need advise on 3.04ct Diamond ring

[chu1151]

Hello everyone. I am new here and would like some information if possible. I have a diamond ring that has been appriased last July by a Gemologist at Bailey Banks & Biddle Jewlers.. Here is the information..

Description: 1 lady''s 14Kt white gold and diamond solitaire ring ( this ring I know is from the late 40''s.. family owned)

Measurements 9.7mm x 5.3mm
Carat Weight 3.04
Color F
Clarity Sl1
Cut....... Symmetry... good and polish good
Depth 54%
Table% 70%
Girdle thickness Medium-faceted
Cutlet size very small
Fluorescence none

The diamond is 6 prong set. The ring tapers from 1.5mm to 2.0mm

Total gram weight: 3.0

My questions is.. what would be your value on this ring... and does the area you live in dictate the price of this piece.. meaning, pa. instead of Chicago.. etc.. and do diamonds like this increase in value over years?? Me and my husband really don''t have a retirement fund and we are holding onto this piece I guess you can say for security in some way.. What can you recommend.. Just asking and will take all responses into consideration.. thank you all for your time..

 

[valeria101]

To get a straight number, you woul need to contact an appraiser - this is their job.

In the meantime, a few things come to mind:

- instore appraisal is not the same as having a lab report on the diamond, so the grades may not be right on. The fact that these grades have been established on the set stone (as oppose to loose) means that they can be still further off. Usually, for such grades estimated in setting one grade of each color and clarity one way or another is usually assumed (as far as I know).

- for this stone, one garde variation gets it outside the ''colorless'' D-F range and if clarity may turn out to be I1 instead of SI1 because the mounting hides something, than too bad for the proce estimate

- all in all, 54 depth & 70% table is not a set of numbers that carry a premium these days - actually, quite on the contrary (assuming this is a round brilliant).

You may want to try an search the database above for somethin similar. I would look fro 3-3.2 cts, F-H color, Si1-Si2 clarity, GIA, and say, 50-70 depth and 62-75 table for price comparison. This is probably broad, but the information about your stone is imprecise as well.

Not sure if this helps...

 

[moremoremore]

Ana- check out the measurements...I thought it was a round too...I"m thinking pear or oval or marquis? What shape of stone is this?

 

[chu1151]

It is round and beautiful.. Maybe I mislead the other person who answered above.. I went to Bailey Banks and Biddle that day who had a person come into their store to appraise jewlery.. the store itself did not appraise it. I received in the mail a copy of the appraisal. That is where I received all my information from..

Thank you...

 

[chu1151]

Valerie.. To get a lab appraisal.. do I have to send this ring away??? I don''t what this ring out of my sight.. The appraiser had all his equipment there set up.... I figured I would get a good appraisal with a fine store such at them.. They are located in Pittsburgh, Pa. Not sure if you heard of them or not.. But again it was not the store itself, but a person ( appraiser) who specializes in appraising jewlery.. I am all new to these terms, so please bare with me ... Thank you

 

[valeria101]

Date: 9/2/2005 12:29:33 PM
Author: chu1151

I went to Bailey Banks and Biddle that day who had a person come into their store to appraise jewlery...

That is what I thought...

Honestly, I do not know how BBB appraisers estimate value at all, but it is not unusual to see twice market value on such documents. It makes a huge difference what exactly is the understood purpose of the appraisal: insurance, sale... neither. Sometimes appraisers mention what sort of refference is considered for a certain value (average prices for retail, internet, wholesale...other). Most of the time there is no such mention though. And these variations may well acount for 30% variation or worse.

If there are such details on the appraisal, than it makes it easier to understand what it says.

Is the estimated value allot different from prices of similar stones you found ?

Those lab reports (and yes, you would have to send the ring away) are useful because their data is considered umbised (at least the leading labs' - say GIA, AGS). So if you want to sell it a lab report will eventually become useful. But then, you may not and new reporst are better thanold ones at the time of sale.

Allot is changing about diamond grading and pricing... For example, not there are cut grades, and something is telling me that this stone will not fare teribly well on that account.

I would definitely not hold a diamond as lng term investment: they arehard to sell, and even if the sale prices go up all the time, if you - a private party, try to sell your diamond than such a large discount relative to retail is expected that whatever gain there is of average prices is simply not relevant (say, 20% discount for private sale, and a mere 5% increase in prices per year... or something like that. basically, selling after a decae recuperates the cost, perhaps, but definitely does not match the current prices of similar diamonds). To make things worse, there have been large variation in prices and it so happens that iamond prices in the 70s (when this ring was bought) were allot higher than ever before or after [

So.... I really don't know how to sort out your question in a straightforward way. You know what was paid for this ring an what the appraisal says and if the two match. Of all things in the world, diamonds o not stryke me as a great way to keep a retirement fund, but hey, I am not an expert and there are quite a few on this forum. Hope soem will find this thread.

 

[chu1151]

He appraised this ring at $57,300.00. I have also ( many months ago) contacted Skinner, Inc. out of Boston and sent them the information. they are an Auction house.. with the information I sent they feel the ring would bring in 25,000 - 30,000 but of course that may change upon first hand examination of the piece. But again I will never wear this, but did ask if a ring like this.. once looked at by a lab.. will it increase in value or does it fluctuate just like the stock market? ! other questions.. would it be better to take it to an auction house if found in that price range or would it be better to sell out right to someone?

 

[chu1151]

Thank you for all your information.. I will try to grasp all of it... But I do want to mention that the ring was bought in the late 40''s and not in the 70''s.. I have information from letter from my dad and his sister when and where it was purchased and I think back then the ring sold for around 500.00 I may be mistaken on the price.. I will have to read more letter to see if I can find out more.. again thank you for everything.. It has put some ideas into my mind....
Have a good day and great weekend.

Betty

 

[valeria101]

Date: 9/2/2005 12:44:02 PM
Author: chu1151

did ask if a ring like this.. once looked at by a lab.. will it increase in value or does it fluctuate just like the stock market?

would it be better to take it to an auction house if found in that price range or would it be better to sell out right to someone?

Price variations are not all that easy. Don''t know... I think there are different issues with diamond prices than the stock market. But both are just about as easy to predict!

The BB apraisal sounds like the usual near twice retail value give on such ocasions, probably just by tradition. Theses inflated valuations are meant for insurance, not to inform the owner on anything.

At least online prices for comparable diamonds go from 20k to 35k - depending on what lab did the grading. It is comsidered difficullt to obtain the same for a private sale, since some discount is expected. And if you sell, then I would think a lab report is useful.

But... there are other Pricescopers who provide this kind of advice for a living (independent appraisers that is). One of them could probably suggest what is a good way to go about this.

 

[moremoremore]

oops. The 9.7 X 5.3 and 70 table threw me way off...

 

[mrssalvo]

I would strongly recommend taking it to and indepentant appraiser to discuss what it's fair market value us. My grandmother had a 2.22 OEC stone in a antique plat. mounting from the 30's. she always thought it was worth 30k if she wanted to sell it. After she passed away my parents decided to sell the ring and the market value on her antique piece was only around $8000. I agree with ana, jewelery isn't a good thing to count on as an investment. resale, even at an auction is very difficult unless it's a designer piece like Tiffany. Diamonds are worth what someone will pay.

 

[EZ]

Could this be an Old Mine or European cut stone? From what little I know of diamonds I would think that a Round Brilliant cut with these dimensions would not be that desirable.

From what I gather a lab report is going to cost somewhere from about $200 - $500. A certified appraiser may be able to get lower prices due to relationships they have with the lab. You can find independant appraisers in you area with this link: https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx (Also available above under "Tools")

Personally, I'd consider talking to a financial planner about any kind of long term retirement goals. $25K into XOM, VLO, or XTO would probably appreciate much more than a diamond. If you don't get enjoyment from the diamond then it's just an investment and there are better investments out there.

EDIT: VLO was ~$72 when I started watching it a few weeks ago - last night it was ~$108! (02SEP05)

Kind regards and good luck with your quest.

 

[Mara]

yikes a round with those diameter dimensions? That HAS to be wrong???

i would venture to say that if you just had it appraised last year, the value would not have changed that much. also as others have already noted, a round with those specs will probably not be a very desirable piece, the table and depth seem like it HAS to be a fisheye? some may buy it to have it recut...but if it IS a round brilliant, i don't know how great looking of a stone it would be if sold as is.

if you are really looking at it to have some value, i'd almost check into having it recut, maybe into an eightstar or something because then it may carry more value for resale if it's a branded and more rare cut of a stone rather than an older piece from the 40's with a non-desirable cut. the cutting technologies in the 40's aren't the same as today. many old stones have their own type of beauty, but i have seen some older stones that just are lifeless.

you mention you are holding onto this for future security...one comment is that even if you do get it recut or it really is 'worth' $57k (which i doubt because of the cut and also most appraisals are pretty inflated and not close to a retail value), and you managed to sell it, you could probably only get back 50% or so of the value, the chances of you selling it for close to appraisal seem slim.

just my thoughts but it worries me that a) the cut does not seem good at all and b) you are holding onto this in leiu of a retirement fund...i would not rely on this one diamond to help out all that much IMO. i suggest selling it and investing the money ASAP if possible.

good luck.

 

[EZ]

A recut might be an option here. Is there a rule of thumb or formula that can be used to determine an estimate of how much material would be lost?

From what I understand (not much) recutting a stone carries it's own risks but can substantially increase the value.
I see 4 stones on a search for HCA cuts that range between 2.2 and 2.37 carats and $24,83(HCA 2.) --$34,001 (HCA 1).

Search paramaters were Round, Ex-VG cut, 2.2-2.6 Ct, E-G color, VS2-SI1 (just maybe an inclusion gets lost in the recut?)

I have to ask again -- Is there any way, short of an expert looking at it, to estimate of how much material would be lost?

 

[Shay37]

Carl, from what I understand, it would be necessary for an expert to look at the stone to even see if it could be recut. There are questions of type and size of inclusions that could be disastrous during a recut. This is not a question for the nonexpert to even attempt to answer. Too many variables are in play here to trust to someone to attempt to guestimate an answer for you. If it were my stone, only the cutter (an excellent one) would be trusted to give me the answer to your question.

Shay

 

[chu1151]

You don''t know how glad I am to have found this site.. Everyone one here is so great... and with so much information.. I don''t know how to answer everyone because I know a thing about diamonds.. I do know that I just spoke with my husband and told him that the value is not what they say and I pulled the papers out and yes in the back of the appraisal there is a copy that says.. INSURANCE COPY... well that tells it all..

I have to ask again -- Is there any way, short of an expert looking at it, to estimate of how much material would be lost?
I don''t know if this message was for me or for others on the board.. because I don''t know how to ans that...

I will take a breather and think about what everyone has said here. I do know that I will be selling it.. one way or another.. and I do know what I will do with some of the money.. I have been wanting a built in pool all this summer and it looks like I will be putting one in next year.... the rest will be put away for retirement.. invested some safe way...

THANK YOU EVERYONE.. I have emailed several sites and no one has ever returned my emails. I finally have an answer.. I hope you guys don''t mind later on down the road when I truely decide to sell it, if I email again on this board just to make sure I am doing the right thing.. I mean .. who to sell it to. getting another appraisal.. the correct one this time.. etc..

Thanks again and everyone have a safe Holiday weekend and let pray for all involved in the terrible Hurricane.. I have two family members that lost both their homes.. One just built and moved in 3 months ago and her daughter;s home was only 5 years old.. both gone under water ... They are ok and living in a hotel far up north in Louisiana..

 

[Dancing Fire]

chu1151
at 9.70mm your stone has the same diameter as my wife''s modern day ideal cut 3.34ct.i''ll take a wild guess if you have this stone recut into "ideal proportions" it would end up under 2.5ct.

i had this 1.47ct recut last yr.here''s the link.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-a-1-47-ct-60-60-stone-to-a-1-15-ct-after-the-recut-by-infinity-diamonds.24501/

 

[SquareCut]

Measurements    9.7mm x 5.3mm

I don''t think those are the diameter measurments. If it''s a round, the 5.3mm must be the depth.

 

[cflutist]

Here are some rough estimates if you were to recut your stone:

Given that the stone has a shallow depth percentage, you want to retain
as much of the depth as possible.

Assuming a 55% table and a 34.5% crown angle = 15.5% crown height + 43% pavillion + 2% girdle = 60.5% total depth

Current stone is 5.3mm deep divided by .605 = 8.76 mm new diameter

Plug this into the weight estimation formulas for a RB = 8.76 x 8.76 x 5.3 x .0061 = approx 2.48 cts after recut.

-----------------------------------

Assuming a 53% table and a 34.5% crown angle = 16.2% crown height + 43% pavillion + 2% girdle = 61.2% total depth

5.3 mm divided by .612 = 8.66 new diameter

8.66 x 8.66 x 5.3 x .0061 = 2.42 cts after recut.

Please remember these are just estimates. You really need to seek the advice of a diamond cutter.
Hope this helps.

Note: the crown height % was determined from a Crown Height Percentage Chart that I have which gives CHs based on different table sizes and crown angles.

 

[Nicrez]

Consider Auction houses for resale like Christie''s, Philips, or Sotheby''s. Becareful though of the 20% or higher fees for selling your item. If I were you, I would start a chart of possible buyers ofr the stone, and make a item by item list of what is the appraisal price estimate for each buyer, what they get in commission, fees, and what sort of guarantee they have on the sale or return of profit, as well as the terms of sale.

Good luck and personally, I would never sell the item. With age, diamonds seem to retain their value and increase, unlike other things. They don''t wither or decay, and are the most portable means of wealth that can be turned to liquid assets in a matter of a sale. Put it this way, if I was unfortunately in something like the devastation of Hurricane Katrina, I would grab my diamonds and run, knowing that somehow I would survive because that is the easiest thing to sell and for the most. After your house, your car, your clothes, your collector''s dolls or whatever people pool their wealth in are destroyed, diamonds will always sell to anyone for the highest amount in times of emergency...Try selling a rare sealed 1940''s action hero in times of crisis!

 

[valeria101]

Oh well... about the numbers and the recut: this is a forum much into H&A AGS000 diamonds (see in the tutorial what they are, if needed). Those come with different numbers that are branded and sold at a premium. That does not mean that your iamond is not desirable. It will not be sold as AGS0 - sure so - but it remains to see if it is worth recuting yours. The vast majority of diamons sold out there are not AGS0 and, as a private person not the owner of a shop marketing ''ideal cut diamonds'' - you may not benefit from that.

Just IMO.

I still think that going to an inddependent appraisar - the kind that sits with your explainng things and answering questions rather than sending paper via maill

- is what yu need.

And, honestly, I wish this appraiser could be taking pictures (some do, for the benefit of a complete representation of the item in their reports)... so we can see this ring too!

As said above on this thread, we don''t get these kind of cut around here too often. If your diamond gets ''green light'' from an appraiser, why not

About recuting (which I woul surely not rush into because 3 cts is a desirable thing, perhaps more so than some cut brand), only a cuter with the diamond in hand could posibly tell you what the recut may result into and, hopefully, if it is worth it.

On this forum, several posters had iamonds recut - some into ideal cuts, but I think all were diamodns smaller than yours and the question of end value of the opperation was not as central to the whole operation. At least one stone was not cut to fit the AGS0 definition of Ideal (now in a Beaudry ring, but I can''t remember the name of the poster!)

About these ideal standards: one thing needs reminding, I believe: THEY CHANGE. What if you do recut this diamond and in a short time the standard changes so the premium of ''ieal'' shifts to something else???? No one can put back what was cut out. This is likely right now because the largest gem lab, GIA, is still holding onto their ''ideal cut grades'' - aparently at least until next year. Not that I am sure these grades will ever come out - but for now, so they say.

All in all, what to do with this stone is not easy to establish without seeing it. This may be true for anyone - expert or not.

For me, it is not easy to tell what to do with it (certify, recut, hold or sell with or without any of the above) without knowing what opportunities for sale there are for you. The diamond would probably not be favored by the shoppers that visit this forum if it is not ideal cut.. but this is not the ultimate factor. Pricescope is nice

, but there is allot more besides it.

Just my 0.2, as usual.

 

[EZ]

Betty:

The quesion I asked on the rough estimate (great play on words cflutist) was asked of other members on the list. My wag of 20-30% seems to jibe with an actual recut (thanks for the info DF) and some other opinions.

Given the prices I saw on the search I am thinking much like Ana and Nicerez. Even if your stone appraises out as low as $20K then there is really not much financial incentive to get it recut. Since you are looking only from a financial standpoint, then keeping the larger size looks to be the prudent way to go. As others have recommended, I would also recommend talking to an appraiser. You mentioned being near Pittsburgh? There are appraisers in in Philly. Others that might be closer are in OH and MD. Some of them state that you can attend the appraisal session. (No need to let it out of your sight.)

There are a lot of people here that would love to see your ring if you can get pictures posted.

 

[Mara]

A thought re: recutting it into a brand like an Eighstsar is that if the average H&A online is going for $20k after recut (just a guesstimate to throw a # out there), well Eightsts command a premium in retail of up to 40% more. They also have controlled inventory of created Eightstars. So it MAY be that if this original poster gets a recut into an 8* then it would command significantly more than a regular H&A for resale. Of course it''s a different market than someone just searching for a ''big old rock'' which as Val points out, most of us here are cut nuts and look for the diamonds max performance through cut but 90% of the general buying public if not more would only see that it''s a 3c rock.

Hard to say but I agree if you can find a reputable independent appraiser (not belonging to a store) and have them sit down with you for an hour or so...it will probably enlighten you.

 

[chu1151]

EZ... The only picture I have right now if the one the appraiser took on the appraisal sheet. The ring is in a safe deposit box.. I will try and post next week sometime .. I just got a call not even a 1/2 hr ago that there was a death in my family. A very favorite aunt.. she lived a good live 94 yrs old.. but I will be attending her viewing and then funeral.. so hopefully I can get to the bank and get a picture for you guys... I don''t suppost the picture from the appraiser would work? I still want to show you the ring at different angles... so please stand by for a few days and I will try and get that over to you.. I did look for a local appriaser and I may contact one from silver springs Md.. Not really far from me and see what she says... thank you again...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hi Chu. You've been getting some great advice from our resident experts. Nice recut estimations, Cflutist.

I'll put in my two cents, as I always enjoyed recutting and reselling when I was dealing, and did quite a bit of it.

Your diamond is currently what is called in the trade a "spread make" with a shallow depth and large table, probably accompanied by a low crown height. This type of make was popular during the seventies, but is not as popular today, although it is still saleable. It's a cut that majors in brilliance (white light return) and minors in fire (colored light return). Some refer to them as "headlights".

By the way, I'd date this cut as probably being from the seventies, as spread makes were very rare (almost non-existent) in the late 40's, but extremely prevalent in the 70's. Additionally, stones cut in the late 40's would usually be earmarked as "transitional cuts" by most appraisers, and the fact that this appraiser didn't do so probably means the stone is a round brilliant cut from a later era than the 40's.

In my opinion, the benchmark value that a seller should base their decisions on is wholesale. Everything above that is a theoretical "profit", and everything below that is a theoretical "loss". Assuming your diamond is correctly graded, it appears that your appraiser used a 100% markup in arriving at the retail "insurance" value. In my opinion this is a bit excessive on a diamond of this high a value, and could possibly be a sign of an appraiser unfamiliar with true market values. To give you an example, I would use a 35% markup in figuring the retail replacement (insurance) value of a diamond of this value level ($38,500 versus $57,000).

I did a quick figuring of the diamond's wholesale value and came up with $26,000. Bear in mind that I've never seen your stone, so I don't accept any responsibility for this figure. It's merely a "guide" to give you some direction. It appears your appraiser came up with $28,500. So probably your wholesale value falls somewhere in that range. This is assuming of course that it is correctly graded. If your appraiser was off one color grade, the value would drop about 8.5%. If he was off one clarity grade, the value would drop about 23.8%. If he was off both one color and one clarity grade, the value would drop about 26.0%.

That's why everyone is recommending that you get it documented by a major gem laboratory whose grade nobody questions (like the GIA or AGS). A good alternate would be to have it documented and appraised by Dave Atlas's AGA firm in Philadelphia (www.gemappraisers.com), whose report is well known within the trade. It doesn't carry as much weight as the GIA or AGS, but will be correct in its grading. In addition, they will give you a realistic value, and possibly be even able to recommend a buyer.

Now an interesting thing about this stone is that recut with a fine make weight of approximately 2.5 carats, it is still worth about the same as it is now. You gain in value because of the finer make, but lose in value because of the lesser carat weight. There's a considerable per carat price jump at the 3 carat mark.

Still, it might be easier to sell as a "very good" or "very good to excellent", make, rather than the "fair" or "fair to good" commercial make it is now. If it were me, I'd try selling it "as is" first, and then recut it if I didn't have any luck.

This is a pretty decent chunk of change you've got in this diamond, Chu. If I owned it, I would have it documented by the GIA, and then try and get full wholesale for it by selling it through short-term consignment with a regional auction house of good repute, or through a savvy jeweler on mid-term consignment. You could also try selling it yourself through the classifieds. Some people have good results that way, especially with excellent documentation such as a GIA report and a credible appraisal. You could also try the AGA route. You would be perfectly safe with them, from beginning to end.

I agree with Carl (EZ), that you could probably do better with the cash from an investment standpoint than holding the diamond for potential increase. The key is to not sell the diamond short, but rather be patient and find the right buyer, or let a professional do the same and make a couple thousand profit for his trouble.

Good luck.

 

[elmo]

Rich, that''s a great post.

Another corner case that justifies talking with an experienced appraiser like Rich or Dave who has experience with recuts in addition to getting the GIA report would be if the clarity characteristics affect a potential recut in any way. For instance if your SI-1 might become VVS-2 with the recut to 2.5 ct. due to large feathers that would be removed; or the other way around e.g. that the inclusions would cause problems with getting 2.5 ct. and the yield would likely be less. Either case might affect the decision.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Good point, Elmo.

It's good to see the Hawaiian sun hasn't diminished your mental capacities in any way.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 9/3/2005 10:39:03 AM
Author: Mara
A thought re: recutting it into a brand like an Eighstsar is that if the average H&A online is going for $20k after recut (just a guesstimate to throw a # out there), well Eightsts command a premium in retail of up to 40% more. They also have controlled inventory of created Eightstars. So it MAY be that if this original poster gets a recut into an 8* then it would command significantly more than a regular H&A for resale. Of course it''s a different market than someone just searching for a ''big old rock'' which as Val points out, most of us here are cut nuts and look for the diamonds max performance through cut but 90% of the general buying public if not more would only see that it''s a 3c rock.

Hard to say but I agree if you can find a reputable independent appraiser (not belonging to a store) and have them sit down with you for an hour or so...it will probably enlighten you.

Mara
don''t forget....chu would need to invest close to $5k, to have this done.