Platinum Vs Palladium

[esumsea]

Hello again,

In researching my custom setting (http://www.hooverandstrong.com/Tru-PDBrochure.pdf). I have read alot of conflicting info, some of which can be attributed to antiquated ideas vs evolving matallurgical advancement in palladium. For instance I spoke to a jeweler who says that the palladium that is usually considered "grayer" is a WG amalgamation. The same jeweler said that the 95% pure palladium alloy looks identical to platinum and wears the same. Today I call upon the knowledge base of Pricescope to re-address this issue. There is no question that palladium has less weight (density) than platinum but there are two conceptions that I want to specifically address.

-Perception 1: Palladium in grayer or duller than platinum (How much is it grayer?)

Things I have read/heard:
-“ Further, nice palladium/ruthenium alloy looks VERY VERY VERY similar in color to most of the palladium you will see out there. That means that you can feel free to get a platinum head and not have any visual two-tone effect. Whereas if you were to get WG then you would either have to rhodium plate everything including the platinum head, or if you liked the cream color of WG unpalted (as I do myself) then you would have a two-tone effect caused by a platinum head, which to my eye isnt so appealing…about 95% of the time you will never see a visual difference between most platinum alloys and palladium, but there are a few times such as in a dark corridor with dimly lit rooms on either end where the palladium does look slightly darker and slightly grayer than platinum. Its very slight, but it is present because there is no light reflecting off the metals and the metal is very slightly darker than platinum, but to be honest, the few times I have noticed the difference and sought it out to test the difference I have really appreciated it because it is also in those type of diffused dimly lit environments that the diamond shines the whitest and brightest, and for me that very subtle contrast between the VERY slightly darker metal and brilliance of the diamond is a real plus. But to be honest, I dont think your fiance would ever notice it, even if she were wearing a platinum band next to it, unless she knew exactly what to look for it would just look like a momentary play of light and shadows.”-WorkingHardforSmallRewards

-“ The jewellers I spoke with said that because palladium comes from the platinum familym, it is a white metal and won''t fade over time.”-NewEnglandLady

-I have spoken to Jason at Pearlman’s and he says he cannot see a difference in color with his eye

Perception 2: Palladium will require more work achieve a good polish and will loose its polish quicker than platinum (How much more quickly?)
Things I have heard/read:

-“When heated with a jeweler''s torch, palladium gets a bit of a gray coating on it. Gold darkens with the same heat, but platinum just keeps its finish and color. The darkening or taarnish can be prevented with certain coatings, but when making highly complex pieces, one might want to pre-polish the components before assembling them. When platinum is used, the polish remains after the assembly is done. … With gold and palladium one must go to extremes to keep the metal shiny after assembly”-Oldminer

-Pearlman’s says they have never gotten one back for polishing.

-Geen Lake Jewelery says that new 95% palladium alloys wear exactly the same as platinum and take as high of a polish.

So..... What are your opinions on palladium vs platinum? Are the above misperceptions?

Let me know what you think; I would appreciate ANY input.

Regards,
Mario

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I ended up returning my palladium band a few days after receiving it, but wanted to tell you that in the short time I owned it:

1. I could not see any difference in color at all between my platinum bands and the palladium band. It was the exact same shade of silvery white.
2. It was so lightweight that I literally could not feel it on my finger. I think it''s only 40% more lightweight than platinum, but it felt like it weighed 1/10th as much as platinum. It was difficult to get used to after wearing a platinum e-ring and wedding band.
3. It didn''t scratch like platinum, it was more resistent. I wear an 18k gold trinity band on a daily basis and I have a feeling the palladium would wear more like that. I knew that the platinum would have more of a patina over time.

 

[esumsea]

Thanks NewEnglandLady!
That is great to hear. So the only reason you returned it was that you could not "feel" it, i.e. that it was too lightweight? If you had it for only a few days, why do you think it was more resistant? Just wondering. Where did you get your band?
Let me know and thanks for the input!
Kind Regards,
Mario

 

[NewEnglandLady]

The difference in weight was a relatively minor reason for returning it, I think I would have gotten used to it. I was only mentioning it because I was surprised at how light it was. The main reason I returned it was because I ordered a 3mm band and it looked too thin on my finger. The more I thought about it, the more I realized I really wanted a trinity ring, so the palladium band went back.

When I got my platinum e-ring, I noticed some scratching within days. Same thing happened after I got it sized and polished. This also happened with my platinum half eternity band--they all got at least a bit scratched even after a few days of wear. The palladium band didn't scratch at all, though. Even after wearing it a bit, there weren't any scratches. I'm sure if I'd kept wearing it I would have noticed scratches starting to appear, but in the short time I had it there was no wear at all.

I bought my band from eweddingbands.com and they were great to work with. Fast, accommodating and returning it was easy.

 

[strmrdr]

to me pall has only one advantage over plat and that is cost, personally id go with plat if I could afford it and didn't want too go with gold gold which is my favorite.

 

[echelon6]

Palladium was very popular during and shortly after WWII because during then, platinum was reserved for military use. When the war ended, jewelers reverted almost completely back to platinum. If there''s some true advantage of Palladium over Platinum then we''d probably see more fine jewelry made in palladium today.


Also on cold hard facts, palladium is much more reactive than platinum and is known to tarnish more easily than platinum. E.g. the heat from the jewelers torch you quoted oldminer is an example of how palladium tends to tarnish. Also I think some more common chemicals we encounter in life are able to corrode palladium but nothing encountered commonly can corrode platinum.


As to polish, palladium is much solfter, hence it should be easier to polish than platinum. But being softer, it should also be easier for palladium to get scratched up. Generally the ease of polishing and the ease of scratching go hand in hand, i.e. they vary in the same direction with each other.


If cost was not an issue, my preference is for platinum, for the purpose of fine jewelry.

 

[Margarw]

I too, at one point was considering Paladium over Platinum. I didn''t know much about Paladium, and thought it was relatively "new." When I asked the guy that does alot of bench work for me about it, he said something that stuck with me....."Paladuium is not new. They''ve been using it for class rings for years and years. I''ll do whatever you want, but do you really want to put this stone in a metal used for class rings?" Maybe it was just a mind thing, but that stuck with me. I went w/ Platinum.

(Had I not been able to afford the platinum, I probably would''ve then opted for 18k wg over the Paladium at that point.)

Just my experience.

 

[esumsea]

Date: 11/1/2007 4:38:29 AM
Author: echelon6
Palladium was very popular during and shortly after WWII because during then, platinum was reserved for military use. When the war ended, jewelers reverted almost completely back to platinum. If there''s some true advantage of Palladium over Platinum then we''d probably see more fine jewelry made in palladium today.
This is sophistry. First palladium is being used more and more, even whiteflash is on the cusp of introducing palladium jewelry. It is a growing trend. If palladium was not a desirable metal this would not be the case. Palladium was MORE expensive than platinum for a long while and maybe that is why it was not used. Now palladium is an option because platinum has recently gotten extremely pricey! Maybe before the difference was not that big so people went with platinum because it was what they knew (marketing). The important thing to note is that a jeweler who uses BOTH metals and would make more selling me a platinum ring said that there is no discernable difference in color or wear. They did mention that they are using a new palladium blend.

Also on cold hard facts, palladium is much more reactive than platinum and is known to tarnish more easily than platinum. E.g. the heat from the jewelers torch you quoted oldminer is an example of how palladium tends to tarnish. Also I think some more common chemicals we encounter in life are able to corrode palladium but nothing encountered commonly can corrode platinum.
Seeing that the hottest weather I will enouter is 115 degress I think I will be safe with palladium. Even the 550 degrees of an oven wont tarnish palladium. As far as chemicals, I don''t think there are any household chemicals that will effect palladium but I am not an expert, maybe some others want to weigh in here.


As to polish, palladium is much solfter, hence it should be easier to polish than platinum. But being softer, it should also be easier for palladium to get scratched up. Generally the ease of polishing and the ease of scratching go hand in hand, i.e. they vary in the same direction with each other.
Hmmm, I will have to ask around about this. For it is completely the opposite of what NewEnglandLady experienced

If cost was not an issue, my preference is for platinum, for the purpose of fine jewelry. Obviously I would go with plat if cost was not an option BUT IT IS. The only reason would be that I know more about the metal (marketing). However maybe in 10-20 years people will prefer palladium.

I thank you for your input, even though I have rebutted some of it, please don''t take offense, I am just trying to get to the bottom of things. In the end, you may be right, and I am willing to concede that possiblility, just not now.

Regards,
Mario

I too, at one point was considering Paladium over Platinum. I didn''t know much about Paladium, and thought it was relatively "new." When I asked the guy that does alot of bench work for me about it, he said something that stuck with me....."Paladuium is not new. They''ve been using it for class rings for years and years. I''ll do whatever you want, but do you really want to put this stone in a metal used for class rings?" Maybe it was just a mind thing, but that stuck with me. I went w/ Platinum.
EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT BY MARKETING, that is not a good reason. Hey my class ring is 18k gold, does that mean I would never buy fine jewelery with 18 ct gold?

 

[misskiss]

Esumsea,

Thank you for re-posting the palladium/platinum debate. I vote for palladium.

My stones are coming in tomorrow (!) and I''ve decided to have them set in a five-stone palladium band. My jeweler showed me her palladium and platinum rings that she''s been wearing for years, and I honestly could not tell the difference. If anything, the palladium band looked a little whiter.

My jeweler absolutely trusts the metal to set diamonds, as much as she trusts platinum. I like the lighter weight b/c my band will be substantial enough without the extra weight. And it''s costing me about $1200 less. Spend more on the stones, not the metal!

I think the perceptions you brought up are the reasons why palladium is not yet as popular as platinum, not because it is an inferior metal. Platinum will probably always be popular, but I bet five years from now more jewelers will be working with palladium and more PSers will be opting for it. Maybe we should start a new thread for palladium rings only?

Good luck with whatever you decide. I''m sure it will be gorgeous!

 

[esumsea]

MissKiss,
I am very glad to hear that. Is there any way you can get some pics so I can see the difference? I have had a hard time doing that. I think you are right, it takes a while to accept change. Hopefully more will weigh in on this matter. I really appreciate your input.
Regards,
Mario

 

[risingsun]

FWIW, HOF uses palladium instead of a nickle alloy in their 18k wg jewelry. That''s great for me, as I have a nickel allergy!

 

[echelon6]

Date: 11/1/2007 3:57:17 PM
Author: esumsea

Date: 11/1/2007 4:38:29 AM

Author: echelon6

Palladium was very popular during and shortly after WWII because during then, platinum was reserved for military use. When the war ended, jewelers reverted almost completely back to platinum. If there''s some true advantage of Palladium over Platinum then we''d probably see more fine jewelry made in palladium today.

This is sophistry. First palladium is being used more and more, even whiteflash is on the cusp of introducing palladium jewelry. It is a growing trend. If palladium was not a desirable metal this would not be the case. Palladium was MORE expensive than platinum for a long while and maybe that is why it was not used. Now palladium is an option because platinum has recently gotten extremely pricey! Maybe before the difference was not that big so people went with platinum because it was what they knew (marketing). The important thing to note is that a jeweler who uses BOTH metals and would make more selling me a platinum ring said that there is no discernable difference in color or wear. They did mention that they are using a new palladium blend.


Also on cold hard facts, palladium is much more reactive than platinum and is known to tarnish more easily than platinum. E.g. the heat from the jewelers torch you quoted oldminer is an example of how palladium tends to tarnish. Also I think some more common chemicals we encounter in life are able to corrode palladium but nothing encountered commonly can corrode platinum.

Seeing that the hottest weather I will enouter is 115 degress I think I will be safe with palladium. Even the 550 degrees of an oven wont tarnish palladium. As far as chemicals, I don''t think there are any household chemicals that will effect palladium but I am not an expert, maybe some others want to weigh in here.



As to polish, palladium is much solfter, hence it should be easier to polish than platinum. But being softer, it should also be easier for palladium to get scratched up. Generally the ease of polishing and the ease of scratching go hand in hand, i.e. they vary in the same direction with each other.

Hmmm, I will have to ask around about this. For it is completely the opposite of what NewEnglandLady experienced


If cost was not an issue, my preference is for platinum, for the purpose of fine jewelry. Obviously I would go with plat if cost was not an option BUT IT IS. The only reason would be that I know more about the metal (marketing). However maybe in 10-20 years people will prefer palladium.


I thank you for your input, even though I have rebutted some of it, please don''t take offense, I am just trying to get to the bottom of things. In the end, you may be right, and I am willing to concede that possiblility, just not now.


Regards,

Mario

I too, at one point was considering Paladium over Platinum. I didn''t know much about Paladium, and thought it was relatively ''new.'' When I asked the guy that does alot of bench work for me about it, he said something that stuck with me.....''Paladuium is not new. They''ve been using it for class rings for years and years. I''ll do whatever you want, but do you really want to put this stone in a metal used for class rings?'' Maybe it was just a mind thing, but that stuck with me. I went w/ Platinum.

EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT BY MARKETING, that is not a good reason. Hey my class ring is 18k gold, does that mean I would never buy fine jewelery with 18 ct gold?

Mario, this is a good discussion.

I personally still believe that one of the biggest reasons why Platinum is preferable over palladium is relative chemical reactivity. Yes, you make a point that your hands will never come under the temperature of a jewelers torch, but what about when your ring needs to be fixed using a torch, or resized using a torch, or for that matter have any procedure done on it?

Also palladium is known to be dissolved by sulfuric, nitric and hydrochloric acids - the most common acids. While strictly speaking these aren''t ''household chemicals'', there will always be trace amounts of these chemicals in everyday life. E.g. going for a swim, or at the beach, or rainwater, or even in the air.

Palladium is also much softer than platinum, which obviously means lower durability and higher susceptibility to scratches and dings.

You shouldn''t base a decision on anecdotal evidence which will at best give you a small, subjective and distorted sample size.

 

[LadyAmythyst69]

I have a ring currently being made in palladium so I''ll let you know if I think there is any difference when I get it. I think if reputable jewelers are using palladium then there probably isn''t much of an issue.

 

[esumsea]

In my research I found that palldium is harder than platinum.
Palladium Hardness scale rating is 150, where for platinum it is 131.
Just thought I would post this.

 

[echelon6]

According to Wikipedia, Pt has a vickers hardness of 549  MPa, whereas palladium has 461 MPa.

 

[JohnQuixote]

The hardness depends on the makeup of the alloy, whether it was cast, cold-worked, etc. Typical platinum 950/900 alloys can finish anywhere between 80-135 HV when cast. Alloys finish harder when cold-worked. There are specialty alloys which are heat treated or aged to be promoted as “twice the hardness” but frankly they behave more like stainless steel and titanium than precious metal alloys.If hardness or scratch-resistance is the goal there are options outside of the platinum/palladium family.

The debate is interesting but skilled craftsmen can produce a wonderful piece in either alloy. How the wearer treats the piece will figure most prominently in how it holds up over time.

 

[esumsea]

Date: 11/5/2007 2:09:54 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

The hardness depends on the makeup of the alloy, whether it was cast, cold-worked, etc. Typical platinum 950/900 alloys can finish anywhere between 80-135 HV when cast. Alloys finish harder when cold-worked. There are specialty alloys which are heat treated or aged to be promoted as “twice the hardness” but frankly they behave more like stainless steel and titanium than precious metal alloys.If hardness or scratch-resistance is the goal there are options outside of the platinum/palladium family.

The debate is interesting but skilled craftsmen can produce a wonderful piece in either alloy. How the wearer treats the piece will figure most prominently in how it holds up over time.

Thanks John,
I understand that the wearer has alot to do with the wear.
Here is where I got my info:http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/950Palladium-intro.htm
Maybe you can comment on that. Maybe palladium is being glossed with marketing itself.
I was just told by a jeweler that my piece would only be $200 more in platinum (or actually $200 less for white gold) and that most of the cost is in the diamonds and custom work. If that is the difference, then obviously I will go with platinum, because of well my own perception that has been molded by consensus opinion, which is probably molded by markieting. However, I have others that have quoted me $1000 less for a palladium ring. This has left me a bit confused but I am sure things will clear up.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 11/5/2007 2:48:18 PM
Author: esumsea
Thanks John,
I understand that the wearer has alot to do with the wear.
Here is where I got my info:http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/950Palladium-intro.htm
Maybe you can comment on that. Maybe palladium is being glossed with marketing itself.
I was just told by a jeweler that my piece would only be $200 more in platinum (or actually $200 less for white gold) and that most of the cost is in the diamonds and custom work. If that is the difference, then obviously I will go with platinum, because of well my own perception that has been molded by consensus opinion, which is probably molded by markieting. However, I have others that have quoted me $1000 less for a palladium ring. This has left me a bit confused but I am sure things will clear up.

Ganoksin is a great site. Here's another page to reference, in-line with the above - although it doesn't address palladium (except pd WG). One page of info isn't going to do the trick tho. There is a great book by Alan Revere called "Professional Goldsmithing" if you are interested in an overview of traditional techniques. Since its publication there are all kinds of new practices.

The place that quoted $1000 less - see if they are referring to 950 Pd or palladium WG. Big difference. There can also be differences in overall quality - which you will, predictably, pay for.

 

[esumsea]

I also came across a white gold that does not have to be plated. Unfortunately I can''t find it again. It was called x-14 or something like that. Can anybody send a link?
Mario

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[MoonWater]

I''m bumping this thread because we went to a jewelry store today and found a great wedding band for my soon to be fiance''/soon to be husband. It''s by Scott Kay and it''s palladium. I had already decided on getting him platinum but we both really like this particular band. I decided to search on PS to determine what the issue is with palladium and I still don''t get it. My main concern would be with the chemicals. Has this been absolutely proven? My bf loves to swim, either in a pool or in the ocean, so that''s my main concern. But what about household chemicals over time? What about whatever it is you guys deal with when you fix cars? I''m not sure what to do. I''m going back and forth.

 

[mintve]

I tried on a Palladium ring at BBB. it was very light on my finger. I prefer my ring to have a bit more weight, so I am opting for platinum. The sales woman at BBB made it sound like more desingers will be using palladium in the future. It looked similar to the platinum rings I tried on, it just felt weightless. It is a personal choice, and i choose platinum

 

[esumsea]

Date: 11/11/2007 8:45:24 PM
Author: MoonWater
I''m bumping this thread because we went to a jewelry store today and found a great wedding band for my soon to be fiance''/soon to be husband. It''s by Scott Kay and it''s palladium. I had already decided on getting him platinum but we both really like this particular band. I decided to search on PS to determine what the issue is with palladium and I still don''t get it. My main concern would be with the chemicals. Has this been absolutely proven? My bf loves to swim, either in a pool or in the ocean, so that''s my main concern. But what about household chemicals over time? What about whatever it is you guys deal with when you fix cars? I''m not sure what to do. I''m going back and forth.

I am also curious about this. Anybody know anything about this?

 

[esumsea]

The more research I do, the more I realize that adversion to palladium is mostly due to stigma and misinformation. Here is what I got from Hoover and strongs catalog (pg 200-202).

-Palladium strikes a harmonious balance: more durable and less susceptible to tarnish than White Gold, but as malleable as Platinum.

-MJSA has recently introduced a white gold index defining whiteness as a function of the ASTM yellowness index.

TruPd™ has a yellowness index value of 11, making it far superior to the minimum requirements for a premium white alloy. TruPd™ will not require rhodium plating.

Grade 1 (good white) alloys have a yellowness index value of less than 19.
These alloys do not require rhodium plating.

950 Platinum-Ruthenium has a yellowness index value of 11.

-After simulated wear tests, TruPd™ has a 15% greater wear resistance over 14k white gold and 585 Platinum. For a comparison, under identical test conditions 950 Platinum/ Ruthenium has a 23% greater wear resistance over 14k White Gold and 585 Platinum.

-TruPd™ is less sensitive to impurities and contamination than platinum alloys

-Can broken prongs and lost stones be avoided? If you use nickel white gold settings you are using an alloy that is known to fire crack, quench crack and stress corrosion crack. These problems are exacerbated by notching to fit in your stone…this notch is a “stress raiser” and can lead to failure in sensitive and brittle metals. When you bend tips over you stress this even more. So why use a metal that is set up, or potentially set up, to fail? Especially when this metal is more expensive than the alternative. Then as the final insult, you have to rhodium plate it, with the potential that at some stage, your customer will be back complaining that their white gold ring is turning yellow!
Use TruPd™ and you can do all of this without fear. No cracks or failures, easy to set, no need to rhodium plate, and inexpensive. And itʼs available in tru-seat for settings. What are you waiting for? TruPd™ is an excellent choice for setting. You can set any type with ease…tiffany settings, bezels, pave, no problems. The malleability makes it easy, but you get work hardening as well, just like platinum alloys, so stones are secure. There is little or no spring back in TruPd™, so more delicate stones can be set with comparative confidence, especially compared to setting with nickel white gold.

-These alloys are great to use when you need to set lots of small stones
Just thought I would pass this along for future researchers. I will folow up on chemical reactivity tomorrow with Mr. Grice and report back.

 

[MoonWater]

I dunno...TruPd, is that a branded palladium? Of course they will be convincing. I still want specifics on chemicals. I don''t trust the guy at the jewelry store. Although he was much more informed than someone at Jared''s or Zales... I want concrete evidence that the ring will last. Oh poo, I''ll just get him platinum. He would prefer a heavier ring anyhow.

 

[esumsea]

I should get the specifics tomorrow but if you can afford it and want the weight, go platinum. TruePd is just an alloy that Hoover and strong sells that is 95% or 950 palladium.

 

[gtn]

I wanted to clarify a few points.

Palladium (Pd) is softer than Platinum (Pt) in the pure form, however, if you alloy either metal,hardness increases depending on the doping metal, depending on what the doping metal, the Pd alloy could be harder or softer than the Pt alloy.

Disadvantage of Pd:
-Pd Alloys is less fluid (malleable) than Pt, thus, not ideal for small prong sections

-Pd and Pd alloys have a tendency to absorb excess gas which can generate porous joints when pieces are soldered, therefore solder joints should be kept to a minimum

-Pd and Pt alloys tends to oxidize during the casting process

Advantages of Pd:
- cheaper/oz. Even though the cost of working with Pd and it's alloys are more expensive than that of any other precious metal, the cost/oz is so much lower than that of Pt that the cost of working with this metal still allows for jewelers to pass on the savings to customers
- can be "cast" through induction heating and polished to high luster
- "whiter" color. It's naturally white and thus does not need to be treated
- no need for plating (and subsequently replating)
- possible to making matching sets of jewelry. since the weight of Pd is so light, it is possible to make not only rings, earrings, necklaces, bracelets, etc of very large and intricate design without being prohibitively expensive and heavy


I am not for or against Pd or Pt, just stating some facts.

ETA: Pd is very chemically stable as is Pt. both metals are used as catalyst.

 

[esumsea]

Thanks GTN.
I have also heard from designers that pd is "whiter" than PT.
Regards,
Mario