opinions on a princess - classic is this a nice stone Q?

[junky]

Hi - I have the opportunity to buy this stone for an engagement ring and wanted to know whether it was priced well or if i could do better.
My key concerns: proportions/leakage and of course value.

GIA cert from late 2005 - new stone for ~$4700
princess 5.80 x 5.77 x 3.94
1.06 carat
clarity: VS2
color: G
polish & sym: VG
depth: 68.3%
table: 76%
girdle: ST/thick
culet: none
Faint fluoro

I saw the stone in person, and it looks nice, but at this point, i think i''ve just seen too too many to know anymore, head spinning, etc.
thanks for comments

 

[researcher]

I didn''t check into the price, but that''s not a good stone. Are you sure you didn''t mean a depth of 76% and a table of 68.3%? If you did get the right numbers, I''d pass on this stone. You can do much better. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!

 

[junky]

I don''t think i reversed the measurements.
For example, bluenile''s signature diamonds and pricescope''s "class 1b Premium cut" fall within similar parameters, except the diamond I saw has a slightly bigger table.

Blue nile:
Depth: 63-70%
Table: 65-72%
http://www.bluenile.com/diamond_signature.asp?query=21

Pricescope (D.S. Atlas, Accredited Gem Appraisers):
depth: 64%-75%
TABLE: 60%-72%
Here the depth falls into: "International fine trade cut"

MY DIAMOND:
depth: 68.3%
table: 76%

With these recommended princess table/depth %s in mind, why are you saying this one is not a good stone? Any w/ similar parameters, better proportions you can point me to off hand for comparison?

 

[researcher]

First, I would not take BN''s measures as "the best". In fact, I hate many of their stones, at least where princesses are concerned. In the past year there has been a TON of new information released regarding princess cuts (look up AGS cut grades), and BN is behind the times.

That being said, it''s the COMBINATION of depth and table that make for a good stone. With your table size, you will need a depth of at least 74% or so to have a good stone. With a depth of 68%, the stone should have a MUCH smaller table to prevent light leakage. Do you know what the crown height or pavilion angles are for the stone you''re considering?

I know how upsetting it is to learn a stone you REALLY think is a good deal is not--and is in fact a bad diamond. In princess cuts, the majority of stones are NOT well cut. But, with the new AGS grades princess cuts are beginning to get better. There are some good GIA graded stones out there as well, but you have to search hard for them.

 

[researcher]

Here a couple I would consider:

1.04 H VS1
1.09 G VS2

 

[Garysax]

To piggyback on researcher's points...

It suppose it could be a good diamond, fancies are variable. If you've seen it, compared it to other princesses you know are beautifully cut, done your homework then *maybe* you got lucky and you should buy it. The numbers don't look great but as they say you're buying a diamond, not paper. That said, make sure you know what you're looking for when you go to look at this diamond... is it nice? Compared to what? What does a comparable ideal cut look like to your eye? You said you've seen too many to know. Have you seen a variety of stones with different cuts? If you feel that your eye really can't tell you the difference in cuts maybe you can buy an idealscope or something and take a look at it with that to get a more objective measure of performance?

Take your time, get as much info as you can. It's a big purchase and you want to make the right one.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

If leakage is a concern, than this stone is definitely not good for you.

 

[junky]

Paul - i tried following up m/ your site but none of the PR stones listed are available at their related links.

Can anyone pls provide an easy formula (does a formula exist?) for determining correct PR proportions that minimize leakage. of the other stones recommended here, i see no discernable pattern.

thnx

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/16/2006 8:53:11 AM
Author: junky
Paul - i tried following up m/ your site but none of the PR stones listed are available at their related links.

Can anyone pls provide an easy formula (does a formula exist?) for determining correct PR proportions that minimize leakage. of the other stones recommended here, i see no discernable pattern.

thnx

Hey Junky,

It was not my intention to steer you towards our stones. However, your comment about none of the PR''s on our site being availabe the dealer-sites, where they are linked to, gets me worried. Some dealers have a fine stocklist of them, others need to catch up, and one dealer is not truly an online-dealer. In any case, you can contact these dealers directl.

Back to your question: there is no easy formula, and the ones you mentioned (BlueNile and AGA) are basically old hat. After the introduction of the AGS-system for princesses, a new world of cutting princesses has revealed itself. Basically, one needs a rather deep pavilion, in order to get minimum leakage. And on top of that, one needs a nice crown, in line with the pavilion. It is clear that the stone needs a minimum depth of around 73%.

Depths clearly under 70% are basically spready, but lifeless, and the bigger the table is, the less life.

Traditionally cut princesses with good-looking depths often show the same defect: In order to keep the depth under 75% (which AGA wrongfully puts as the maximum), the pavilion angle and thus depth is reduced. On the crown-side, the crown-angle is increased, but too much in order to maximize weight. Therefore, once one has a stone with reasonable depth, one needs to explore the crown and pavilion angles in detail.

An idealscope or ASET-scope also gives good information in this.

Live long,

 

[junky]

Ok I did some additional looking around. haven''t seen any of these stones, but want to know if they would be calling in based on the numbers:
thanks!

here goes (all princess cuts)
#1:
Carat 0.91
Colour F
Clarity SI1
Total Depth 74.10
Pavilion Depth 56.60
Table 69.20
Dimensions 5.21 * 5.13
Crown Angle 48.60
Pavilion Angle 62.80
Girdle 3.8
Culet NN
Fluorescence None
Lustre VG
Polish VG
Symmetry VG
Cut VGood

#2:
Carat 1.03
Colour G
Clarity SI1
Total Depth 75.00
Pavilion Depth 60.40
Table 67.90
Dimensions 5.55 x 5.45*4.0
Crown Angle 39.70
Pavilion Angle 0.00
Girdle 2
Culet
Fluorescence N
Lustre VG
Polish VG
Symmetry VG
Cut VG

#3
Carat 1.01
Colour F
Clarity SI1
Total Depth 72.50
Pavilion Depth 0.00
Table 69.00
Dimensions 5.64x5.52x4.00
Crown Angle 0.00
Pavilion Angle 0.00
Girdle STK-TK
Culet N
Fluorescence N
Lustre
Polish VG
Symmetry G

#4
Carat 1.01
Colour F
Clarity SI1
Total Depth 70.70
Pavilion Depth 57.90
Table 67.70
Dimensions 5.63 x 5.60*3.9
Crown Angle 38.00
Pavilion Angle 0.00
Girdle 2
Culet
Fluorescence N
Lustre VG
Polish VG
Symmetry GD
Cut EX

#5
Carat 1.01
Colour F
Clarity SI1
Total Depth 68.10
Pavilion Depth 54.20
Table 72.40
Dimensions 5.68 * 5.55
Crown Angle 45.80
Pavilion Angle 56.60
Girdle 3.6
Culet NN
Fluorescence None
Lustre VG
Polish EX
Symmetry GD
Cut VGood

#6
Carat 1.01
Colour F
Clarity SI1
Total Depth 76.00
Pavilion Depth 59.60
Table 68.70
Dimensions 5.38 x 5.34*4.0
Crown Angle 40.40
Pavilion Angle 0.00
Girdle 3.7
Culet
Fluorescence N
Lustre VG
Polish VG
Symmetry VG
Cut VG

 

[researcher]

Good work! You''re definitely on the right track. None of these look bad by the numbers. Hopefully Paul will correct me if I''m wrong, but I think you want the pavilion depth to be around 60, and the crown to be 10%-13%, and the crown angles to be 30 or higher. So, that might help to narrow some of the stones.

 

[junky]

OK. Here's my latest and greatest. I really think I have it down to 2 stones now.
#1
Princess
1 carat G SI1
5.55 x 5.54 x 3.92
table : 69.8
P depth: 58.5
pav angle : 39%
crown height: 10.1%
crown angle : 36%
pointed culet
no fluro
AGS 000
HOW MUCH to pay for this?? please help with ballpark on what premimum AGS OOO exacts

#2:
GIA cert
1.02 ct G SI1
6.03 x 5.82 x 3.86
polish: vg
sym: vg
no fluro
77% table
66.3% total pavillion and crown. trying to get more specific breakdown of measurements...will post back when they come in. but the pics looked quite good.

thanks!

 

[squarediamondlove]

I just wanted to add to what everyone has been saying. Keep in mind that the eye makes the final determination. My princess e-ring falls in the category close to your first stone which you selected, yet it is a very beautifully cut stone; though it is not AGS ideal cut, visually (including results from the Light Scope and ASET) it is still considered a very good cut, falling in the top 10-20% for cut.

I know GOG uses a sample "loser" or "average cut" pricess stone, which interstingly enough has the same table and depth as my stone for demonstration next to their AGS000 princesses. However, in person my stone looks nothing close to their "average cut" stone. Combination of Pavilion and Crown hight and angle is probably the difference. My point is that you look at the guidelines that Resercher and Paul-Antwerp has given you because you have the most chances of finding a very well cut stone; once you go to higher table and lower depth it gets harder and harder, but not imposible finding a beauty. So let your eyes be your final decision maker.