Is leakage the

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/9/2010 6:17:02 PM
Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 4/9/2010 6:13:51 PM

Author: dreamer_d

Stone, just because you recall everything you learned in highschool math does not mean all of us do

I bet I recall some things from highschool that you have forgotten.

I learnt all those formulas in high school and used them in univerity regularly. I haven''t had a need to use them in my daily life and job - hence, forgotten a lot of them. I don''t think that makes me an idiot but maybe a little forgetful.

Ok, my bad, sorry. I read it like you guys do not even know of the equations.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/9/2010 6:48:24 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 4/9/2010 6:17:02 PM
Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 4/9/2010 6:13:51 PM

Author: dreamer_d

Stone, just because you recall everything you learned in highschool math does not mean all of us do

I bet I recall some things from highschool that you have forgotten.

I learnt all those formulas in high school and used them in univerity regularly. I haven''t had a need to use them in my daily life and job - hence, forgotten a lot of them. I don''t think that makes me an idiot but maybe a little forgetful.

Ok, my bad, sorry. I read it like you guys do not even know of the equations.

I have *no idea* if I ever learned any of that stuff. Although I got As in hs math, I promptly forgot all of it. You have to cut the mortals some slack

What country are you in Stone?

 

[clgwli]

Date: 4/9/2010 6:44:19 PM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 4/9/2010 6:28:37 PM
Author: clgwli

Date: 4/9/2010 6:20:22 PM
Author: dreamer_d

CL I you think consumers who come here for help should be given different advice, then post in RT and give them the advice you want!

I really honestly do not understand what you are saying here. I said in my last post that I think a lot of those who help here do not listen to what the consumer wants and push their ideals sometimes more than what the consumer wants. That's an observation in a nutshell.

Again I do not care for RB so I do not feel the desire to post advice for them. I was making a general observation about when someone asks for example a 1.5 carat RB G and above in color and VS1 and above in clarity. Their priority in order is size, clarity cut then color. I have seen more than once here that people push for the ideal cuts and suggest a lower color and clarity to achieve this in their budget. But you see, they did not even include any comments on cut in their equation? How are we to help them when they have left out an important determinant of price?? I know I am not the only one who has seen this and it does make me wonder if this forum is to help find the best diamond for the person or if people think their views are always right for everyone.

And yes my comments are straying from the original topic, but it is an observation I have noticed about this place since I found it. Yes there are a lot of helpful people here, but I also feel that there is a lot of people who snub their noses at something below ideal.

I meant that it is easy to sit back and point fingers and say 'You over there, doing all the work, you are doing it wrong and you should do it in another way!' It is something entirely different to actually participate and help people and see that it is not always easy to give what you think if helpful and good advice. It is difficult to try to do your best and then have lurkers come out and say you are flagrantly ignoring what a poster might want or need. If you think it should be done a different way, then come and help. Do not just point a finger and say that we are all doing a crummy job and are leading consumers astray.

As someone who regularly posts in RT to help people because I like to, and because I like diamonds, not because I get anything in return, I find your statements so insulting!

I have typed and retyped a response to you more than once and I cannot get it right.

Don't be insulted is all I can say.

This was a big bold step for me to take and you just made me realize why I am always afraid to post these kinds of things on any thread. Because if a generalization will insult you so badly, I can't imagine what a post on a specific thread will do to you or others.

I cannot spend my time to look at every single thread. I have a child to watch during the day and only get bursts of time here. I am not even sure what you are referring to in your red comment. I have a feeling you are thinking of threads I may not have even seen.

They weren't directed at YOU so there is no way you should feel insulted. I honestly cannot even place you on any threads. That isn't bad, just how it is. This is a big community.

And now I will go away. I was trying to be nice about things and I realize my opinions are not welcome.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/9/2010 6:54:01 PM
Author: dreamer_d

I have *no idea* if I ever learned any of that stuff. Although I got As in hs math, I promptly forgot all of it. You have to cut the mortals some slack

What country are you in Stone?

Ok, ok... SORRY!

Singapore.

We are under the British education system (GCE) so our education syllabus is rigid and uniform with other countries under that system.

 

[elle_chris]

I''m not going to comment on leakage vs perfect cut as my preference is a balance of all the C''s.

If I have to sacrifice a perfect cut, so be it, as I don''t see the difference between something close to ideal and ideal anyway. I say this after viewing hundreds of stones in the DD district in nyc over the last few years and using some of the tricks I''ve learned here. That''s not to say there aren''t ugly stones. There are, and there''s a ton of them out there. But there''s alot of beauties as well that I don''t think would get the PS approval because a number can be slightly off.
But I actually agree with this method as we can''t see the stones. So the safest option is to point a consumer to diamonds we know are going to be beautiful. I also don''t think there''s anything wrong with that.

But sometimes, I do wonder how many diamonds people here that keep pushing for ideals have really seen. I''m not talking about mall stores. Rather go out to a diamond district in your area, ask to see GIA excellents, very goods, and good. Ask to see them by the window,take it away from the bright jewelry store lights, put them in different environments and compare them. I bet very few here have done that (aside from the experts), and yet most have just jumped on the ideal bandwagon based on on what they''ve read here, or because their first diamond wasn''t exactly pretty so their ideal of course outshines it. In fact, I''d bet that most people here woudn''t even be able to tell the difference between an ideal and an excellent.

I''m not coming down on anyone. I still think for a consumer coming here looking for advice before they make a purchase, the safest bet is to point them to the vendors here who we know carry amazing stones. But I also don''t think it''s not fair to assume that whomever buys a diamond at a local b&m got a dog and/or ripped off. Also, if someone already purchased a stone, unless they specifically ask what we think, i see no reason for anyone to rip it apart or ask if it can be returned, or tell them they have the option to recut it. Remember, they bought the stone because they thought it was pretty when we haven''t even seen it. E-rings really are an emotional purchase, I think we should be more careful when giving advice about things that weren''t asked.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/9/2010 11:26:07 AM
Author: clgwli

Date: 4/9/2010 10:42:38 AM
Author: Demon
There''s something I''ve been wondering about for a while now.....at what point does leakage become detectable to the average (if there is such a thing) naked eye?

I realize some will say to me that an ideal diamond will show the least mount of everythig and blah blah... but what happens when the person is not a fan of the ideal cuts for other reasons? Is that really such a bad thing?

then you buy a deeper cut for less money and lose some diameter.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 4/9/2010 6:36:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Sara- by eye I''d say 64% table

Charmy- my intent is an informative discussion.
Hopfully your post was not aimed at me.
1) There is leakage in EVERY diamond.
2) if a photo of a diamond depicts a problem, I''d describe what I saw

My post is not directly aimed at you. I am just adding some light humour to the thread.

 

[phildominator]

Date: 4/9/2010 7:00:08 PM
Author: elle_chris
Remember, they bought the stone because they thought it was pretty when we haven''t even seen it.

What a convoluted situation. How do you tell someone that it''s not pretty, when they think it''s pretty? Secondly, if someone thinks they bought a pretty diamond, then why are they asking others if it''s pretty?

How do PSers know the ''credibility'' of someone''s opinion of ''pretty''? A diamond purchaser could say their diamond is gorgeous, but they''ve been influenced by the salesperson''s talk, the store''s special lighting conditions, etc...

I cleaned my room; it was immaculate. I was so proud of how clean my room was. I then bragged to my dad and wanted to show him how clean my room was. He puts on his white glove, lifts up my radio and wipes up the dust under the radio. "No, son, it''s not clean."

Who''s right? Is the room clean? Was my dad a jerk for telling me it wasn''t clean?

 

[Lula]

Date: 4/9/2010 6:56:46 PM
Author: clgwli

Date: 4/9/2010 6:44:19 PM

Author: dreamer_d

Date: 4/9/2010 6:28:37 PM

Author: clgwli

Date: 4/9/2010 6:20:22 PM

Author: dreamer_d


CL I you think consumers who come here for help should be given different advice, then post in RT and give them the advice you want!

I really honestly do not understand what you are saying here. I said in my last post that I think a lot of those who help here do not listen to what the consumer wants and push their ideals sometimes more than what the consumer wants. That''s an observation in a nutshell.



Again I do not care for RB so I do not feel the desire to post advice for them. I was making a general observation about when someone asks for example a 1.5 carat RB G and above in color and VS1 and above in clarity. Their priority in order is size, clarity cut then color. I have seen more than once here that people push for the ideal cuts and suggest a lower color and clarity to achieve this in their budget. But you see, they did not even include any comments on cut in their equation? How are we to help them when they have left out an important determinant of price?? I know I am not the only one who has seen this and it does make me wonder if this forum is to help find the best diamond for the person or if people think their views are always right for everyone.


And yes my comments are straying from the original topic, but it is an observation I have noticed about this place since I found it. Yes there are a lot of helpful people here, but I also feel that there is a lot of people who snub their noses at something below ideal.

I meant that it is easy to sit back and point fingers and say ''You over there, doing all the work, you are doing it wrong and you should do it in another way!'' It is something entirely different to actually participate and help people and see that it is not always easy to give what you think if helpful and good advice. It is difficult to try to do your best and then have lurkers come out and say you are flagrantly ignoring what a poster might want or need. If you think it should be done a different way, then come and help. Do not just point a finger and say that we are all doing a crummy job and are leading consumers astray.


As someone who regularly posts in RT to help people because I like to, and because I like diamonds, not because I get anything in return, I find your statements so insulting!

I have typed and retyped a response to you more than once and I cannot get it right.


Don''t be insulted is all I can say.


This was a big bold step for me to take and you just made me realize why I am always afraid to post these kinds of things on any thread. Because if a generalization will insult you so badly, I can''t imagine what a post on a specific thread will do to you or others.


I cannot spend my time to look at every single thread. I have a child to watch during the day and only get bursts of time here. I am not even sure what you are referring to in your red comment. I have a feeling you are thinking of threads I may not have even seen.


They weren''t directed at YOU so there is no way you should feel insulted. I honestly cannot even place you on any threads. That isn''t bad, just how it is. This is a big community.


And now I will go away. I was trying to be nice about things and I realize my opinions are not welcome.

Every forum has its own personality. Questioning super-ideals on RT can be a little like starting a thread on a wine forum stating that your no-vintage 2 buck Chuck is just as good as a 1982 Chateau Marguax. I would expect to get a little flak for a statement like that, especially if you didn''t provide some evidence for your argument in terms that make sense to wine lovers.

People here are passionate about diamond cut, and, just like wine aficionados, things get a little heated when the qualities of their objects of affection are debated.

I don''t always agree with what''s said on RT, but I do learn a lot. And I also notice that the folks on RT aren''t hanging out on the Timeless Classics forum dissing OEC''s. Different strokes...

 

[Lula]

Date: 4/9/2010 7:53:35 PM
Author: phildominator

Date: 4/9/2010 7:00:08 PM

Author: elle_chris

Remember, they bought the stone because they thought it was pretty when we haven''t even seen it.

What a convoluted situation. How do you tell someone that it''s not pretty, when they think it''s pretty? Secondly, if someone thinks they bought a pretty diamond, then why are they asking others if it''s pretty?


How do PSers know the ''credibility'' of someone''s opinion of ''pretty''? A diamond purchaser could say their diamond is gorgeous, but they''ve been influenced by the salesperson''s talk, the store''s special lighting conditions, etc...


I cleaned my room; it was immaculate. I was so proud of how clean my room was. I then bragged to my dad and wanted to show him how clean my room was. He puts on his white glove, lifts up my radio and wipes up the dust under the radio. ''No, son, it''s not clean.''


Who''s right? Is the room clean? Was my dad a jerk for telling me it wasn''t clean?

Perhaps it''s a little like the dodo bird verdict:

In Lewis Carroll''s Alice''s Adventures in Wonderland (1865), at a certain point a number of characters become wet. In order to dry themselves, the Dodo decided to issue a competition. Everyone was to run around the lake until they were dry. Nobody cared to measure how far each person had run, nor how long. When they asked the Dodo who had won, he thought long and hard and then said "Everybody has won and all must have prizes." (from Wikipedia)

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/9/2010 7:53:35 PM
Author: phildominator

Date: 4/9/2010 7:00:08 PM

Author: elle_chris

Remember, they bought the stone because they thought it was pretty when we haven''t even seen it.

What a convoluted situation. How do you tell someone that it''s not pretty, when they think it''s pretty? Secondly, if someone thinks they bought a pretty diamond, then why are they asking others if it''s pretty?


How do PSers know the ''credibility'' of someone''s opinion of ''pretty''? A diamond purchaser could say their diamond is gorgeous, but they''ve been influenced by the salesperson''s talk, the store''s special lighting conditions, etc...

I cleaned my room; it was immaculate. I was so proud of how clean my room was. I then bragged to my dad and wanted to show him how clean my room was. He puts on his white glove, lifts up my radio and wipes up the dust under the radio. ''No, son, it''s not clean.''

Who''s right? Is the room clean? Was my dad a jerk for telling me it wasn''t clean?

Nay, your dad is a drill sergeant. :p

 

[kenny]

Date: 4/9/2010 7:53:35 PM
Author: phildominator
I cleaned my room; it was immaculate. I was so proud of how clean my room was. I then bragged to my dad and wanted to show him how clean my room was. He puts on his white glove, lifts up my radio and wipes up the dust under the radio. ''No, son, it''s not clean.''

Who''s right? Is the room clean? Was my dad a jerk for telling me it wasn''t clean?

I love this topic.
I think it is all about how we think.
Our brains are lazy and make gray things black and white.
It''s easier that way.

Also often "reality" is just nothing more than wide agreement.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 4/9/2010 6:48:24 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 4/9/2010 6:17:02 PM
Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 4/9/2010 6:13:51 PM

Author: dreamer_d

Stone, just because you recall everything you learned in highschool math does not mean all of us do

I bet I recall some things from highschool that you have forgotten.

I learnt all those formulas in high school and used them in univerity regularly. I haven't had a need to use them in my daily life and job - hence, forgotten a lot of them. I don't think that makes me an idiot but maybe a little forgetful.

Ok, my bad, sorry. I read it like you guys do not even know of the equations.

I most certainly was taught these formulas/equations in my high school geometry. At age 14, we are in junior high or high school, depending on the school system. I was making a joke, I thought, about my current familiarity with using my high school geometry. I had no reason to use it during my graduate school training as a mental health therapist. OTOH, I had to be well grounded in statistics. If you are from GB, and I don't know if you are, I had hoped that you would pick up on the Top Gear reference

OK, friends again

 

[Hest88]

Obviously this thread has gone far beyond the initial questions posed so...

Here''s where I, a long-time PScoper and, prior to that, a long time other diamond forum poster, land on this the issue of advising newbies. (I''m not trotting out my length of stay as evidence of credentials at all, BTW; I''m merely establishing how long this consumer has been around watchng advice on stone selection be given to newbies.)

I have to admit I roll my eyes sometimes when someone comes on with a done-deal or a nearly done deal stone and we go to extremes by suggesting they forfeit a deposit to buy a super-ideal or spend the time and money to get a stone re-cut. In the real world, a couple hundred dollars is a substantial amount of money. In the real world, the different between a perfect H&A vs. a near miss H&A is basically non-existent. In the real world, a guy will often choose the security of an in-person jeweler over a remote one, no matter what a bunch of Internet people say. Heck, in the real world, a girl goes giddy over what she thinks of as a large, white, clear stone, and never has the chance to compare it side-by-side to a super-ideal or the education to realize if anything is wrong.

That said, I also agree that in the absence of direct information, the numbers and stats are the safest route for us to go. Stats are black and white. If we can''t see a stone, the easiest thing to do is present the ideal scenario and the ideal proportions. I love the HCA because it''s simple and you don''t need to have an expert''s eye or compare dozens of stone in person to eliminate poor performers. It, and others that allow us to evaluate a stone objectively, are wonderful for making the complicated "C" of ''cut'' as easy to understand as the codification around the other three Cs. However, we just need to remember that, like judging a woman by proportions or even a photo alone--and not allowing for that ineffable factor of charm or personality or shared history--stats are not the end all and be all of what may make a diamond attractive.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/9/2010 2:49:38 PM
Author: clgwli

I have seen time and time again someone post a decent stone (not super ideal) and posters come in here and say that they''d pass because it is not super ideal. Unless asked, they do not explain why they pass on the stone. Sometimes posters here even ignore that the person is saying they want one of the 3 other Cs other than cut and tell people to sacrifice what they want just to get a super ideal diamond.

No one is ever going to say that an average cut is the same as a super ideal, but in the fairness of being a consumer, don''t you think it is right to acknowledge that a diamond that is not a super ideal can be beautiful too? I have been given the impression from many that unless it is a RB AGS0 that a diamond is not worth purchasing.

I found this forum to learn even more about gems. And something I think that is forgotten is that not everyone finds cut to be #1 on their list. It may be 2 or 3 and honestly that SHOULD be fine. Yes you can show the differences in diamonds, but if that is what the person is looking for then pushing an ideal or saying ''Lower you color, clarity and carat size and you can get X ideal cut'' is not helpful either.

Cowering back into my cave now

but what good would that do for the consumer even if he/she was looking at a D IF stone?

 

[kenny]

Problem: Picking a diamond you cant see.
Solution: Cut evaluation tools

If there are tools that help pick a well-cut round I'm going to use them.
I don't care if this rejects possibly-beautiful stones.
I just don't care.
Not my problem.

I only care about the one I buy being as good as possible.
Being stuck with those stones is the seller's problem. (Psssst, Yo seller, stop buying them)

When I select tomatoes I do not feel sorry for the green ones, the over-ripe ones or the rotten ones.
I have a right to pick the best.
Imagine if the grocer chased after me with recipes for over-ripe tomatoes.
He'll insist that "some people prefer over-ripe tomatoes."
"Ripeness is relative."
"You can not scientifically prove one ripeness is better than the other."
If you make the mistake of trying to explain what criteria you use to select a tomato, he'll talk you in circles and try to confuse you.
He wants to sell ALL his tomatoes.
Sound familiar?

Sure, it is possible that someone may actually prefer a stone I reject for cut. (though it is likely because they have never seen good cut)
There are people who prefer a J to a D. (though it is likely they prefer the size of the J they can afford to the size of the D they can afford)

For the vast majority of newbies recommending HCA and Idealscope pics is the way to pick a round you can't see, and I will continue to recommend them.
Does that mean people who got an HCA 2.4 should give up and kill themselves? Oh whatever. Gimme a break.

Again, if some vendor gets his panties in a wad because the diamonds in their inventory are being passed up that's not my problem.
What is this "Equal Rights for All Diamonds?"

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/9/2010 5:12:41 PM
Author: sarap333
...and there might be some leakage here...

I don''t think the leakage is as ''bad'' as the photo of the stone posted earlier, but I do think this stone leaks, meaning, in my definition, that light going into the stone is exiting out the bottom or the sides of the stone rather than the top of the stone. And I also think that the cut is typical of what most retail stores sell (non-H&A or ''Traditional'' symmetry).

For reasons already mentioned by some others I will not be joining this debate.

But this is a rough estimate of the diamond from craigslist.
It coud be GIA Very Good / AGS 6

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/9/2010 7:00:08 PM
Author: elle_chris

I''m not coming down on anyone. I still think for a consumer coming here looking for advice before they make a purchase, the safest bet is to point them to the vendors here who we know carry amazing stones. But I also don''t think it''s not fair to assume that whomever buys a diamond at a local b&m got a dog and/or ripped off. Also, if someone already purchased a stone, unless they specifically ask what we think, i see no reason for anyone to rip it apart or ask if it can be returned, or tell them they have the option to recut it. Remember, they bought the stone because they thought it was pretty when we haven''t even seen it. E-rings really are an emotional purchase, I think we should be more careful when giving advice about things that weren''t asked.

they usually do,so i tell them the truth

if he/she had purchased a poorly cut stone. why lie ??

 

[Cehrabehra]

I have mixed feelings on leakage and for me it depends on the setting the stone is in.

My diamond definitely has leaky bits and before it was set those bits (even when worn on the finger in the holder thingy) made the stone absolutely glow in a way I don''t see rounds do. Not only did light go out on my finger in wonderful little rainbows on my hand, but it came IN from the sides and refracted back out the top and was a little sculpture - a work of art.

In the setting it is in - it suffers. It doesn''t get light from underneath and it isn''t nearly as happy. Don''t get me wrong - it''s a cushion and its beautiful and I get compliments and it holds its own just fine, but it doesn''t do what it did before it was set. I now see that my stone needs something totally different than what I hypothesized it needed.

A round stone does very well in a dark closed setting - and the better the cut, the more irrelevant it is to get light from underneath. If I were to have a bezel set stone I would probably not go with anything but a really tight round.

When I designed my setting it was because I loved my stone so much - I wanted 8 prongs to protect it from every angle and a mirrored surface to reflect "lost" light back into the stone. Well the mirrored surface only is benefitted by certain angles of direct and strong sunlight - all of the magical things that my diamond used to do in a room with just diffused light from a window - those are gone now.

If I were to have a pendant made I would want as little leakage as possible - but in a lovely crown heavy cushion that you intend to view from EVERY side and not just the top - leakage can be not only tolerable - it can make a magical and positive difference. Profile shots on rounds are often lost on me because those diamonds don''t glow the way a leaky stone does.

It is such a matter of preference. If you want a maserati, a station wagon won''t do. But if you want a family car - the sports car isn''t an option. I think the type of setting is important to consider in conjunction with the diamond cut. Too much focus on any one thing leaves a stellar but perhaps stunted (in some ways) performance. Old Miner always has maintained that the direct face up view is the only view that matters, but I never agreed with that. It does have the benefit of being a constant and that is helpful for standardizing.

That is my thoughts on this anyway

 

[clgwli]

Date: 4/9/2010 8:04:00 PM
Author: sarap333

Date: 4/9/2010 6:56:46 PM
Author: clgwli

Date: 4/9/2010 6:44:19 PM

Author: dreamer_d

Date: 4/9/2010 6:28:37 PM

Author: clgwli

Date: 4/9/2010 6:20:22 PM

Author: dreamer_d


CL I you think consumers who come here for help should be given different advice, then post in RT and give them the advice you want!

I really honestly do not understand what you are saying here. I said in my last post that I think a lot of those who help here do not listen to what the consumer wants and push their ideals sometimes more than what the consumer wants. That''s an observation in a nutshell.



Again I do not care for RB so I do not feel the desire to post advice for them. I was making a general observation about when someone asks for example a 1.5 carat RB G and above in color and VS1 and above in clarity. Their priority in order is size, clarity cut then color. I have seen more than once here that people push for the ideal cuts and suggest a lower color and clarity to achieve this in their budget. But you see, they did not even include any comments on cut in their equation? How are we to help them when they have left out an important determinant of price?? I know I am not the only one who has seen this and it does make me wonder if this forum is to help find the best diamond for the person or if people think their views are always right for everyone.


And yes my comments are straying from the original topic, but it is an observation I have noticed about this place since I found it. Yes there are a lot of helpful people here, but I also feel that there is a lot of people who snub their noses at something below ideal.

I meant that it is easy to sit back and point fingers and say ''You over there, doing all the work, you are doing it wrong and you should do it in another way!'' It is something entirely different to actually participate and help people and see that it is not always easy to give what you think if helpful and good advice. It is difficult to try to do your best and then have lurkers come out and say you are flagrantly ignoring what a poster might want or need. If you think it should be done a different way, then come and help. Do not just point a finger and say that we are all doing a crummy job and are leading consumers astray.


As someone who regularly posts in RT to help people because I like to, and because I like diamonds, not because I get anything in return, I find your statements so insulting!

I have typed and retyped a response to you more than once and I cannot get it right.


Don''t be insulted is all I can say.


This was a big bold step for me to take and you just made me realize why I am always afraid to post these kinds of things on any thread. Because if a generalization will insult you so badly, I can''t imagine what a post on a specific thread will do to you or others.


I cannot spend my time to look at every single thread. I have a child to watch during the day and only get bursts of time here. I am not even sure what you are referring to in your red comment. I have a feeling you are thinking of threads I may not have even seen.


They weren''t directed at YOU so there is no way you should feel insulted. I honestly cannot even place you on any threads. That isn''t bad, just how it is. This is a big community.


And now I will go away. I was trying to be nice about things and I realize my opinions are not welcome.

Every forum has its own personality. Questioning super-ideals on RT can be a little like starting a thread on a wine forum stating that your no-vintage 2 buck Chuck is just as good as a 1982 Chateau Marguax. I would expect to get a little flak for a statement like that, especially if you didn''t provide some evidence for your argument in terms that make sense to wine lovers.

People here are passionate about diamond cut, and, just like wine aficionados, things get a little heated when the qualities of their objects of affection are debated.

I don''t always agree with what''s said on RT, but I do learn a lot. And I also notice that the folks on RT aren''t hanging out on the Timeless Classics forum dissing OEC''s. Different strokes...

I can understand your point. I just think it stinks that someone gets insulted by my post because I haven''t been posting as long but when a long time poster says the same kind of thing, they aren''t picked on.

Funny you picked wine though. I am not a huge wine aficionado, but a couple of my friends are. I''ve been to quite a few wine parties thanks to them.

The best comparison I can make is that even these people will acknowledge that a $10 bottle of wine can be excellent and a wonderful value compared to the expensive "specials" No they aren''t the same, but for $10 you can get a great wine. Not ideal, but a very good one all the same. They understand that the $100+ bottles of wine aren''t for everyone. And most definitely not appropriate to serve in all situations.

I kind of was thinking the same things about stones, and settings in general too. Some are fabulous, but others are great especially given a price.

I wasn''t here to insult anyone, but to say that super ideals aren''t always for everyone and sometimes I do think that it can be forgotten.

My point is that leakage can be bad, but every person probably has their own threshold for what is considered bad. I am sorry that people took my *opinion* as an attack.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/10/2010 9:28:39 AM
Author: clgwli


The best comparison I can make is that even these people will acknowledge that a $10 bottle of wine can be excellent and a wonderful value compared to the expensive ''specials'' No they aren''t the same, but for $10 you can get a great wine. Not ideal, but a very good one all the same. They understand that the $100+ bottles of wine aren''t for everyone. And most definitely not appropriate to serve in all situations.

A well cut diamond does not have to cost more than a dud.
Sure the h&a super-ideals are more expensive because of the reduced yield and cutting time but using the same tools you can find diamonds in any price group that will return light better than others in the group.
That would be selecting a 10 dollar wine that has 95% of the attributes of the 100 wine instead of 60%.
Visiting pawnshops and low end b&m''s I have come across earrings same size, lightly tinted about the same, i2 clarity with visible inclusions, same price.
One set would be a considerably brighter than the other.
Look at them with ASET or IS and it showed why that was so.
Which is the better deal?

 

[Lula]

Date: 4/9/2010 9:36:48 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/9/2010 5:12:41 PM

Author: sarap333

...and there might be some leakage here...


I don't think the leakage is as 'bad' as the photo of the stone posted earlier, but I do think this stone leaks, meaning, in my definition, that light going into the stone is exiting out the bottom or the sides of the stone rather than the top of the stone. And I also think that the cut is typical of what most retail stores sell (non-H&A or 'Traditional' symmetry).

For reasons already mentioned by some others I will not be joining this debate.


But this is a rough estimate of the diamond from craigslist.

It coud be GIA Very Good / AGS 6

Thanks, Garry. The generated images of the craigslist stone are really interesting. The white in the image does seem to mimic the dark areas seen in the photos of the stone.

So perhaps we need to start a thread of "leakage" photos? It's obvious that leakage exists, and that it exists in lesser or greater degrees depending on the cut parameters of the stone.

Each consumer has to decide for him or herself what amount of leakage is acceptable and/or visible to their eyes.

I am a cut fanatic -- I admit it. I love math and numbers and the tight parameters of a super-ideal cut like my Infinity. But that's my preference, which I arrived at after spending a lot of time on this forum and a lot of time looking at diamonds in person.

Cut is a mind-clean issue for me, and for a lot of other posters. But for others, not so much. I do think that the prosumers on this site do a very good job of asking questions of newbies to learn what the newbies' preferences are -- and they respect those preferences. But that doesn't mean that they won't ask questions and challenge the newbie a bit -- that just comes with the territory in trying to educate a person.

However, a lot of newbies arrive here knowing nothing about cut, and so I think a lot of cut converts are born on RT once they begin learning about cut, and once they see how different things are around here compared to what they hear at their local mall store.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 4/10/2010 1:21:51 PM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/10/2010 9:28:39 AM

Author: clgwli



The best comparison I can make is that even these people will acknowledge that a $10 bottle of wine can be excellent and a wonderful value compared to the expensive ''specials'' No they aren''t the same, but for $10 you can get a great wine. Not ideal, but a very good one all the same. They understand that the $100+ bottles of wine aren''t for everyone. And most definitely not appropriate to serve in all situations.

A well cut diamond does not have to cost more than a dud.

Sure the h&a super-ideals are more expensive because of the reduced yield and cutting time but using the same tools you can find diamonds in any price group that will return light better than others in the group.

That would be selecting a 10 dollar wine that has 95% of the attributes of the 100 wine instead of 60%.

Visiting pawnshops and low end b&m''s I have come across earrings same size, lightly tinted about the same, i2 clarity with visible inclusions, same price.

One set would be a considerably brighter than the other.

Look at them with ASET or IS and it showed why that was so.

Which is the better deal?

Karl- I''d again ask to see photos of these GIA graded EX cut grade "dud" stones.
I agree- the "Super Ideals'' cost more- - and based on the reasons, the added cost is justifiable.
However, there are VG or non "super ideal" EX cut grade stones will cost less, and look better to some observers. it''s simply not a "fact" that a "super ideal" looks better as compared to other really well cut diamonds.
I''d also still like to know the answer to my question about the distinction between scatter and leakage. If you don;t want to answer me, how about for the people reading this besides me.


Sara- I agree - we need a place to show people what leakage is ( again EVERY diamond has leakage, so leakage itself is NOT a negative aspect, regardless of the derogatory name)I had hoped this might be that place.
But other than a single really bad case=- which itself is very informative- we''re still waiting for these photos. Especially of GIA EX - or even VG cut grade leakage examples.

Thank you Garry for providing the analysis of the stone Sara posted.
Stone- although you''ve termed my methods "stupid", somehow I was able to guesstimate within one half a percent the table of the stone Sara posted. Visual inspection would also identify steep crown, thick girdle- or ANY other potential cut problem, This is in stark contract to the formulas you are advocating- which have shown NOT to provide accurate results. I think use of them to warn other consumers is questionable, to say the least..

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/10/2010 5:02:35 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Stone- although you've termed my methods 'stupid', somehow I was able to guesstimate within one half a percent the table of the stone Sara posted. Visual inspection would also identify steep crown, thick girdle- or ANY other potential cut problem, This is in stark contract to the formulas you are advocating- which have shown NOT to provide accurate results. I think use of them to warn other consumers is questionable, to say the least..

So can you see the stones over the internet to judge a thick crown, girdle? No, you didn't see the image of the stone, you use the numbers presented. That stone has good low crown, 60 table cut, that save weight that results in the good spread, not that it cannot get a better spread. What my calculation tells is that the pavilion can be shallower, by about 1.3%, giving you a nice 60/60 cut that you so love and boast about, and the final carat weight will be in the range of 1.98c instead of over 2.02c.

So you think the 60T 34CA 41.8PA stone is so good, so why does GIA gives that proportion a VG grade instead of an Ex grade in cut, even if the polish is VG and above? Answer me that.

HCA will weed out stones that are GIA Ex cut stone but do not perform as well, or tell us to go for a GIA VG cut stone that performs well, better than a leaky GIA Ex cut stone. So which is a better deal there? Buy a leaky stone that gets a GIA Ex cut grade and pay a premium for a cut grade that is not there or a GIA VG cut grade stone, in the AGS Ideal range, cheaper stone?

 

[oldminer]

A couple years ago Garry H had a diamond which had a GIA VG rating that was bad enough with "leakage" that if it was a ship it would have sunk to the bottom of the ocean without time for anyone to get into a lifeboat. I don''t believe anyone can show such a case with a GIA EX cut although not all GIA EX cuts are cookie cutter identical in appearance or light return.

 

[kenny]

Date: 4/10/2010 5:42:55 PM
Author: oldminer
A couple years ago Garry H had a diamond which had a GIA VG rating that was bad enough with ''leakage'' that if it was a ship it would have sunk to the bottom of the ocean without time for anyone to get into a lifeboat. I don''t believe anyone can show such a case with a GIA EX cut although not all GIA EX cuts are cookie cutter identical in appearance or light return.

Oh David, look on the bright side.
Swimming is great exercise.

 

[clgwli]

Date: 4/10/2010 1:21:51 PM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/10/2010 9:28:39 AM
Author: clgwli


The best comparison I can make is that even these people will acknowledge that a $10 bottle of wine can be excellent and a wonderful value compared to the expensive ''specials'' No they aren''t the same, but for $10 you can get a great wine. Not ideal, but a very good one all the same. They understand that the $100+ bottles of wine aren''t for everyone. And most definitely not appropriate to serve in all situations.

A well cut diamond does not have to cost more than a dud.
Sure the h&a super-ideals are more expensive because of the reduced yield and cutting time but using the same tools you can find diamonds in any price group that will return light better than others in the group.
That would be selecting a 10 dollar wine that has 95% of the attributes of the 100 wine instead of 60%.
Visiting pawnshops and low end b&m''s I have come across earrings same size, lightly tinted about the same, i2 clarity with visible inclusions, same price.
One set would be a considerably brighter than the other.
Look at them with ASET or IS and it showed why that was so.
Which is the better deal?

I am not sure you realize that I wasn''t speaking of the crap diamonds you find in low end stores at all. I wasn''t speaking of the lower clarity and cut that some places try to pass off as "good" either.

My point simply was that super ideal isn''t for everyone and sometimes the price point for a very nicely cut (not ideal though) stone is a great deal for those out there.

So if you are trying to argue with me or teach me something right now, you''ll be shocked to hear that I won''t disagree or that you are going against what I was trying to say.

I said way back that the tools are great for those who cannot see a stone with their own eyes. However I was simply stating that for some super ideals aren''t either A) worth the price or B) not their thing. For me it is "B" Super ideals aren''t my thing. Neither are pears, hearts, marquise and any very long ratio stone. It''s a preference of mine.

I do think as another poster just said it would be interesting to show pictures & videos of stones and see where the threshold for people lies. That would be truly interesting to me. I am not sure I have seen enough lower end stones in person though to know where my threshold is.

I have two trusted local jewelers that I buy from since I was so specific on size, color and clarity for my earrings so I''ve done most of my purchases based on eyes, but I have had them only show me the better cut stones. One in particular has been very critical on all the stones they bring in and I appreciate being able to see different types in person. They have only bought wonderfully cut diamonds for decades as they cater to the more upscale people who want to spend more for quality. What shocked me is that with these rounds I started buying ideal and the last pair turned out to be "just" VG. I would share pictures but these are smaller stones and my camera is not good enough to get shots of them. The last set is on the more shallow end though which worked nicely for my earrings.

I think I will say it again. Different strokes for different folks. I never suggest buying low quality cuts or even clarity to anyone. Those are my 2 top things in general and color only comes in based on what I am looking for.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

.29%; HEIGHT: 301px" class="ibbquote">Date: 4/10/2010 7:25:03 PM
Author: clgwli

I am not sure you realize that I wasn''t speaking of the crap diamonds you find in low end stores at all. I wasn''t speaking of the lower clarity and cut that some places try to pass off as ''good'' either.

My point simply was that super ideal isn''t for everyone and sometimes the price point for a very nicely cut (not ideal though) stone is a great deal for those out there.

So if you are trying to argue with me or teach me something right now, you''ll be shocked to hear that I won''t disagree or that you are going against what I was trying to say.

I said way back that the tools are great for those who cannot see a stone with their own eyes. However I was simply stating that for some super ideals aren''t either A) worth the price or B) not their thing. For me it is ''B'' Super ideals aren''t my thing. Neither are pears, hearts, marquise and any very long ratio stone. It''s a preference of mine.

I do think as another poster just said it would be interesting to show pictures & videos of stones and see where the threshold for people lies. That would be truly interesting to me. I am not sure I have seen enough lower end stones in person though to know where my threshold is.

I have two trusted local jewelers that I buy from since I was so specific on size, color and clarity for my earrings so I''ve done most of my purchases based on eyes, but I have had them only show me the better cut stones. One in particular has been very critical on all the stones they bring in and I appreciate being able to see different types in person. They have only bought wonderfully cut diamonds for decades as they cater to the more upscale people who want to spend more for quality. What shocked me is that with these rounds I started buying ideal and the last pair turned out to be ''just'' VG. I would share pictures but these are smaller stones and my camera is not good enough to get shots of them. The last set is on the more shallow end though which worked nicely for my earrings.

I think I will say it again. Different strokes for different folks. I never suggest buying low quality cuts or even clarity to anyone. Those are my 2 top things in general and color only comes in based on what I am looking for.

Your point of view is well received by me. There is a black and white difference between a super ideal VS D stone and a L I2 stone with a poor cut. But there are shades of grey in between. And somewhere in those shades of grey there are beautiful diamonds with small amounts of leakage that our human eyes may not detect at all. That is just a point I would like to see brought out more often in this forum. With that said I am grateful that the education on this forum will help consumers avoid paying high prices for poorly cut stones.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/10/2010 7:25:03 PM
Author: clgwli

Date: 4/10/2010 1:21:51 PM

Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/10/2010 9:28:39 AM

Author: clgwli



The best comparison I can make is that even these people will acknowledge that a $10 bottle of wine can be excellent and a wonderful value compared to the expensive ''specials'' No they aren''t the same, but for $10 you can get a great wine. Not ideal, but a very good one all the same. They understand that the $100+ bottles of wine aren''t for everyone. And most definitely not appropriate to serve in all situations.

A well cut diamond does not have to cost more than a dud.

Sure the h&a super-ideals are more expensive because of the reduced yield and cutting time but using the same tools you can find diamonds in any price group that will return light better than others in the group.

That would be selecting a 10 dollar wine that has 95% of the attributes of the 100 wine instead of 60%.

Visiting pawnshops and low end b&m''s I have come across earrings same size, lightly tinted about the same, i2 clarity with visible inclusions, same price.

One set would be a considerably brighter than the other.

Look at them with ASET or IS and it showed why that was so.

Which is the better deal?

I am not sure you realize that I wasn''t speaking of the crap diamonds you find in low end stores at all. I wasn''t speaking of the lower clarity and cut that some places try to pass off as ''good'' either.


My point simply was that super ideal isn''t for everyone and sometimes the price point for a very nicely cut (not ideal though) stone is a great deal for those out there.


So if you are trying to argue with me or teach me something right now, you''ll be shocked to hear that I won''t disagree or that you are going against what I was trying to say.


I said way back that the tools are great for those who cannot see a stone with their own eyes. However I was simply stating that for some super ideals aren''t either A) worth the price or B) not their thing. For me it is ''B'' Super ideals aren''t my thing. Neither are pears, hearts, marquise and any very long ratio stone. It''s a preference of mine.


I do think as another poster just said it would be interesting to show pictures & videos of stones and see where the threshold for people lies. That would be truly interesting to me. I am not sure I have seen enough lower end stones in person though to know where my threshold is.


I have two trusted local jewelers that I buy from since I was so specific on size, color and clarity for my earrings so I''ve done most of my purchases based on eyes, but I have had them only show me the better cut stones. One in particular has been very critical on all the stones they bring in and I appreciate being able to see different types in person. They have only bought wonderfully cut diamonds for decades as they cater to the more upscale people who want to spend more for quality. What shocked me is that with these rounds I started buying ideal and the last pair turned out to be ''just'' VG. I would share pictures but these are smaller stones and my camera is not good enough to get shots of them. The last set is on the more shallow end though which worked nicely for my earrings.


I think I will say it again. Different strokes for different folks. I never suggest buying low quality cuts or even clarity to anyone. Those are my 2 top things in general and color only comes in based on what I am looking for.

I was just using it as an example that fit your wine analogy. $10 vs $100
You can use the same tools to find well cut diamonds at any price point was my point is all.
Those earrings have a place on the market and everyone around my area seems to own a pair or 2 so it is nice when they can get some that sparkle more than some others.
I have helped a few select them and have got thrown out of one store because of it. lol they didn''t like the ASET scope.

I am glad you have a couple kicken local jewelers :}

Some specific combos that get GIA VG because of shallow pavilions are better in earrings than most gia Ex combos for earrings according to some experts.
Which brings me back to finding well cut diamonds at all price points.

 

[HopeDream]

Though frustrating to some, I think the "good cop/bad cop" approach to diamond discussion and education reaches more people that the more straightforward
"What do you think of this stone?/ Find me a diamond and setting for under $2000".

Lurkers, newbies, etc. keep tabs on the thread for the drama (folks love drama!), but end up absorbing quite a bit of info in the process.

Trouble is not all the good/bad cops realize that they''ve signed up for ten rounds, but really most newbies won''t troll the archives for the past debates "correct" explanations so rehashing past views may be helpful to get the message to the ever-changing masses.

Don''t get frustrated re-hashers: know that your audience is ever widening and you are reaching new readers every. single. time.

PS readers are intelligent and will draw their own conclusions.

Re: Light Leakage

My experience of areas of light leakage in diamonds is that the affected areas tend to become "greyed-out" neither bright with reflection, nor dark with obstruction, but dull and lack-luster - like if you turned down the contrast. Not ugly, but not lively and bright either. Following are two video screen captures of stones which feature considerable light leakage vs stones that don''t - I think they show the "greyed-out" light leakage areas quite nicely. the stones shown are modern and vintage style cushions.

I''m sorry I don''t have similar examples for rounds - maybe someone could dig some up?

I think considerable light leakage in a stone does hamper the beauty of the stone.

Perhaps light leakage as gauged by white/light areas of 30% of the stone''s area or greater on an IS could safely be termed an undesirable proportion of light leakage
(This is a very loose figure I''ve just made up and could be tightened considerably)