Planning to have diamond recut

[shady71]

Like many that have come before me, I unfortunately found this forum and became educated about diamonds after purchasing, instead of before.

The diamond was purchased from a home based dealer/jeweler almost a year ago, return or upgrade is not an option.

It came with a relatively worthless certificate, so clarity/color "may" be less than stated:
Round 2.47 carats
J
SI-1
8.34 x 8.30 x 5.56
66.7% depth
56.4% table
Flourescence - none
no crown or pavillion angle info available
paid $9,100.

Since the stone has been described as steep/deep, I have made inquiries about recutting and have been in touch with Wink Jones, Whiteflash, GoodOldGold, and Bill Bray. I have gotten estimates for recutting ranging from $600 to $2000+ and in between for cuts ranging from described "nice but not top standards" up to premium, ideal cut. Of course, these estimates are based on "per carat" of starting weight only, none have actually seen the stone yet. Since it already faces up small for it's size, I hope to not lose any additional diameter and hope to preserve as much over 2 carat as possible yet still turn this lifeless stone into a sparkler.

I guess my questions are due to the current mediocre(?) specs of this stone, is it worth spending for a premium cut? Any other suggestions or advice? Does anyone have recutting experiences with any of the above mentioned vendors to share, good/bad/otherwise. I really hope to not make another mistake, I seem to be going to the opposite extreme and obsessing on this recut now.

Thanks... shady

 

[strmrdr]

With a 56 table it sounds like you may just get by with a pavilion recut but with that depth keeping it over 2ct ... well I dunno... Doesn''t seem likely but you shouldn''t lose diameter doing that.

 

[strmrdr]

on further thought....

Ask how much it would cost to have it evaluated and then decide based on the outcome of the eval would be my opinion on how to proceed right now you don't have enough information to make a decision.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Do you have any paperwork about your purchase? And did you buy it from a reliable source?

If not, your question to re-cut may well cause other problems. In the US, diamond traders are bound to very strict anti-money-laundering-rules. For us in Belgium, these regulations are even stricter.

Your question to re-cut this stone might be an attempt to money-laundering, in the sense that this could be an illicit stone (for instance stolen) that is turned into a more valuable one.

If you paid only $9,100 for a 2.47 J-SI1, this is another red flag. That price is too low, even with the horrible cut-quality. So, either stated color/clarity are not correct, as you mentioned, or you may have a problem.

So, I hope that you have paperwork about your purchase from a legitimate source, since every re-cutter should ask for this.

Sorry if this sounds harsh. I just want people to be careful.

Live long,

 

[shady71]

Date: 12/3/2008 11:07:28 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Do you have any paperwork about your purchase? And did you buy it from a reliable source?

If not, your question to re-cut may well cause other problems. In the US, diamond traders are bound to very strict anti-money-laundering-rules. For us in Belgium, these regulations are even stricter.

Your question to re-cut this stone might be an attempt to money-laundering, in the sense that this could be an illicit stone (for instance stolen) that is turned into a more valuable one.

If you paid only $9,100 for a 2.47 J-SI1, this is another red flag. That price is too low, even with the horrible cut-quality. So, either stated color/clarity are not correct, as you mentioned, or you may have a problem.

So, I hope that you have paperwork about your purchase from a legitimate source, since every re-cutter should ask for this.

Sorry if this sounds harsh. I just want people to be careful.

Live long,

Thanks for the reply and concern Paul. I have no doubt whatsoever the source is reliable. My best friend has done business with them for 20 years, the dealer is a disabled veteran and his wife is a GIA graduate appraiser. He called in three or four different stones for me to "choose" from, unfortunately I lacked the knowledge at the time to make a better choice. Now trying to make the best of what I have. The "certificate" is IGL and is sorely lacking in information, was accompanied by an "appraisal report" by the wife. As stated, my guess is that clarity/color are less than reported, hence the price. I have forwarded copies of the existing paperwork to all of the vendors I am considering, including Wink for your "Infinity" cut. Just looking to make the best choice possible, not to make another mistake!!

shady

 

[diagem]

Date: 12/3/2008 10:52:03 AM
Author: strmrdr
With a 56 table it sounds like you may just get by with a pavilion recut but with that depth keeping it over 2ct ... well I dunno... Doesn''t seem likely but you shouldn''t lose diameter doing that.

What is the description on the Diamond report about the girdle (thickness)?

 

[shady71]

Date: 12/3/2008 11:51:03 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/3/2008 10:52:03 AM
Author: strmrdr
With a 56 table it sounds like you may just get by with a pavilion recut but with that depth keeping it over 2ct ... well I dunno... Doesn''t seem likely but you shouldn''t lose diameter doing that.

What is the description on the Diamond report about the girdle (thickness)?

Girdle thickness: "Medium, faceted"

 

[elmo]

Date: 12/3/2008 10:24:06 AM
Author:shady71
I have gotten estimates for recutting ranging from $600 to $2000+ and in between

Much more than $200/carat and I think you will be paying for a brand, not the actual work. The low price that experienced cutters charge was an eye opener for me. Of course someone who brokers the service deserves compensation as well.

I think it's a little premature for someone to comment on whether the result will be ideal, premium, "nice", or whatever. You very likely need to retain two carats plus at all cost; I'd want someone who is capable of cutting a nice ideal if the starting material allows, and who can make the best set of compromises if not.

Especially if it's really lower color and clarity than GIA J-SI1, I myself wouldn't spend a lot of extra money for a brand. It might make sense to find out what it really is before starting...an experienced cutter isn't necessarily the best person to evaluate color clarity and value. Also a good appraiser could get the Sarin data that a cutter could do a more accurate initial evaluation with. It might be $100-200 well spent; appraisers can advise on recutting services as well.

Also don't forget to figure a few hundred dollars for a GIA or AGSL lab report into the final cost. For a two-carat result I think you should have that done.

 

[shady71]

Date: 12/3/2008 1:23:56 PM
Author: elmo

Date: 12/3/2008 10:24:06 AM
Author:shady71
I have gotten estimates for recutting ranging from $600 to $2000+ and in between

Much more than $200/carat and I think you will be paying for a brand, not the actual work. The low price that experienced cutters charge was an eye opener for me. Of course someone who brokers the service deserves compensation as well.

I think it''s a little premature for someone to comment on whether the result will be ideal, premium, ''nice'', or whatever. You very likely need to retain two carats plus at all cost; I''d want someone who is capable of cutting a nice ideal if the starting material allows, and who can make the best set of compromises if not.

Especially if it''s really lower color and clarity than GIA J-SI1, I myself wouldn''t spend a lot of extra money for a brand. It might make sense to find out what it really is before starting...an experienced cutter isn''t necessarily the best person to evaluate color clarity and value. Also a good appraiser could get the Sarin data that a cutter could do a more accurate initial evaluation with. It might be $100-200 well spent; appraisers can advise on recutting services as well.

Also don''t forget to figure a few hundred dollars for a GIA or AGSL lab report into the final cost. For a two-carat result I think you should have that done.

Thanks Elmo, I agree on getting either AGS or GIA cert when completed. The issue of "brand", (and even cost to a certain extent) is less important to me than getting a really great cut, (hopefully ideal) that will maximize the stone. Once I decide who to go with, and actually send them the stone, will get a better idea of the potential. Of course, I really want to stay above the 2 carat mark, I really don''t want to sacrifice much diameter.

I am hoping to hear from folks who have gone this route to hear of their experiences.

shady

 

[oldmancoyote]

One last point to consider: since the stone is at least SI-1, the cutter will need to consider inclusions and how they may show up/endanger the cut. With a little luck, inclusions are relatively benign and/or in a part of the stone not touched by the recut and where they would pose few problems (near the girdle, in the crown or the upper part of the pavilion). I think to get a true estimate of cost/benefit, you really need a cutter, as well as an appraise, to see it before you commit to recutting.

 

[shady71]

Date: 12/3/2008 4:58:58 PM
Author: oldmancoyote
One last point to consider: since the stone is at least SI-1, the cutter will need to consider inclusions and how they may show up/endanger the cut. With a little luck, inclusions are relatively benign and/or in a part of the stone not touched by the recut and where they would pose few problems (near the girdle, in the crown or the upper part of the pavilion). I think to get a true estimate of cost/benefit, you really need a cutter, as well as an appraise, to see it before you commit to recutting.

Absolutely, definitely need to send the stone for evaluation before committing. It needs to be re-cut, as it is just way too deep, and lifeless, but whether or not to attempt a "premium" cut will be determined at that time. Hoping to hear good/bad experiences from folks that have had steep/deep stones recut.

shady

 

[diagem]

Date: 12/3/2008 4:58:58 PM
Author: oldmancoyote
One last point to consider: since the stone is at least SI-1, the cutter will need to consider inclusions and how they may show up/endanger the cut. With a little luck, inclusions are relatively benign and/or in a part of the stone not touched by the recut and where they would pose few problems (near the girdle, in the crown or the upper part of the pavilion). I think to get a true estimate of cost/benefit, you really need a cutter, as well as an appraise, to see it before you commit to recutting.

omc

(oldmancoyote),

When re-cutting a round steep-deep to other proportions..., the cutter must touch and cut throughout the diameter of the Diamond..., all crown and/or pavilion mains(+ brillianteering and probably the table).

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/3/2008 5:19:05 PM
Author: DiaGem
omc

(oldmancoyote),


When re-cutting a round steep-deep to other proportions..., the cutter must touch and cut throughout the diameter of the Diamond..., all crown and/or pavilion mains(+ brillianteering and probably the table).

Depends, with a 56% table a complimentary pavilion may be able to be cut leaving the crown alone.
We are all shooting in the dark here however without some numbers to work with.
One thing the OP can do is call around and see if anyone nearby has a sarin machine to get some numbers.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/3/2008 5:17:37 PM
Author: shady71

Date: 12/3/2008 4:58:58 PM
Author: oldmancoyote
One last point to consider: since the stone is at least SI-1, the cutter will need to consider inclusions and how they may show up/endanger the cut. With a little luck, inclusions are relatively benign and/or in a part of the stone not touched by the recut and where they would pose few problems (near the girdle, in the crown or the upper part of the pavilion). I think to get a true estimate of cost/benefit, you really need a cutter, as well as an appraise, to see it before you commit to recutting.

Absolutely, definitely need to send the stone for evaluation before committing. It needs to be re-cut, as it is just way too deep, and lifeless, but whether or not to attempt a ''premium'' cut will be determined at that time. Hoping to hear good/bad experiences from folks that have had steep/deep stones recut.

shady

not steep/deep but from a 60/60 to...

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-a-1-47-ct-60-60-stone-to-a-1-15-ct-after-the-recut-by-infinity-diamonds.24501/

 

[diagem]

Date: 12/3/2008 5:55:11 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 12/3/2008 5:19:05 PM
Author: DiaGem
omc

(oldmancoyote),


When re-cutting a round steep-deep to other proportions..., the cutter must touch and cut throughout the diameter of the Diamond..., all crown and/or pavilion mains(+ brillianteering and probably the table).

Depends, with a 56% table a complimentary pavilion may be able to be cut leaving the crown alone.
We are all shooting in the dark here however without some numbers to work with.
One thing the OP can do is call around and see if anyone nearby has a sarin machine to get some numbers.

Hi Karl..., I am not speaking about the op''s issue specificaly....

In general, "When re-cutting a round steep-deep to other proportions..., the cutter must touch and cut throughout the diameter of the Diamond..., all crown and/or pavilion mains(+ brillianteering and probably the table)."

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/4/2008 12:55:14 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/3/2008 5:55:11 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 12/3/2008 5:19:05 PM

Author: DiaGem

omc

(oldmancoyote),



When re-cutting a round steep-deep to other proportions..., the cutter must touch and cut throughout the diameter of the Diamond..., all crown and/or pavilion mains(+ brillianteering and probably the table).

Depends, with a 56% table a complimentary pavilion may be able to be cut leaving the crown alone.

We are all shooting in the dark here however without some numbers to work with.

One thing the OP can do is call around and see if anyone nearby has a sarin machine to get some numbers.

Hi Karl..., I am not speaking about the op''s issue specificaly....


In general, ''When re-cutting a round steep-deep to other proportions..., the cutter must touch and cut throughout the diameter of the Diamond..., all crown and/or pavilion mains(+ brillianteering and probably the table).''

my bad I missed the or in there....

 

[Lenamama]

sorry to jack the thread... BUT I NEED ALL OFYOU WHEN I BUY MY ROCK!!!!!!

 

[shady71]

Date: 12/3/2008 8:29:02 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 12/3/2008 5:17:37 PM
Author: shady71

Absolutely, definitely need to send the stone for evaluation before committing. It needs to be re-cut, as it is just way too deep, and lifeless, but whether or not to attempt a ''premium'' cut will be determined at that time. Hoping to hear good/bad experiences from folks that have had steep/deep stones recut.

shady

not steep/deep but from a 60/60 to...

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-a-1-47-ct-60-60-stone-to-a-1-15-ct-after-the-recut-by-infinity-diamonds.24501/

DF, based on your experience, you lost close to 22%, that same percentage will take me from a 2.47 to 1.93

I sure hope I can retain 2 carat, would really hate to go below.

I plan to send it out soon after the first of the year. I did not notice in that other thread if you said how long it took, from start to finish, including AGS cert, etc.?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/4/2008 2:36:46 PM
Author: shady71

Date: 12/3/2008 8:29:02 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 12/3/2008 5:17:37 PM
Author: shady71

Absolutely, definitely need to send the stone for evaluation before committing. It needs to be re-cut, as it is just way too deep, and lifeless, but whether or not to attempt a ''premium'' cut will be determined at that time. Hoping to hear good/bad experiences from folks that have had steep/deep stones recut.

shady

not steep/deep but from a 60/60 to...

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-a-1-47-ct-60-60-stone-to-a-1-15-ct-after-the-recut-by-infinity-diamonds.24501/

DF, based on your experience, you lost close to 22%, that same percentage will take me from a 2.47 to 1.93

I sure hope I can retain 2 carat, would really hate to go below.

I plan to send it out soon after the first of the year. I did not notice in that other thread if you said how long it took, from start to finish, including AGS cert, etc.?

it took like three months.

 

[shady71]

Well now I am really bummed.

I have been trying for almost a month now to nail down getting Whiteflash to recut my stone. First Rep I spoke to with dropped the ball, never got back to me with the info about recutting after I emailed cert. After ten days later I called again, got a different rep. Emailed back and forth, got price estimate (contingent on actually seeing the stone) and was told we could start first week of January. A few questions still remained unanswered so I called again today. Rep #2 is no longer at Whiteflash, so now I start with Rep #3. The last of my questions were answered, ready to go?? Nope. Just got an email from #3. Due to current delays with their manufacturers, they will not be considering any re-cuts till February

I am very impressed with the WF recuts I have seen here on PS, and they had the best price too! Some of the other quotes were up to 2-3 times higher!! Do I wait, or do I look elsewhere? Anyone else have good recut experiences to share other than WF??

shady

 

[JulieN]

Try asking if Infinity is willing to recut your stone. (The provenance issue that Paul mentioned above?)

Check if any dealers are local to you. Otherwise, email Wink.

 

[shady71]

Date: 12/17/2008 5:27:59 PM
Author: JulieN
Try asking if Infinity is willing to recut your stone. (The provenance issue that Paul mentioned above?)

Check if any dealers are local to you. Otherwise, email Wink.

I have explored that option, while I am sure I would be thrilled with the results, it is the costliest of all. Not to mention my diamond would be more world traveled than me

shady

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/17/2008 5:41:36 PM
Author: shady71

Date: 12/17/2008 5:27:59 PM

Author: JulieN

Try asking if Infinity is willing to recut your stone. (The provenance issue that Paul mentioned above?)


Check if any dealers are local to you. Otherwise, email Wink.

I have explored that option, while I am sure I would be thrilled with the results, it is the costliest of all. Not to mention my diamond would be more world traveled than me

shady

I guess then the best option is to wait until Jan. then start the process over with WF or spend the extra with Paul.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/17/2008 5:41:36 PM
Author: shady71

Date: 12/17/2008 5:27:59 PM
Author: JulieN
Try asking if Infinity is willing to recut your stone. (The provenance issue that Paul mentioned above?)

Check if any dealers are local to you. Otherwise, email Wink.

I have explored that option, while I am sure I would be thrilled with the results, it is the costliest of all. Not to mention my diamond would be more world traveled than me

shady

don''t think so...have you priced an 8* recut ? don''t,if you have a heart problem

 

[shady71]

Date: 12/17/2008 7:57:02 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 12/17/2008 5:41:36 PM
Author: shady71

I have explored that option, while I am sure I would be thrilled with the results, it is the costliest of all. Not to mention my diamond would be more world traveled than me

shady

don''t think so...have you priced an 8* recut ? don''t,if you have a heart problem

Well, costliest of those I was considering. I do seem to remember reading 8* was like $2500/carat, yikes!!

 

[Kelli]

Date: 12/17/2008 5:24:22 PM
Author: shady71

Well now I am really bummed.

I have been trying for almost a month now to nail down getting Whiteflash to recut my stone. First Rep I spoke to with dropped the ball, never got back to me with the info about recutting after I emailed cert. After ten days later I called again, got a different rep. Emailed back and forth, got price estimate (contingent on actually seeing the stone) and was told we could start first week of January. A few questions still remained unanswered so I called again today. Rep #2 is no longer at Whiteflash, so now I start with Rep #3. The last of my questions were answered, ready to go?? Nope. Just got an email from #3. Due to current delays with their manufacturers, they will not be considering any re-cuts till February

I am very impressed with the WF recuts I have seen here on PS, and they had the best price too! Some of the other quotes were up to 2-3 times higher!! Do I wait, or do I look elsewhere? Anyone else have good recut experiences to share other than WF??

shady

That''s a shame.

I''m sorry to hear that. I had mine recut at Whiteflash and was extremely pleaed with the results. But I do know there was a little bit of confusion in the whole process of mine getting recut. Timelines weren''t met due to mis-communication between people at their different locations. Vera was VERY nice about everything, even when I got impatient and irritable, and she told me it was because this wasn''t really a routine procedure for them. They said they were happy to do it, they just hadn''t perfected the "process" because it wasn''t a very popular thing. I hope they will continue to do them. Not that I will ever need a recut again (I sure hope not anyway!!), but they sure did work magic on mine!

 

[swingirl]

Bill Bray is another cutter, I believe he''s in Pennsylvania. He recut my stone. He has posted on PS but not very often. You might want to consider him.