New Kid (Laboratory) in Town

[diagem]

Experts..., any opinions???

Full Article: http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullNews.asp?SID=&id=28056


...."One of the most interesting features of the new lab is the use of the automated Satbar scale to determine a diamonds color. This is one of a controversial issue relating to grading labs, as color grading is considered somewhat subjective.

Other features of the grading include a clarity grading that has a full definition of SI3, bridging the existing gap between the S12 and I1 grades and a cut benchmark in accordance with the GIA Diamond Cut Grading System.

“IDL has merged gemologists and researchers with external engineers and scientists to develop new technological applications,” IDL CEO Peter Meeus commented. ...."

 

[denverappraiser]

I wish them all the best of luck. We need more good labs.

Fast turnaround
Electronic color grading
Retailer friendly
SI3 clarity
Online results
Employing both gemologists and researchers

Nothing revolutionary so far. It sounds like EGL-USA spelled differently. I’m really curious about the ‘cut benchmark in accordance with the GIA cut grading system.” Do you have a URL for the lab site? Any details given? This is the first lab that I've heard of outside of GIA to use the GIA cut grading system on their reports. It's curious that they would use the GIA scale to describe cutting but use their clarity scale.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

All the key-personnel of IDL were key-people of the HRD-lab until for a few months.

I did not notice the reference to GIA-cut grading when I first read the article, and re-reading it, it might just as well mean that EX will be their highest grade, and not VG like with HRD. I would be surprised if GIA allowed them to use the actual GIA-system.

Anyway, I am curious just like you.

Live long,

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/23/2007 12:31:15 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
I would be surprised if GIA allowed them to use the actual GIA-system.

Paul,

GIA is rather eager to have people use their scales for clarity and color grading and go out of their way to try and train people in how to do it. I would expect them to be tickled if a serious lab were to want to use their cut system. No?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Nicrez]

And another also crops up this year...

Anyone heard of or known anything about GCAL (http://www.gemfacts.com/) in the industry. New on 47th street, seem to have quite a flow of traffic. Just curious, as I am tied to using GIA based on the sellability of a stone with GIA versus any other lab report, but curious to know more if anyone''s heard anything.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2007 12:58:25 PM
Author: Nicrez
And another also crops up this year...

Anyone heard of or known anything about GCAL (http://www.gemfacts.com/) in the industry. New on 47th street, seem to have quite a flow of traffic. Just curious, as I am tied to using GIA based on the sellability of a stone with GIA versus any other lab report, but curious to know more if anyone''s heard anything.

I am not at all certain..., but I "think" they are the ones who bought up the controversially "cap beesley''s" AGL (American Gemological Laboratories).

But am not closed on that!!!!

 

[elmo]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:11:38 PM
Author: DiaGem
I am not at all certain..., but I 'think' they are the ones who bought up the controversially 'cap beesley's' AGL (American Gemological Laboratories).

Almost, Collector's Universe bought both GCAL and AGL. "Controversial" is a perspective held more by some folks in the trade...the way I see it Cap is very opinionated, serves buyers rather than the trade, and had the guts to do "quality" grading of colored stones; all of which have the tendency to upset business interests which prefer that you simply buy a pretty rock. Of course there are different perspectives as well as valid nits that can be picked which have been outlined here in the past.

I'd be interested in hearing what other experience folks have with GCAL. Unlike AGL (at least pre Collectors Universe at AGL), they seem to cater to business with customized reports like they do for Blue Nile. For my purposes I'd rather have someone here like Neil do a personal evaluation.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Blue Nile is using GCAL with their signature collection. You can google Palmieri GCAL Collectors Universe (& similar) for some background Nicrez.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:22:42 PM
Author: elmo

Date: 8/23/2007 1:11:38 PM
Author: DiaGem
I am not at all certain..., but I ''think'' they are the ones who bought up the controversially ''cap beesley''s'' AGL (American Gemological Laboratories).

Almost, Collector''s Universe bought both GCAL and AGL. ''Controversial'' is a perspective held more by some folks in the trade...the way I see it Cap is very opinionated, serves buyers rather than the trade, and had the guts to do ''quality'' grading of colored stones; all of which have the tendency to upset business interests which prefer that you simply buy a pretty rock. Of course there are different perspectives as well as nits that can be picked which have been outlined here in the past.

Sorry Elmo..., there is much more than just that!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/23/2007 7:56:17 AM
Author: denverappraiser
I wish them all the best of luck. We need more good labs.

Fast turnaround
Electronic color grading
Retailer friendly
SI3 clarity
Online results
Employing both gemologists and researchers

Nothing revolutionary so far. It sounds like EGL-USA spelled differently. I’m really curious about the ‘cut benchmark in accordance with the GIA cut grading system.” Do you have a URL for the lab site? Any details given? This is the first lab that I''ve heard of outside of GIA to use the GIA cut grading system on their reports. It''s curious that they would use the GIA scale to describe cutting but use their clarity scale.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I had read in Rappaport (I believe sometime mid last year) that many Japanese Laboratories were also adopting the GIA Cut Grading system as their standard as well. If many labs already adopt their clarity/color grading system I would think there shouldn''t be a problem introducing GIA''s Cut grading as the standard as well. We''ll see.

Peace,

 

[elmo]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:28:19 PM
Author: DiaGem
Sorry Elmo..., there is much more than just that!

I''ve seen some of the discussions e.g. well publicized emerald cases. Everyone I''ve seen complaining about Cap is or has been in the business selling stones. Please enlighten me otherwise.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:32:01 PM
Author: elmo

Date: 8/23/2007 1:28:19 PM
Author: DiaGem
Sorry Elmo..., there is much more than just that!

I''ve seen some of the discussions e.g. well publicized emerald cases. Everyone I''ve seen complaining about Cap is or has been in the business selling stones. Please enlighten me otherwise.

In the business... not just selling stones...
I guess I just witnessed another side of him!!!

By the way..., I think AGTA was born because of Cap''s willingness to "serve(s) buyers rather than the trade"!!! Right?

 

[elmo]

I hear you. When Dick Hughes used to post here he made some very specific and helpful points on the subject. However, Cap and AGL have been a big help to me more than once (e.g. found enhancements in something not normally treated, subsequently validated by AGTA at the seller's request) so I like to pass along the recommendation. In the past, AGL has provided very personalized service for individuals, and I'm interested to see how that's affected by the new ownership.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:30:30 PM
Author: Rhino

I had read in Rappaport (I believe sometime mid last year) that many Japanese Laboratories were also adopting the GIA Cut Grading system as their standard as well. If many labs already adopt their clarity/color grading system I would think there shouldn't be a problem introducing GIA's Cut grading as the standard as well. We'll see.

Peace,

It's about time cut made its presence known on more grading reports. I know HRD and CGL developed a relationship involving cut. I also recall discussion on PS about a lab that adopted GIA's cut grading system but remained soft on color/clarity grading...using GIA's nomenclature but not enforcing the standards. As consumer demand for cut information increases more labs will include it in some form, which is a positive development.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:45:48 PM
Author: elmo
I hear you. When Dick Hughes used to post here he made some very specific and helpful points on the subject. However, Cap and AGL have been a big help to me more than once (e.g. found enhancements in something not normally treated, subsequently validated by AGTA at the seller''s request) so I like to pass along the recommendation. In the past, AGL has provided very personalized service for individuals, and I''m interested to see how that''s affected by the new ownership.

Fair enough....., as long as its passed from Elmo....

 

[diagem]

And the story further develops...

An article by Chaim Even-Zohar..., he usually seems to read the "big" picture pretty well....

Good reading: http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullEditorial.asp?id=28063

 

[Nicrez]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:26:12 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Blue Nile is using GCAL with their signature collection. You can google Palmieri GCAL Collectors Universe (& similar) for some background Nicrez.

Thanks John! Reading all this leaves me a bit confused. I am afraid I am quite out of the loop, but from what Elmo and Dia Gem state, they are somewhat controversial in the industry based on the tie to AGL. Is there a thread this was talked about?

 

[strmrdr]

automated color grading.. kewl
si3 clarity grade SUX

 

[denverappraiser]

Very cool,

A $9 straight answer to the color question is a huge deal if it works. They apparently plan to set up shop in Mumbai and Antwerp but nothing in the US. I wonder why since the US is still the biggest diamond marketplace in the world.

I also very much like the ‘virtual’ reports. This will be very helpful to both retailers and consumers alike.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/23/2007 2:36:54 PM
Author: Nicrez

Date: 8/23/2007 1:26:12 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Blue Nile is using GCAL with their signature collection. You can google Palmieri GCAL Collectors Universe (& similar) for some background Nicrez.

Thanks John! Reading all this leaves me a bit confused. I am afraid I am quite out of the loop, but from what Elmo and Dia Gem state, they are somewhat controversial in the industry based on the tie to AGL. Is there a thread this was talked about?

You're welcome. I don't know that it was talked about directly. There was some ado about GCAL's paper in in this thread. No epic threads yet. I wonder if one is forthcoming.

 

[diagem]

As quoted from Chaim''s own words:

"...The limitation of the human eyes also leaves some “illusion” in the certificates or the stones. “Illusion” is a crucial characteristic..."

I am a strong believer this industry can''t exist if the element of illusion is taken out of the Gem Game!!!
...but am eager to personally inspect the "machine"color grades this "new" Lab will offer!

As Chaim ended his article... "Stay tuned – this is just the beginning of an exciting story.
Have a nice weekend."


Interesting...

 

[Nicrez]

Date: 8/23/2007 3:04:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
automated color grading.. kewl
si3 clarity grade SUX

Automated color grading is still not where it should be. In my opinion, the eyes are good, but the general training for color should be stronger.
GIA uses it, and i would say they are no better with it, than without it...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/23/2007 3:41:04 PM
Author: DiaGem

I am a strong believer this industry can''t exist if the element of illusion is taken out of the Gem Game!!!

Which illusion?
The illusion of rarity?
The illusion of value?
The illusion of marketing?
The illusion of tradition?
The illusion of trust?
The illusion of repeatable fair grading?
yep your right the diamond trade wouldn''t exist without illusion.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/23/2007 3:54:56 PM
Author: Nicrez

Date: 8/23/2007 3:04:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
automated color grading.. kewl
si3 clarity grade SUX

Automated color grading is still not where it should be. In my opinion, the eyes are good, but the general training for color should be stronger.
GIA uses it, and i would say they are no better with it, than without it...

Raw Color grading is relatively simple technology wise to do.
Its the made up to suit the trade rules and exceptions that make the implementation hard.
Digital tone mapping(which diamond color grading is) has been around for a long time.
The hard part is taking an imperfect and down right crude system and correlating it with the technology.
Which is why a set standard needs to be implemented either ISO or goverment controlled.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2007 3:57:14 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/23/2007 3:41:04 PM
Author: DiaGem

I am a strong believer this industry can''t exist if the element of illusion is taken out of the Gem Game!!!

Which illusion?
The illusion of rarity?
The illusion of value?
The illusion of marketing?
The illusion of tradition?
The illusion of trust?
The illusion of repeatable fair grading?
yep your right the diamond trade wouldn''t exist without illusion.

Illusion (period).

You and any other individual can translate it in your own terms...

But Illusion in Diamonds is one reason you have spent almost 4 years here on PriceScope!

That''s what makes people passion Diamonds and spend their hard earned $$$ on Diamonds!!!
Turn it into a commodity..., loose the passion!

Loose everything!!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2007 3:41:04 PM
Author: DiaGem

As quoted from Chaim''s own words:

''...The limitation of the human eyes also leaves some “illusion” in the certificates or the stones. “Illusion” is a crucial characteristic...''

I am a strong believer this industry can''t exist if the element of illusion is taken out of the Gem Game!!!
...but am eager to personally inspect the ''machine''color grades this ''new'' Lab will offer!

As Chaim ended his article... ''Stay tuned – this is just the beginning of an exciting story.
Have a nice weekend.''


Interesting...

The above highlighted words were written a week ago.

Something''s up!!!! Laboratory war???


http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullNews.asp?id=28102



http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullNews.asp?id=28082

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hi Nicrez. GCAL was the creation of Donald Palmieri, formerly from Pittsburgh and the owner of the diamond & gemstone priceguides "The Diamond Market Monitor" and "The Gemstone Market Monitor" since the mid-80''s.

In 2001, he established the GCAL in Manhattan, which gained credibility quickly because of their unprecedented diamond grading guarantee to give cash refunds if their grading should be found to be inaccurate, using the "more than the one grade industry accepted tolerance".

They were always a good lab with consistent and accurate grading. Purchased in 2005 by Collector''s Universe (who also purchased AGL), Donald is still President and the Lab appears to be maintaining its high standards.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/23/2007 4:55:38 PM
Author: DiaGem

But Illusion in Diamonds is one reason you have spent almost 4 years here on PriceScope!

Naw I'm here for the science of diamonds and the circle of friends and the thrill of internet combat.
And I buy em cuz they are purdy.
And they make wifey2b and my sister smile :}
I don't need any illusions too buy em and enjoy em :}

 

[Richard Sherwood]

reposted...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 8/23/2007 1:38:11 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/23/2007 1:32:01 PM

Author: elmo

Date: 8/23/2007 1:28:19 PM

Author: DiaGem

Sorry Elmo..., there is much more than just that!

I've seen some of the discussions e.g. well publicized emerald cases. Everyone I've seen complaining about Cap is or has been in the business selling stones. Please enlighten me otherwise.

In the business... not just selling stones...

I guess I just witnessed another side of him!!!


By the way..., I think AGTA was born because of Cap's willingness to 'serve(s) buyers rather than the trade'!!! Right?

I would like to comment that although Cap's personality has rubbed some dealers wrong over the years, his lab was one of the premier and most respected labs in the world when it came to colored stone certification.

In addition, his services were by no means limited to privates. He served trade and public alike. His lab (now owned by Collector's Universe with Cap as President) is used extensively by such retailers as Cartier, Van Cleef & Arpels, Graff, Fred Leighton, Sotheby's, Christies, Bulgari, Harry Winston, Doyles and a multitude of other retailers and dealers. When I had my store I used AGL's services extensively whenever I had an important colored stone. His report and Gubelin's are probably the two most respected used by the major auction houses.

DiaGem, I know of no improprieties that Cap Beesley or the AGL has been a part of since it's inception in 1977, and I think it's important to point out that the term "controversial" is referenced to Cap's personality, which has been construed by some as "blunt" or "opinionated". As far as his standards and reports, from my personal experience they are top drawer.