Jeweler Experience - uggghhh!!!

[jdunn37]

I wanted to post my experience at a jeweler yesterday and get some people''s take.

I have being doing a lot of research on this site, the rest of the internet, and e-mailing some of the e-vendors, in my search for a 1ct Princess. Yesterday I went to a local Pop&Son jewelery store that I had some high hopes for.

Right of the bat, the guy tries to talk me out of platinum and into white gold. I told him that my GF asked for platinum so it didn''t much matter what he said, but he went on and on anyway. Anyone have any thoughts on why he would push so hard for this??

Second thing that sends up my warning flags, is that they don''t carry hardly any GIA stones, but EGL stones. They said they are the same quality, despite everything I''ve read on the internet. They said they pick EGL cause they get the stones back to them quicker. Are EGL reports just as good?

So then he shows me two stones. Summarized below.

.84ct E-VS1, Crown=9%, Depth=74%, Medium-Girdle, Length to Width was pretty square

1.01ct D-VS1, Crown=6%, Depth=80%, Medium-Girdle, Length 6.03, Width 5.64, This thing was a rectangle.

I could tell that the E was a brighter stone. It almost looked just as big as the 1ct also. The light reflections we much more prominent. I started to talk about the depth/crown/table %''s and the guy was giving me this "Oh all that is nonsense" attitude. He started talking about how the only thing that is important is how I think the stone looks. He kept saying not to get caught up in the numbers. This is what really irked me. Do they not acknowledge that cut has any affect on the stone, or are they trying to take me for a sucker who doesn''t do homework.

Next, I ask about any light return ratings like a BrillianceScope or IdealScope and they just looked at me like I was from another planet. They claimed that all that stuff is just a gimmick.

They were super nice, and had good prices from what I could tell. It''s a shame that they broke almost every piece of advice that I have read or recevied thus far. Is this typical of a local area jeweler? I hope not.

Sorry to vent for so long. Please comment away.

 

[strmrdr]

Is this typical of a local area jeweler?

No most are even worse in my area.

 

[princesslover]

Hi there,

same thing happened to me, and although it seems confusing, he''s a little right...

I just got my princess before Christmas from Dirt Cheap Diamonds - reason was that their prices were a lot better than anywhere else I found, and their service was so nice!

When it comes to princess cuts, you simply CANNOT judge the stone by numbers. The angles are not straight and therefor princesses with different numbers than the norm can be just as sparkly and perform just as nice than those with better numbers...
He''s right about seeing it for yourself!

The first stone looks brighter and bugger because of the smaller depth. 80% depth means it will be darker and also you lose a lot of the diameter, which is why the smaller stone looks just as big as the 1ct.

When it comes to Ideal scope and brilliance scope usage, a lot of people shy away from them when it comes to fancies, exactly for the reason that the results are unreliable because of the different angles.
My princess had a little more leakage on one side than the other, and people here advised me that it would have a dull patch on one side that would be no good...

Well, I had already ordered the stone and it was on the way to me, and I freaked out!
Luckily I wrote Dave Atlas an e-mail and he was so nice to give up his time to settle my nerves!
He told me that the irregular IS pattern could in fact ADD to the scintillation of the stone!

When I got it, it was clear that he was right! I also asked the independant appraiser about this "dull patch" and she just laughed...She said people get so hung up on numbers and how a stone looks through some machine that measures brilliance, light return and so on, that they forget to look at the stone and see if it looks good to the eye!..

I say, compare it to other princesses you see in different stores and make sure you get a full refund policy. That way you can return it if it doesn''t look the part in other lighting situations!
Beware of stores with halogen light bulbs...they can make any stone look great!

Last, why not try Dirt Cheap Diamonds? I can guarantee you''ll get a better deal AND they are 100% honest and reliable! I was between two stones differing $1000 in price, and they didn''t try to tell me to buy the more expensive one...They actually said you could confuse the two and wear both on different days and noone would be able to tell the difference!!

Haven''t met anyone else in this business who would do the same!!

Good luck!

 

[FireGoddess]

Hmmm...that experience sounds about right, unfortunately. It is true that numbers aside, you really have to SEE the stone and determine if it "speaks" to you. No numbers will tell you that, though they shouldn''t be disregarded altogether!!!

I think EGL USA reports are respected somewhat more than other EGL reports (Israel or Europe or something) or reports from institutions other than the GIA. EGL USA may be off a color grade or so, from what I understand.

I''m not sure why the jeweler was trying to talk you into white gold vs platinum. Maybe the profit margin is greater? Or you can come back to get rhodium plating for the gold. which you would not need for the platinum? My ring is platinum but my husband''s is white gold, because I think the white gold holds up more to physical abuse. But your girlfriend''s ring? She''s not doing construction work, is she?

FireGoddess

 

[IrishEyes]

Yup, this guy was trying to take you for a sucker (sorry!). He obviously does not have quality merchandise. Any respectable jeweler would be happy to show you an idealscope or brillancescope. If they don''t, they are hiding something, and they don''t want you to see their crappy stuff up close. Also, a good jeweler respects the fact that a customer knows what he/she wants. You told him you wanted platinum, he should not have argued with you. Perhaps he didn''t have any?? I am surprised he argued, because platinum is generally more expensive the WG, so he would''ve made more commission with that sale. Huh. I don''t know why he was resistant.

A good jeweler also respects a customer''s knowledge. In fact, they should embrace it. That is unless, of course, they are hiding something. He should have been happy you know about depth percentage and girdle and all that stuff. Most customers only know the 4 c''s. But his "that''s nonsense" reaction is not encouraging. Please don''t purchase from this store, I have a feeling you''ll regret it...

As for the EGL cert. vs. the GIA, I''ve heard GIA is more reputable, but I don''t know for sure. Can''t help you much on that one. Maybe one of our appraisers knows more? DenverAppraiser has helped me out in the past with questions. you could PM him maybe.

I would not give up my search! Your diamond is out there, and you''ll find it with a vendor that is knowledgeable and happy that you are too. Good Luck!!

 

[jenwill]

Another issue with the WG vx platinum is that perhaps they are not comfortable working with platinum. IF they donot have much experience working with it, they may not be comfortable offering it and would push WG. Perhaps?

 

[Brian Knox]

Date: 1/28/2005 12

6:48 PM
Author:jdunn37

...

It''s a shame that they broke almost every piece of advice that I have read or recevied thus far. Is this typical of a local area jeweler? I hope not.

...

Hi,

Actually with regard to ''needing to see Princess cuts'', what they are saying is factual.

With round brilliants, you can go by the numbers to a degree.

With princess cuts and most fancies, you need to see the stone.

 

[Asschman]

Irisheyes I would have to disagree about your stipulation that only qualified jewelers carry idealscope or brilliancescope equipment. It is fair to say that those are not embraced by everyone in the diamond industry, and just because a jeweler doesn''t carry them does not mean they are out to scam you. I have been to some jewelers in Washington DC that have competent, friendly staff but don''t use these items.

 

[jdunn37]

Thanks for the replies thus far...

I did notice that every setting in the case was white gold... He did say they would have to order platinum from their supplier... Maybe he was just trying to get rid of current inventory. He did ultimately say he would get whatever I wanted. My girlfriend works in an office, so I would think that platinum would be just fine. He mentioned that platinum would more maintenace during the life of the ring than WG. Is that true?

I definitely understand and agree that a Princess needs to be seen. That is why I would love you find a good local jeweler. I don''t want to spend 6 months visiting them all either.

I just found it disconcerning that they were so easy to dimiss any of the numbers. It was pretty obvious by sight that the one stone was affected by the 80% depth (6% crown), but they didn''t seem to want to agree. Not too mention that it was a rectangle which just looked kind of funny to me.

As far as GIA vs EGL goes. Almost everything I read or anyone I talk to, overwhlemingly proclaim GIA as the best. Is it best that I not budge on that detail?

I most likely won''t go back there, even though he took some specs I gave him to talk to his broker. They had a pretty lousy return policy also.

 

[princesslover]

Date: 1/28/2005 12:59:22 PM
Author: Asschman
Irisheyes I would have to disagree about your stipulation that only qualified jewelers carry idealscope or brilliancescope equipment. It is fair to say that those are not embraced by everyone in the diamond industry, and just because a jeweler doesn''t carry them does not mean they are out to scam you. I have been to some jewelers in Washington DC that have competent, friendly staff but don''t use these items.

I totally agree!
A lot of jewellers and appraisers will tell you, like I stated before, that IS and BS are gimmicks, and CAN be manipulated...

So, like I said before in my (very long, sorry...) post, go by the one that looks the best to you!

My princess "only" has a 9% crown height, and lots of people told me that would be too shallow...CRAP! I get comments ALL the time on how mine must be an excellent cut...and like previously stated, my ideal scope image was a little crooked in the leakage pattern...

EGL USA is well respected and there is no reason to pass a good stone for that reason. They actually give you more information about the angles, and are only very seldom off by a colour grade, which you will be able to make a determination of since you saw it in person...

 

[codex57]

What''s your budget? Personally, I prefer the comfort of GIA over EGL. The only other company I would pick if I couldn''t get a GIA cert would be AGS.

As for teh white gold vs plat argument, all the other jewelers I have talked to have told me the complete opposite.

All in all, I''d never go to that jeweler again. He sounds like the typical mall jeweler who only wants to sell you stock they have on hand and no matter how crappy it is, they''ll claim their stuff is excellent and anything else you''ve heard about is junk info if it doesn''t promote their stones.

I highly doubt his prices are any good either. The fact that he has a lousy return policy is a big red flag to me.

 

[jdunn37]

How can one tell between EGL and EGL USA... They only showed my a sticker on the "diamond bag" that said EGL. Should I have asked to see a more detailed report?

 

[IrishEyes]

Asschman: I think they way I worded that came across different from what I meant. I wasn''t saying that a store not having that equipment meant they are not good, but that the salesman saying that the bs and Is are just a ''gimmick'' is bothersome. While some people don''t consider the usage of that equipment to be necessary in the purchase of their diamonds, jdunn37 was curious about it and asked a question, to which he was kind of "blown off" by the jeweler who professed it was a gimmick. I do agree that you don''t necessarily have to use one when purchasing a diamond, but I DON''T think that they are a gimmick, and I was trying to say that to jdunn37. hope this clears up any confusion.....

 

[jdunn37]

Budget is about 8000-9000 for 1ct. stone and setting... Hoping to get a D-VS1 in a fairly simple platinum setting...

I purposefully stayed away from mall jewelers. This was a Father and Son business that I actually found when searching for diamonds on this site.

The 1.01 ct D-VS1 that I described above was $5400.... Again, I don''t think it was a good cut (whatever that means for a princess). I thought this was a little low for a D-VS1 based on what I''ve seen in regards to internet pricing.

 

[princesslover]

Date: 1/28/2005 1

4:33 PM
Author: jdunn37
Thanks for the replies thus far...

I did notice that every setting in the case was white gold... He did say they would have to order platinum from their supplier... Maybe he was just trying to get rid of current inventory. He did ultimately say he would get whatever I wanted. My girlfriend works in an office, so I would think that platinum would be just fine. He mentioned that platinum would more maintenace during the life of the ring than WG. Is that true?

I definitely understand and agree that a Princess needs to be seen. That is why I would love you find a good local jeweler. I don''t want to spend 6 months visiting them all either.

I just found it disconcerning that they were so easy to dimiss any of the numbers. It was pretty obvious by sight that the one stone was affected by the 80% depth (6% crown), but they didn''t seem to want to agree. Not too mention that it was a rectangle which just looked kind of funny to me.

As far as GIA vs EGL goes. Almost everything I read or anyone I talk to, overwhlemingly proclaim GIA as the best. Is it best that I not budge on that detail?

I most likely won''t go back there, even though he took some specs I gave him to talk to his broker. They had a pretty lousy return policy also.

Well, for me, if they have a lousy return policy, that does it!

Check out DCD or some of the other PS vendors - they are reputable, honest and have a full refund. DCD even refunds the return shipping charge!

And you''ll most likely get better cuts for a better price - DCD only has a 3% mark-up, and I don''t think any B&M stores can compete with that, since they have wages, rent etc. as overhead...

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 1/28/2005 1:19:19 PM
Author: jdunn37
How can one tell between EGL and EGL USA... They only showed my a sticker on the ''diamond bag'' that said EGL. Should I have asked to see a more detailed report?

Did they have a mini cert with a stone plot (drawing) to show the inclusions? Mine says EGL USA on that cert, and the girdle is inscribed EGL US and then a bunch of numbers.

I don''t think that you should necessarily veto any stone that is not GIA certified, but be conscientious. You might not want an I color stone from EGL USA if there''s a possibility it could be J or K instead...my EGL USA stone is a D color. Do I care if the GIA might grade it as an E? Nope.

FireGoddess

 

[amytude]

Well, jdunn, I''m having some pretty frustrating experiences, too. I am trying to pay attention to both the numbers and the way the stones look. When I begin to mention %ages and things like that, I typically get a similar reaction. When I back it up with WHY I don''t want such a depth (70% in an EC) then they are like "OH, sure, OK".

I''m about ready to chuck it all and buy off the net. Whenever possible, I try very hard to support local businesses, but it just seems as if no one in my area has the diamond for me. I''ve had jewelers who clearly prefer wg over platinum or vice-versa. I personally want wg b/c I don''t like the patina of platinum. Again, that''s your gf''s decision. Good luck to you--I''m sure with some time and patience, you''ll find the perfect stone!

 

[lostdog]

"That is why I would love you find a good local jeweler. I don''t want to spend 6 months visiting them all either. "

I did spend about 6 months visiting them all. One of the most disheartening things is that while you know which ones you don''t think you should trust, a frightening number of the ones that seem perfectly fine weren''t all that great either.

Once I knew what I was looking for and went to them and asked for a really well made stone, the friendly independant non-scary stores with nice people still didn''t manage to come up with anything all that great. (though they hint that for a LOT more money, maybe, "but that sort of thing is very rare and hard to find"....)

But completely aside from price, either they stock certain things and want to sell you those things regardless of what you want, or they order in. And then, in my experience, they get on memo 3 stones, typically one of which is small and not that good, and one of which is about-sort-of-like what you asked for but not anything special, and one of which is really good looking and about 15% larger than what you asked for. The whole thing set up as a false choice so that if you want quality, it''s the largest stone and to get it you have to break your budget.

(The other plot that got on my nerves was pricing the diamond lower, so it looks like a deal, but the setting higher. Prices for a setting (absolutely the same one, a simple common setting in platinum) came back as $300, $600, and over $1000 at different places. Diamond prices at those stores ran in inverse order, and total price was essentially the same. It''s like trying to trade in a used car. And not one of them had a return or trade or buyback on the ring. You set it, you own it. Your intended wants a different style, melt it down or make a key chain out of it. Place your bet.)

They want to give you the least information possible to make a deal, and do it all on "trust", you trusting them. I would think you''d want to sell really good merchandise and use maximum information to educate consumers as to what is "good", so they feel comfortable for a reason.

Maybe one B&M I visted really had top quality in stock. Some branded, some not. They were doing no favors to anybody on prices, but they did make an attempt on offering information and viewing stones and were truthful about the factual issues. They were too darn cryptic on price and never followed up with stones they said they were "getting next week", so I let that one drop.

Still, my usual approach in the stores is to say as little as possible and let them talk themselves out. The saleslady at the "good" B&M threw everything in the book at me, a real checklist of possible "soft" reasons to buy. I wish I had written it down.

But I also found it useful once I knew more than the bare basics to ask a question that gives the sales staff a chance to lie to you, where the convenient answer isn''t the right one. That can be very telling if they tell you "facts" that clearly aren''t.

 

[realron75]

Just buy online. I''m buying a 1.44 carat G, VS1 princess from Whiteflash that with the setting is at least $2,500-$3,000 better than a B&M store can give me. Plus the cut I''m cutting from whiteflash is much better, i.e. 66% table vs a 77% at the B&M store. Remember no sales tax too.

 

[realron75]

Meant to say the cut I''m getting not the cut I''m cutting! Sorry.

 

[Asschman]

Date: 1/28/2005 1:23:42 PM
Author: IrishEyes
Asschman: I think they way I worded that came across different from what I meant. I wasn''t saying that a store not having that equipment meant they are not good, but that the salesman saying that the bs and Is are just a ''gimmick'' is bothersome. While some people don''t consider the usage of that equipment to be necessary in the purchase of their diamonds, jdunn37 was curious about it and asked a question, to which he was kind of ''blown off'' by the jeweler who professed it was a gimmick. I do agree that you don''t necessarily have to use one when purchasing a diamond, but I DON''T think that they are a gimmick, and I was trying to say that to jdunn37. hope this clears up any confusion.....

No problemo. To be honest, during my visits to most B&Ms I don''t even bother to get into the nitty gritty about light return, table percentages, etc etc, cause of the sometimes prickly reaction you get. That is another point in the Internet vendors favor in my opinion.

 

[solange]

After an exhaustive search in the New York Diamond District, I had almost given up on buying a new ring for our Anniversary. I got so much pressure and conflicting information and I could not get straight answers. They just wanted to sell me what they had or could get easily.
There are some very highly regarded Pricescope vendors there but I did not know of them at the time.
I found I could get the most persoal treatment and the best information and prices from Whiteflash. I bought a beautiful ring from them and I got an excelent price.
I am sure Dirt Cheap Diamonds and several of the other highly regrarded vendors will give you excellent service as well.
I found it was much easier dealing with Lesley and Brian at Whiteflash by phone than having direct contact with someone who was trying to convince me that if I did not buy what they had, I did not know what I wanted.
Also, Pricescope vendors have access to stones from all over and those who do not drop ship examine the stone to make certain it meets specifications for an attractive stone in that particular cut rather than just trying to make you accect what they want to get rid of.
I am sure that there are many private B&M's who value their customers and guide them well but if you do not think this is one of them, I would move on.
Best of luck.

 

[lostdog]

"I am sure that there are many private B&M's who value their customers and guide them well but if you do not think this is one of them, I would move on."

How about a grading system for jewelers instead of for diamonds........?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/28/2005 5

7:58 PM
Author: crankydave
Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind as not being publically graded are consumers.

Dave

Sure we are the some vendors around here grade me as a class AAA++ PIB type 4c000ideal
I wouldnt disagree LOL

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 1/28/2005 4:45:51 PM
Author: lostdog

''I am sure that there are many private B&M''s who value their customers and guide them well but if you do not think this is one of them, I would move on.''

How about a grading sytem for jewelers instead of for diamonds........?

I would be really curious what y''all would consider to be the characteristics of an ideal jeweler. Would anyone care to describe a perfect jeweler?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[sahmama]

Sadly, this all sounds too familiar. My dh and I bought an upgrade ring from a well-respected, independent local jeweler four years ago. We had the center princess stone set in a semi-mount with half-moons. All was good until I dropped the ring about 6 months ago and lost one side stone. Took it back to the original jeweler who took FOREVER to get back to me with really high prices on side stone replacements. When I balked at the prices, they recommended replacing with cz for now, then I could replace with diamonds when I got my tax refund. Then after three more weeks, they said they could not get cz in half moon shapes

and got really snotty with me.

On to jeweler # two. They said they could remove the remaining half moon and ship it to a cutter, who could cut a match to it and save me $. Okay. When they went to pop the stone, it was chipped, probably happened when I dropped it, all stones had thin girdles. Then they noticed the center stone was cracked also, way down in a corner hidden by a prong almost. They were very helpful getting an estimate to my ins. and removed the stones which I returned to my ins. co, and I had a check to spend a week later, but I had since found Pricescope and was being much pickier. I decided I wanted to replace the center with a cushion and not a princess. It took them over three weeks to get in ONE STONE to look at, no selection. My dh got p.o''ed and demanded they give me my setting back. It looked like someone had chewed on it, all toolmarked terribly on the prongs.

Jeweler no. three was also a mom ''n pop indy place. Very nice at first. Got in a stone to look at, not "the one." Got in a second stone, too rectangular. Asked for a third or fourth option, possibly together, they said they''d "call us," two weeks went by and not a word. We''re talking $10-12K sale here too!

Finally found "my" jeweler, a local with a website. Had him bring in two stones I found on his website, selected one. He brought in two sets of half moon sides for me to select from. Got to talk to the on-site bench jeweler who set my stones. Found that my original jeweler had used some white gold in setting my center stone! He was also appalled at the tool marks made by jeweler #2 and said he thinks they had no intention of me re-using my setting, but he fixed it as best he could since I''m sentimental and wanted to keep this setting.

The sad part is, jewelers 1-3 are the most well-respected ones in my city and regularly patronized by all the richer folks here. I guess they don''t know how bad they are getting screwed. I had assumed as long as you didn''t go to a maul store you were safe, but apparently not. I like to support local business too, even if it costs a bit more and the taxes too, but if I hadn''t found my jeweler when I did, I would have been an internet customer.

To me, an "ideal" jeweler would be someone that LISTENS (if I say I like square cushions, don''t memo in a rectangle!), returns phone calls and keeps promises, and is willing to deal with educated consumers instead of putting down their knowledge. They should not fear the internet, but have confidence that their face to face skills will get and keep their customers.

 

[pqcollectibles]

I was in a B&M that carries HOF diamonds last weekend. A young sales clerk eagerly showed me the Hearts and Arrows in one of the HOF diamonds with an H&A viewer, but she could not tell me why the patterns were there. She looked at me like I was speaking Greek when I mentioned internal optical symmetry. I didn''t even dare go into crown and pavillion angles combinations with her.

 

[Maxine]

I went into a mall store during the holidays, just looking at some diamond bands....When I asked her about the quality (color,clarity - forget CUT!!), she said "I don''t know much about those things!"

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/28/2005 6:47:14 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 1/28/2005 4:45:51 PM
Author: lostdog

''I am sure that there are many private B&M''s who value their customers and guide them well but if you do not think this is one of them, I would move on.''

How about a grading sytem for jewelers instead of for diamonds........?

I would be really curious what y''all would consider to be the characteristics of an ideal jeweler. Would anyone care to describe a perfect jeweler?

Neil would you like me to post my Bio?

 

[denverappraiser]

Garry,

I was actually hoping to hear from some consumers on this one. I was pretty vague about terms like ‘perfect’ and ‘jeweler’ because people have differing opinions on these things.

Jewelers are in a real bind because of conflicting demands by varying consumers. The core of the problem is that people want cheap prices and they will flock to stores that deliver them. I understand, I do it in my own shopping habits. This means that the stores must compromise in order to bring down their costs and retain their customers. The real question is compromise what? Profit? There’s nothing like enough of it. The owners of a store doing $2,000,000/year in business are doing pretty well to actually make $100,000 in profit. Most aren’t nearly this successful and $2M is a pretty big store. No profit equals corporate death and no store at all. There may be a little room here but mostly this is already gone. Other areas to consider a compromise:

Employee pay & benefits
Employee training
Rent and similar costs associated with maintaining the facilities.
Support offered to customers.
Product quality

Demanding lower costs from their suppliers or finding different suppliers is always an issue. The supplier, of course, it nothing but another business that has the same sorts of issues and must make the same kinds of compromises and it actually gets worse when you look at the suppliers. Lower prices or die. Many are dead already, most are dying.

There are some very smart people who expend serious brain power worrying about these issues. People can and do get MBA’s in this. The most successful jeweler on the planet wasn’t even in the business 20 years ago - Wal-Mart. They are masters of this dance and they don’t even pretend to know about jewelry. I’ll be surprised if anyone here lists them as their example of the perfect jeweler but the vote that counts is made with a customers feet and their pocketbooks. Wal-Mart, QVC, Costco, and Target are kicking butt while specialty jewelry stores are going broke.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver