some more time in a shop, comparing diamonds to decide what are must haves.



i e-mailed Whiteflash about their setting that is like Felicity and asked for more pictures.



Is there a 5% Pricescope discount on the entire ring at WF? I saw a reference to a 5% discount in another thread, but I wasn''t sure if that was only for a limited time. I did not see anything about it elsewhere on this site.
That is a very nice ACA. You might also want to ask WF about these two stones if you are willing to consider a G for more size.

1.218 ct G VS2 A Cut Above H&A $9,408: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-260695.htm#
1.218 ct G VS2 A Cut Above H&A $9,408: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-273554.htm
 

Loves Vintage

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
4,568
Thanks, Kay. I should be finding out about my semi-custom setting tomorrow. I am going to need a lot of guidance from WF. I am really all over the place. Now I''m wondering if I really need ACA? Maybe I should just get an ideal cut?
 

Sparkalicious

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
3,721
Date: 11/26/2007 5:39:50 PM
Author: Loves Vintage
Like this one: http://whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-513833.htm

It looks good. It''s an H, ideal cut, and only 7k! 1.22 ct.

I just don''t know enough to know what I really want.
Ok. It IS frustrating to decide, isn''t it? I know what you are going through so I''m going to try to help ... I hope I can.

Given that cut is the most important element, ACA is your optimal choice because this is supposed to be the "best" or the ideal of the ideal right? Why not go with the most beautiful?

Found this 1.12, H VS1 ACA $7,644

Next decision, would be carat size, I am assuming b/c you have been trying to decide if you want to go bigger than a carat or not. If you started with a carat but don''t want to pay as much for 1.25 then why don''t you go somewhere in the middle around 1.15 or so. This way, visually, there is not that much of a difference, as far as I''m concerned anyways.

Now, if you have decided that you definitely want to be closer to 1.25, then then you have to keep that in mind and maybe change your thoughts around color and clarity.

Clarity -- As long as it is eyeclean you will be fine so even if you get an SI2, if you can''t see the inclusions with the naked eye and they do not affect the integrity of the stone, then you are fine and avoid the premium of a higher clarity rating.

Color -- Depends on whether or not you prefer whiter or warmer. Given that you have gotten the best cut possible, then the diamond should "face up" whiter, which means that you can slide a little bit further down the color scale and your lovely diamond will still have a white appearance. This way you would avoid the premium for getting a D,E or F color stone, however, your G, H color stone would still have that white appearance.

If all else fails, unless you are in a rush for some reason, take some more time, get more educated, go to B&M stores and take the opportunity to look at, examine diamonds until you feel more comfortable about what it is that you would like. Once you know this, it should be easier to decide, theoretically, anyways.
9.gif


Seeing as I have become a big geek apparently, I had to create a spreadsheet in the beginning of this process to help figure it out, as I mentioned in another post somewhere. It really helped as a visual means for comparison, which is why I think creating one might help you since you are looking at a couple different stones now. It really helped me out.

I strayed a little bit away from the stones that were I initially chose but that is b/c I became more educated and found one that I absolutely love when we were checking them out at the jeweler. It is much better than anything I was actually looking at ... but, ironically, it is ''exactly'' what I was looking for ... I think ... just teasing.
19.gif


Let me know how its going ... I love your updates!
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top