Question on Upgrading

[seeking_jubilee]

I am a novice trying to educate myself as best as I can.

I want to upgrade my wife''s diamond sometime.

My friend''s wife has a ridiculously cool diamond. The reflection let me see stars and arrows in it.

He told me to get on the internet and learn as much as I can - perhaps get a better price here than in the stores.

I am not in a rush so can wait for the best deal.

I noticed on the drop down menu at the top of the page that there was something called ''hearts and arrows''. Are stars and arrows the same thing?

Thanks for your help!

 

[quaeritur]

Hi sj, and welcome! You've definitely come to the right place to do your research on diamonds

. I'm not sure if stars and arrows are the same thing. The hearts pattern of a hearts and arrows diamond can only be seen from the bottom, or pavilion side. The arrows can be seen face (or crown or table) side up. I'm guessing the star refers to the center part of the pattern, but I'm not sure, perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

If you're looking for a Jubilee, you might want to check with goodoldgold.com (they also have a fantastic tutorial) and I believe Wink at winkjones.com may carry jubes too, though I'm not positive.

Good luck with your search, and don't hesitate to ask questions here!

 

[Daniela]

Just to clarify, the Jubilee that Queariter mentioned is a hearts and arrows square shape diamond (normally hearts and arrows diamonds are round). It sounds like you are in the market for a top notch hearts and arrows stone. You should definitely read the tutorial at goodoldgold.com--they have a very good write up on cut, by far the best as far as I know. You don't have to buy a diamond from them, but just learn from their write up. I also like the information at niceice.com, because it's not only informative, but also funny.

Other than that, I don't know what the "stars" are that you are referring to. Stick around Pricescope for a while and you'll pick up a lot of great information. I'm very thankful that I found this site--it's not only informative, but it's the best site for diamond junkies to hang out and obsess about their passion, too!

 

[seeking_jubilee]

I'm not really looking for THE actual Jubilee - I just thought that was a cool and unique name.

I think I am looking for hearts & arrows. I'm hanging out with them (my friends) again over the weekend and will find out more.

This stuff is very cool. I have gone to some jewelers and they don't admit to knowing much about hearts and arrows or ags cutting and grading stuff.

How reliable is IGI? They were on every certificate I saw.

Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[hoorray]

Do some searches here on IGI. They are not considered one of the top labs to certify stones. They tend to certify the mall store stones. If you are looking for a top notch stone, I would stay away from mall stores. Higher end jewelers and Internet vendors tend to carry the well cut stones that will dance with life. Educate yourself on the basics. Spend the most energy on cut because it is really what will make the difference in a great stone versus a run of the mill stone versus "frozen spit".

There are lots of people here who will help you sort out the tradeoffs once you have set some general guidelines. They will even help you find online stones if you are interested, or give you opinoins and buying advice on the ones you find. There are tools such as the Cut Advisor, and the AGA cut charts at www.gemappraisers.com that can help you evaluate the specs of different stones and estimate how they will perform.

Good luck -- this should be fun!

 

[JohnQuixote]

----------------
On 10/6/2004 4:40:58 PM seeking_jubilee wrote:

I'm not really looking for THE actual Jubilee - I just thought that was a cool and unique name.

I think I am looking for hearts & arrows. I'm hanging out with them (my friends) again over the weekend and will find out more.

This stuff is very cool. I have gone to some jewelers and they don't admit to knowing much about hearts and arrows or ags cutting and grading stuff.

How reliable is IGI? They were on every certificate I saw.

Thanks for everyone's help!

----------------

Sir Seeker,

Hello and welcome to PriceScope, where you can surf, study, shop and quickly get addicted to the passion we denizens share for all-things shiny

Your initial post said the "reflection" allowed you to see Hearts & Arrows (assuming this is what you meant rather than S&A). Did you observe it with the help of a scope/device or did you just look at the diamond "au-natural" to witness the effect?

IGI is the world's largest gem certification and appraisal institute. Many chain store diamonds are graded by that body. Internet diamonds found through the vast PriceScope resources are more typically graded by GIA, AGS or EGL-USA. Opinions vary on the reliability of IGI relative to the labs mentioned above. If you care to study, you can begin HERE and then look up some past IGI threads using the PS search feature.

As for jewelers "knowing about" H&A, AGS cut, etc., you will find that varies as well. Some places do not specialize in those areas, but you'll find that the B&M (brick and mortar) vendors here on PriceScope have a vast command of such knowledge, and there are an abundance of both internet and B&M vendors represented here to field your queries.

It may help to find out from your friend how he/she came across the diamond and specifics on the 4Cs of that stone (carat weight, color, clarity and all available dimensions of cut): This information will be a good starting point as you educate and prepare yourself to make your own purchase.

 

[seeking_jubilee]

Thanks for the info -

I did try to log on to goodoldgold.com, though I guess I'm having problems with my computer - the pages were loading slow.

I have read some (not all!) of the vast information here on Pricescope. It certainly is a lot!

 

[seeking_jubilee]

 

[seeking_jubilee]

I hope everybody liked my blank post. I tried really hard on that one! Here is my best shot at a repost:

>>>Your initial post said the 'reflection' allowed you to see Hearts & Arrows (assuming this is what you meant rather than S&A). Did you observe it with the help of a scope/device or did you just look at the diamond 'au-natural' to witness the effect?

What I saw was viewed through a plastic tube on some tissue. It seemed to diffuse the light and I could there see the "arrows"

>>>IGI is the world's largest gem certification and appraisal institute. Many chain store diamonds are graded by that body. Internet diamonds found through the vast PriceScope resources are more typically graded by GIA, AGS or EGL-USA. Opinions vary on the reliability of IGI relative to the labs mentioned above. If you care to study, you can begin HERE and then look up some past IGI threads using the PS search feature.


>>>As for jewelers 'knowing about' H&A, AGS cut, etc., you will find that varies as well. Some places do not specialize in those areas, but you'll find that the B&M (brick and mortar) vendors here on PriceScope have a vast command of such knowledge, and there are an abundance of both internet and B&M vendors represented here to field your queries.

Here comes a simle with a bit of a stretch - The diamond industry is like the automobile industry: There is a broad definition of what an autombile is but but the relative value of said automobile is determined by the quality and performance of the car - - there is a broad definition of what detemines a diamond to be a diamond but the relative value of the diamond is based on the quality (cut) and performance (clarity) of the stone? Consequently, there are different "authorities" (J.D. Powers - -IGI) to whom you can go for a rating on their respective product?


>>>It may help to find out from your friend how he/she came across the diamond and specifics on the 4Cs of that stone (carat weight, color, clarity and all available dimensions of cut): This information will be a good starting point as you educate and prepare yourself to make your own purchase.----------------[/quote]



I'm going to see my friend tonight - I will make try to find out as much information about his wife's diamond as possible!

Thanks for your very thorough response. I now have many more resources to tap into if i need to to find more information on such a vast topic!

 

[JohnQuixote]

What I saw was viewed through a plastic tube on some tissue. It seemed to diffuse the light and I could there see the 'arrows'

It sounds like you may be describing a Hearts & Arrows viewer (click here and look halfway down the page to the right). The exact look of the viewer may vary, but see if that's what you're describing.

Here comes a simle with a bit of a stretch - The diamond industry is like the automobile industry: There is a broad definition of what an autombile is but but the relative value of said automobile is determined by the quality and performance of the car - - there is a broad definition of what detemines a diamond to be a diamond but the relative value of the diamond is based on the quality (cut) and performance (clarity) of the stone? Consequently, there are different 'authorities' (J.D. Powers - -IGI) to whom you can go for a rating on their respective product?

Here's a smile for your simile

. Some of your word usage (cut/clarity) pings the trade radar a bit askew, but the metaphoric torpedo is mostly on-target.

IGI is a lab which grades diamonds. They are the largest such lab. GIA, AGS and EGL-USA also grade diamonds. They are not as vast, and many are of the opinion that their standards are somewhat higher. As a result, you may find that GIA, AGS and EGL-USA certificates are the preference of many consumers and dealers here.

I'm going to see my friend tonight - I will make try to find out as much information about his wife's diamond as possible!

Thanks for your very thorough response. I now have many more resources to tap into if i need to to find more information on such a vast topic!

If possible, view the certificate and (if he has it) a Sarin report and bring those morsels to the table here.

You're quite welcome. Thanks for thanking

 

[denverappraiser]

----------------
On 10/8/2004 5:13:51 PM seeking_jubilee wrote:

Here comes a simle with a bit of a stretch - The diamond industry is like the automobile industry: There is a broad definition of what an autombile is but but the relative value of said automobile is determined by the quality and performance of the car - - there is a broad definition of what detemines a diamond to be a diamond but the relative value of the diamond is based on the quality (cut) and performance (clarity) of the stone? Consequently, there are different 'authorities' (J.D. Powers - -IGI) to whom you can go for a rating on their respective product?

----------------

Oh goody, a car analogy. I love those!

The local Lexus dealers around here have started into the business of selling what they call a ‘certified preowned Lexus’. To my old and feeble brain this sounds like a used Toyota but they insist that they have significantly increased the value of the cars by this certification process and they charge a healthy premium for having done so. I see no evidence at all to suggest that the cars are actually any better or worse than similar cars without the paper but other people seem to be less cynical than I. They are doing a brisk business without my participation

The reason to buy one of these cars is that the customer is placing their trust in some outside authority to tell them what are the important things about that car. Presumably, it’s then not necessary to go through the learning curve, buy the equipment, and take the time to do an inspection themselves. This is a valuable service and customers seem happy to pay quite a bit for it. The dealer may have been happy to tell them everything they wanted to know but there is an air of credibility that comes from ‘certification’ that people seem to crave.

Diamonds are the same thing. GIA Diamond Quality Reports are called certificates by pretty much everyone but GIA. Customers will knowingly and happily pay extra for a diamond that is accompanied by a ‘certificate’, even if they know the report to be wildly inaccurate and even when the issuing lab specifically states that they are certifying nothing. This has become so effective a marketing plan that it’s virtually impossible for anyone to sell a diamond without one of these reports and instead of worrying about the beauty of diamonds, customers are now worrying about the credibility of the labs.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[seeking_jubilee]

Now I'm really confused.

 

[noobie]

----------------
On 10/10/2004 2:59:04 PM seeking_jubilee wrote:





Now I'm really confused.
----------------

What Neil basically said is don't get hung up on what the paper or certificate says or how good the numbers say it should be; buy the stone based on how it looks to you.

 

[denverappraiser]

----------------
On 10/10/2004 2:59:04 PM seeking_jubilee wrote:

Now I'm really confused.----------------

Sorry, I got off onto a soapbox. Car analogies and diamond certs in the same post

I just couldn't help myself.

What I mean is:

Buy the diamond, not the paper.​

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[JohnQuixote]

Sir Seeker,

Okay, I'm going to attempt a reset of LABS/CERTS and APPRAISERS. I think everyone is providing good information.

LABS/CERTS

Small correction from Neil's post, above: GIA calls it a "Diamond Grading Report."

AGS has a "Diamond Quality Report," but is better known for the "Diamond Quality Document," which provides more measurements and grades the cut according to their cut-grading system. Also noteworthy is that AGS is the only lab that assigns a cut grade as a number from 0-10 (0 considered best).

EGL-USA calls theirs a "Diamond Certificate." IGI calls it a "Diamond Report."

*ALL OF THE ABOVE* are commonly known as Certificates. A certificate is an assurance of quality. It is especially useful when sifting broadly through stones you cannot yet see (like-on the internet). If you want to narrow your options from hundreds of internet stones to several you intend to look at it's helpful to see the cert.

Now, since all grading of color and clarity (whether by appraiser or lab) is subjective, it is a given that grading of a diamond can vary depending on the lab that performs the analysis and certification. The labs use trained Graduate Gemologists and any inconsistencies are often because a diamond is on the line between two grades. As you may have read in Leonid's post on labs and grading (linked in one of my prior posts), diamonds are rarely more than one grade apart between labs - at least, those included in the survey. Bear in mind that with labs, appraisers, etc, grading accuracy will never be 100% consistent as long as color and clarity grading are subjective.

Still, certs are helpful for browsing stats versus price on stones you cannot see.

Using GIA as a "standard," I believe it's safe to opine that AGS generally grades stricter, EGL-USA used to be somewhat softer, but recently is closer, and IGI grades softer.


APPRAISERS

Regardless of whether you purchase a certified diamond or not, I strongly suggest that you use an appraiser for inspection and insurance purposes.

Caution: With respect to appraisers who do their job well, I would point out that independent appraisals are not always as accurate or reliable as a certification from an accredited laboratory. An appraisal can only be as good as the skill and knowledge of the individual doing the appraising. There are many fine appraisers (especially here on PS), but you must exercise caution. There is no formal education or training required to appraise diamonds and jewelry.

To that end, any appraiser you use should be identified as an appraiser with credentials (GG), who is a member of a recognized trade society. There is good info from Dave Atlas here.


FINAL DECISION

Neil's chorus of "Buy the diamond, not the paper" is the ultimate bottom line, once you have narrowed your choices to several stones.

 

[seeking_jubilee]

Lots and lots and lots of info. Thanks for everyone's help!

Ok - - I definitely want to know more about certificates. I plan to do a lot of my research online and (sorry Denver!) I just don't know if I can trust looking only at pics of online diamonds to make my decision.

John, what you're saying is I can use certificates to determine what I can get in my price range (like deciding on model and trim), then when I know closer to what I want I should get the diamond inspected and use my eyes for final decision, right? (like a test drive). Speaking of cars, John, is there any special reason you have that avatar? It looks very much like Porsche.

 

[marinasmk]

Hi there!

Good job doing your research. I spent about a month researching on pricescope before purchasing my perfect "hearts and arrows" diamond. I purchased from whiteflash.com just recently....they are awesome, and I highly recommend you check them out. I bought one of their ACA, or "A Cut Above" diamonds and it is just magnificent. I can see the arrows in my diamond all the time, and it's just unreal! The sparkle and fire doesn't even compare to any other diamond I've ever seen. I received a hearts and arrows viewer from whiteflash with my purchase so I can actually look at the hearts pattern from the one side of the diamond, and the arrows pattern from the other side. Wherever you purchase from, you will be so amazed with the hearts and arrows pattern....good luck.

PS: At Whiteflash the service was absolutely amazing. I placed my order online at 7pm one night, and 30 minutes later, Lesley, the Sales Director was calling me to congratulate me on my purchase and we discussed all the details. The very next day, before I bank wired my money, Brian, the expert cutter at whiteflash called me (after just getting off a flight) in the evening to make me feel comfortable with my purchase. He had my diamond in front of him and viewed it very carefully and provided me with very specific details...I've never received service quite like it. If you do go with Whiteflash, make sure you ask for the Pricescope discount. I paid $9372 for my ACA 1.54 ct. stone, vs. almost $9900 which was the normal price, before the pricescope discount.

Good luck!

 

[JohnQuixote]

marinasmk,

Thank you for the glowing testimonial. We are delighted to welcome you to our family of ACA owners

.

 

[JohnQuixote]

----------------
On 10/10/2004 5:29:03 PM seeking_jubilee wrote:

Lots and lots and lots of info. Thanks for everyone's help!

Ok - - I definitely want to know more about certificates. I plan to do a lot of my research online and (sorry Denver!) I just don't know if I can trust looking only at pics of online diamonds to make my decision.

John, what you're saying is I can use certificates to determine what I can get in my price range (like deciding on model and trim), then when I know closer to what I want I should get the diamond inspected and use my eyes for final decision, right? (like a test drive). Speaking of cars, John, is there any special reason you have that avatar? It looks very much like Porsche.----------------

Sir Seeker, I don't believe DenverAppraiser actually intended you to go a-shopping through a litany of jpg files

You're gleaning my meaning. It sounds like you're setting your ducks up to quack properly in their row. Have you done a PS search within your price range? Looking through the inventories of dealers represented here is very educational - a lot of stones have the certs available for viewing.

 

[JohnQuixote]

BTW - you pegged my avatar appropriately.

A 2003 Boxster is my steed.

(Must watch my speed!)

 

[marinasmk]

You are very welcome, John. It is my pleasure. I researched all the other online vendors, too....no one compared to whiteflash. Other companies didn't even return my phone call. Whiteflash truly exceeded my expectations....not only do I have a gorgeous stone (and I can't wait to upgrade in a few years), but the service was unmatched. In addition, the pricescipe discount was just icing on the cake....so THANK YOU!!! To you and the entire Whiteflash team, you have a very loyal customer for life. Now I just can't wait to have my beautiful stone set.

Thanks again!
Marina

 

[denverappraiser]

----------------
On 10/10/2004 8:39:22 PM JohnQuixote wrote:

----------------
Sir Seeker, I don't believe DenverAppraiser actually intended you to go a-shopping through a litany of jpg files

----------------

Heavens No! Photos are even worse than reports. I would recommend browsing throught the database and the various vendor websites to find a stone that looks promising and then actually looking at the stone before you buy it. Lab reports are very useful for this. Naturally, I encourage the use of independent appraisers

.

I think this is actually fairly similar to John's advice.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[seeking_jubilee]

>>>Diamonds are the same thing.  GIA Diamond Quality Reports are called certificates by pretty much everyone but GIA.  Customers will knowingly and happily pay extra for a diamond that is accompanied by a ?certificate?, even if they know the report to be wildly inaccurate and even when the issuing lab specifically states that they are certifying nothing.  This has become so effective a marketing plan that it?s virtually impossible for anyone to sell a diamond without one of these reports and instead of worrying about the beauty of diamonds, customers are now worrying about the credibility of the labs.

Denver, when you wrote that I interpreted it as you didn't think certificates were useful or accurate. Maybe I misunderstood. I get what you and John are saying about using an appraiser to help once you have it narrowed down. Thanks!

 

[seeking_jubilee]

John, yes you answered all my questions. I may have some others for you if that's ok.

Porsche Boxster-nice! The Speedster reborn. My dad had a 930S. He kept it in the garage like the Ferrari from Ferris Bueller's Day Off and sold it for a profit

 

[seeking_jubilee]

>>>Hi there!

Good job doing your research.  I spent about a month researching on pricescope before purchasing my perfect "hearts and arrows" diamond.  I purchased from whiteflash.com just recently....they are awesome, and I highly recommend you check them out.  I bought one of their ACA, or "A Cut Above" diamonds and it is just magnificent.  I can see the arrows in my diamond all the time, and it's just unreal!  The sparkle and fire doesn't even compare to any other diamond I've ever seen.  I received a hearts and arrows viewer from whiteflash with my purchase so I can actually look at the hearts pattern from the one side of the diamond, and the arrows pattern from the other side.  Wherever you purchase from, you will be so amazed with the hearts and arrows pattern....good luck.

PS:  At Whiteflash the service was absolutely amazing.  I placed my order online at 7pm one night, and 30 minutes later, Lesley, the Sales Director was calling me to congratulate me on my purchase and we discussed all the details.  The very next day, before I bank wired my money, Brian, the expert cutter at whiteflash called me (after just getting off a flight) in the evening to make me feel comfortable with my purchase.  He had my diamond in front of him and viewed it very carefully and provided me with very specific details...I've never received service quite like it.  If you do go with Whiteflash, make sure you ask for the Pricescope discount.  I paid $9372 for my ACA 1.54 ct. stone, vs. almost $9900 which was the normal price, before the pricescope discount.

Good luck!>>>

Marina, yeah I am trying. Thank you for the reference. I was planning to look there as John has been very helpful.

 

[JohnQuixote]

----------------
On 10/10/2004 11:42:40 PM seeking_jubilee wrote:

John, yes you answered all my questions. I may have some others for you if that's ok.

Porsche Boxster-nice! The Speedster reborn. My dad had a 930S. He kept it in the garage like the Ferrari from Ferris Bueller's Day Off and sold it for a profit
----------------

Sir SJ,

Bring the questions to the table anytime. The great thing about PS is that there will be no shortage of answers and opinions.

The 930S vintage is mid/late 80s - a 930 with a slant nosed body style, right? (I googled it). Nice looking ride. My Porsche is a garage car as well.

By day I drive a mild-mannered Ford Explorer.

 

[seeking_jubilee]

You got it (930S). I took it to prom - - I felt like Cameron (Ferris Bueller) the whole time. I drove it VERY carefully.

The unfortunate thing is that we had a box of photos that got lost so now it's just a memory.

 

[JohnQuixote]

My sympathies. Irreplaceable, photos.

Misplacing a favorite is like losing a friend.

I am 100% digital now and backup weekly...
(knocking on wood).

 

[seeking_jubilee]

Well...If you have photos of the Porsche-SHARE!!!

 

[seeking_jubilee]

Hey John

I am bummed that you sent no Porsche photos. Gee, I'd hate to start a whole new thread complaining about you being unresponsive or something...