shape
carat
color
clarity

Little help needed with table and depth size

BobGray

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
4
Hello all. First time posting but have been lurking around for a while absorbing as much info as I can before I tap into the treasure trove of knowledge that you all have! Officially in the market as of a few days ago for an engagement ring. Most important decision has been made and now I'm left with and equally important and nerve-racking decision: what diamond do I buy? As far as setting goes, I can't be too sure just yet but I have a few of her friends working on that aspect to try and pull it out of her secretly. But I do however know that a round cut diamond will be the cut of choice. As I have learned more and more about diamonds, I am beginning to understand just how important the cut is to the diamond and how is sparkles. Along with the cut, I have also been looking at terms such as "table" and "depth" and "Girdle", and how those 3 work together. Though I'm still new to these terms, I have to be honest, I am still quiet confused as to how I can understand what values both the table and depth and girdle should ideally be at. I have looked at the diamond search results page at pricescope, but I want to know how to undertand what setup of characteristics make a shimmering diamond on paper. Here is what I am looking for in a diamond and hopefully if anyone can help me with some table and depth values and what would look good, I would appreciate it. Basically I want it to shine and sparkle from a mile away :angel:

Budget for diamond only 10-20k

Carat .90-1.10

Color D-E

Clarity FL-IF

Polish EX

Sym EX

Cut EX

Table ?

Depth ?

girdle ?

Thankyou very much in advance to anyone who helps or gets the confusion straight for me. Getting to this process was the battle and I won. Now I just have to win the war and buy the perfect diamond :mrgreen:
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,225
Round diamond 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want? Well, we have tools to help you with that. But that is not enough.
What you need after that is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. All our best vendors do though.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. With AGS0 stones you don't strictly need an idealscope image. But getting one is nice to confirm performance and that is why almost all our best vendors provide them for you. Not all AGS0's are created the same though, so if you want to make sure it's the very best cut, post it and we'll evaluate it for you.

Generally you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.4. Crown angle 33.5-36. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-41 (there is a little give on this)

And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA does for you.

ON COLOR:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H in a round. But MANY people have happily bought white I or even J diamonds when trying to eek out a little more size.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

ON CLARITY:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/SI/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/ Generally we say that eyeclean SI1 and VS2 are as high as you need to go with round brilliants.


Okay?
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,225
You specs are WAY too conservative and will waste you a ton of money on things you can't see.

THere is no point in FL or VVS in a round. A VS2 that is eyeclean (and most are) is good enough.
And there is NOTHING wrong with F or G. So I highly suggest you consider expanding your color requirements.

I have an F. Most jewelers ask if it is a D. D and E are a waste of money.

You won't be able to tell the difference between an E or an F. You can put a bunch of them in a hat and pull them out and you will never be able to tell what each one is. The difference is minute.
 

WinkHPD

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,516
BobGray|1447999153|3951991 said:
Hello all. First time posting but have been lurking around for a while absorbing as much info as I can before I tap into the treasure trove of knowledge that you all have! Officially in the market as of a few days ago for an engagement ring. Most important decision has been made and now I'm left with and equally important and nerve-racking decision: what diamond do I buy? As far as setting goes, I can't be too sure just yet but I have a few of her friends working on that aspect to try and pull it out of her secretly. But I do however know that a round cut diamond will be the cut of choice. As I have learned more and more about diamonds, I am beginning to understand just how important the cut is to the diamond and how is sparkles. Along with the cut, I have also been looking at terms such as "table" and "depth" and "Girdle", and how those 3 work together. Though I'm still new to these terms, I have to be honest, I am still quiet confused as to how I can understand what values both the table and depth and girdle should ideally be at. I have looked at the diamond search results page at pricescope, but I want to know how to undertand what setup of characteristics make a shimmering diamond on paper. Here is what I am looking for in a diamond and hopefully if anyone can help me with some table and depth values and what would look good, I would appreciate it. Basically I want it to shine and sparkle from a mile away :angel:

Budget for diamond only 10-20k

Carat .90-1.10

Color D-E

Clarity FL-IF

Polish EX

Sym EX

Cut EX

Table ?

Depth ?

girdle ?

Thankyou very much in advance to anyone who helps or gets the confusion straight for me. Getting to this process was the battle and I won. Now I just have to win the war and buy the perfect diamond :mrgreen:

While I agree with much of what Gypsy has to say, especially the part about "Cut is King", I will not say that asking for a D-IF is a waste of money. Instead I would ask why do you ask for a D-IF?

If it is for the satisfaction of knowing that you are getting the very best, that is fantastic.

If it is because you think it will help the diamond sparkle better, then I have to side with Gypsy that you are spending money without need.

I just looked at two incredibly well cut diamonds. One was a 1.05 ct D-VS2 priced at just under $11,000. The other was a 1.09 D-IF priced at more than $25,000. If I put the diamonds on a slotted tray and did not tell you anything about them and asked you what you could tell about the diamonds, you might be able to tell me that one was a tiny bit larger than the other.

As for color or clarity, you would not be able to tell me anything with the unaided eye. Thus you would be spending $14,000 and change more for the D-IF than for the D-VS2. AND YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SEE THE REASON WHY. Since both are poster children for top cutting the sparkle will be identical. Since both are D color, there will be no difference in color to be seen. Since both are completely eye clean, there will be no eye visible difference to be seen.

Yet.

There is still that "mind clean" thing. If you want only the very best for your intended, not merely one that looks equally as brilliant and beautiful as the very best, then dig deep into your wallet and get what you want.

If what you want is something that sparkles like the band in a multitude of light sources, not just in the jeweler's klieg lights, then you can save considerable money going with a lower clarity, and even a lower color, provided the cut is still incredible, and save money to be spent on that new house, furniture, and of course, children if you choose.

The great thing is that you have choices. Gypsy is totally correct about cut being King. To me, staying with a top cut is the only choice. Since color and clarity are often not distinguishable to the unaided eye for one to three color grades and for up to five or six clarity grades, those become completely a matter of taste, desire and budget.

Wink
 

sharonyanddave

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Messages
78
Wink|1448030323|3952071 said:
If it is for the satisfaction of knowing that you are getting the very best, that is fantastic.

Not sure I would use the word 'best' but rarest is objective and accurate.

Most people on here go for what they can see "Size and Sparkle" but in other areas and cultures mind clean is given more importance then for the same money smaller with 'best' color and highest clarity might be favoured. With a very healthy budget one can go for both, but not many have such budget that they don't have to compromise.
 

BobGray

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
4
Apologies for the late response as I have been traveling for work.


I have to thank you all for your responses and help regarding my original post. In all honesty, the information that you guys have collectively responded with is exactly the information that I was hoping to find! I've always been a bit of a "if you have a chance to buy the best then do it" kind of person. That was my original reasoning for being on the picky side of my diamond choices but after reading your posts I can accept and be comfortable now looking at some other options and expand my choice range for the diamond!

Thanks again for the help and I greatly appreciative and thankful everyone!




And you bet....when I make the purchase I will be posting it on here!


Bob
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,225
Wink|1448030323|3952071 said:
BobGray|1447999153|3951991 said:
Hello all. First time posting but have been lurking around for a while absorbing as much info as I can before I tap into the treasure trove of knowledge that you all have! Officially in the market as of a few days ago for an engagement ring. Most important decision has been made and now I'm left with and equally important and nerve-racking decision: what diamond do I buy? As far as setting goes, I can't be too sure just yet but I have a few of her friends working on that aspect to try and pull it out of her secretly. But I do however know that a round cut diamond will be the cut of choice. As I have learned more and more about diamonds, I am beginning to understand just how important the cut is to the diamond and how is sparkles. Along with the cut, I have also been looking at terms such as "table" and "depth" and "Girdle", and how those 3 work together. Though I'm still new to these terms, I have to be honest, I am still quiet confused as to how I can understand what values both the table and depth and girdle should ideally be at. I have looked at the diamond search results page at pricescope, but I want to know how to undertand what setup of characteristics make a shimmering diamond on paper. Here is what I am looking for in a diamond and hopefully if anyone can help me with some table and depth values and what would look good, I would appreciate it. Basically I want it to shine and sparkle from a mile away :angel:

Budget for diamond only 10-20k

Carat .90-1.10

Color D-E

Clarity FL-IF

Polish EX

Sym EX

Cut EX

Table ?

Depth ?

girdle ?

Thankyou very much in advance to anyone who helps or gets the confusion straight for me. Getting to this process was the battle and I won. Now I just have to win the war and buy the perfect diamond :mrgreen:

While I agree with much of what Gypsy has to say, especially the part about "Cut is King", I will not say that asking for a D-IF is a waste of money. Instead I would ask why do you ask for a D-IF?

If it is for the satisfaction of knowing that you are getting the very best, that is fantastic.

If it is because you think it will help the diamond sparkle better, then I have to side with Gypsy that you are spending money without need.

I just looked at two incredibly well cut diamonds. One was a 1.05 ct D-VS2 priced at just under $11,000. The other was a 1.09 D-IF priced at more than $25,000. If I put the diamonds on a slotted tray and did not tell you anything about them and asked you what you could tell about the diamonds, you might be able to tell me that one was a tiny bit larger than the other.

As for color or clarity, you would not be able to tell me anything with the unaided eye. Thus you would be spending $14,000 and change more for the D-IF than for the D-VS2. AND YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SEE THE REASON WHY. Since both are poster children for top cutting the sparkle will be identical. Since both are D color, there will be no difference in color to be seen. Since both are completely eye clean, there will be no eye visible difference to be seen.

Yet.

There is still that "mind clean" thing. If you want only the very best for your intended, not merely one that looks equally as brilliant and beautiful as the very best, then dig deep into your wallet and get what you want.

If what you want is something that sparkles like the band in a multitude of light sources, not just in the jeweler's klieg lights, then you can save considerable money going with a lower clarity, and even a lower color, provided the cut is still incredible, and save money to be spent on that new house, furniture, and of course, children if you choose.

The great thing is that you have choices. Gypsy is totally correct about cut being King. To me, staying with a top cut is the only choice. Since color and clarity are often not distinguishable to the unaided eye for one to three color grades and for up to five or six clarity grades, those become completely a matter of taste, desire and budget.

Wink

Great post Wink. You are correct.
 

BobGray

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
4
16ocean|1448423487|3953859 said:
Where are you thinking of getting the diamond from?

So far I have been looking at some reviews and am leaning towards some retailers that are selling through the pricescope diamond search scanner. All seem to be reputable from what I have found so far and many members on here have had what seems to be great success and dealings with them.

Eternity, James Allen, Solomon Bros, B2C Jewels to name a couple.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
58,342
I would recommend only vendors that will supply images of the diamonds and light return images (idealscope or ASET). The ones I can think of off hand that provide those are the ones that specialize in ideal cut and super ideal cut stones in house: Good Old Gold, Whiteflash, Victor Canera, and High Performance Diamonds. Those with partial virtual inventories (many diamonds not in house but some have images and access to idealscope or ASET images): James Allen and B2C. Do not even look at ones that do not have pictures of the stones. It is not wise to buy a diamond blind.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,225
diamondseeker2006|1448494162|3954218 said:
I would recommend only vendors that will supply images of the diamonds and light return images (idealscope or ASET). The ones I can think of off hand that provide those are the ones that specialize in ideal cut and super ideal cut stones in house: Good Old Gold, Whiteflash, Victor Canera, and High Performance Diamonds. Those with partial virtual inventories (many diamonds not in house but some have images and access to idealscope or ASET images): James Allen and B2C. Do not even look at ones that do not have pictures of the stones. It is not wise to buy a diamond blind.


THIS. Absolutely.
 
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