Is leakage bad?

[kenny]

CCL you speak truth.

It surprises me that PS veterans still fall for his game of pretending he doesn't understand something, and then discuss it with him for pages and pages.

It just let's him confuse buyers while posting links to www.diamondsbylauren again, and again, and again for free while making a mockery of Pricescope.

The joke's on us, folks.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/6/2009 6:30:24 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 12/6/2009 6:08:54 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
The photo I posted shows another Daussi with ''extreme contrast'' both off, and on the finger. You can''t see a finger through the stone. Nor can you see the ring shank through the table in the shot off the finger.

Personally, I think contrast is a far better term than leakage.

What are you talking about? That daussi has obstruction issue not leakage, they are not the same thing, stop talking like they are the same thing and muddying the waters. Of course you will not be able to see you finger through the stone when a stone has obstruction issue. Sigh...

Chunky I would add your post here too if i knew how.

David you say you read all the material yet you still refer to a diamond that clearly has a bow tie not caused by leakage.
Either you are not able to understand the issues, or you are doing as suggested.
If it is the later then th only thing that seems to add valu to Pricescopers is they do indeed get to learn even if you do not.

 

[purrfectpear]

Only if you hold to the theory that even negative publicity is good publicity. Anyone who does a search on his threads will find some whoppers. It''s not the sort of attention that I would think any sane vendor would want to bring to themselves

Interesting theory though.

Cue the next "I''m just trying to educate................." post in 1-2-3.................

 

[kenny]

Then again if you read some of the product descriptions it's clear he's not trying to appeal to the brightest bulbs in the chandelier.
That confusion approach may just be endearing to some customers.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 12/4/2009 7:44:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI DF,

It's true that I do love a lot of diamonds that exhibit characteristics known here as 'leakage'

for example the stone below.


I do believe that showing examples of stones that exhibit leakage, so that people can see what leakage means can't be a bad thing.

As long as the examples are sparkly photos pulled from *your* inventory, right?

*yawn*

ETA: ah, I see my point has already been made by CCL.

I also agree to boycott these threads, and hope that others will do so, in the hopes of ending this cycle of BS perpetuated by david.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 12/5/2009 2:32:28 PM
Author: Mrs Mitchell
Not especially relevant to this thread, but can I just say that I want a Daussi cushion so bad it hurts.

Absolutely.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 12/5/2009 4:24:09 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
I am very far removed from being an expert on diamonds as my forte is more coloured gemstones however, when I look at a gemstone, regardless of what it is, I don''t want to see through it - in any way, shape or form. I want the colour or fire to be reflected back to my eye. For example, and I have no idea if this is correct, but a bow tie on a diamond drives me nuts (presumably that is a form of leakage caused by cut????). In coloured gemstones, you get windows due to poor cutting/faceting placement and so, one of the first things I look for, is an even distribution of colour with no darker areas or parts I can see through.

I''m not sure that answers your question .......... if leakage = being able to see through the stone, then it''s a no-no for me because performance is affected.

Actually it is a form of obscuration or obstruction caused by cut. If you look at the left hand stone in the photo I have posted from the AGS ASET tutorial you will see that the middle of the stone is largely obstructed as evidenced by blue color there. It is the same affect that we are seeing in the Daussi Cushion posted above.

Like you, it drives me nuts, however as evidenced by Mrs. Mitchell, some do love it. It is probably the biggest blessing of the gem world, there are thousands of flavors and someone who loves each flavor. My favorite flavor in a diamond is the AGS tripple 0 cut grade round brilliant, followed closely by the AGS tripple 0 cut grade princess so those are what I deal in. As is obvious to any who know me well, my favorite flavor in colored gem cutting is a Richard Homer concave faceted gem, and there are so many flavors there that I am in a whole different sensory world. (It is like a gustatory overload for the eyes!)

It is more difficult to know which is which in colored gems since the color makes it very difficult to use the ASET. In general, if you can see your finger through the gem, that is leakage, if the facet is dark but nothing behind the facet is visible then it is obstruction. Since many colored gems are much larger than average sized diamond the facets tend to be much larger and it is easier to see through them when there is leakage.

Wink

 

[outatouch0]

Date: 12/6/2009 6:30:24 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 12/6/2009 6:08:54 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

The photo I posted shows another Daussi with ''extreme contrast'' both off, and on the finger. You can''t see a finger through the stone. Nor can you see the ring shank through the table in the shot off the finger.


Personally, I think contrast is a far better term than leakage.

What are you talking about? That daussi has obstruction issue not leakage, they are not the same thing, stop talking like they are the same thing and muddying the waters. Of course you will not be able to see you finger through the stone when a stone has obstruction issue. Sigh...

OH Gosh thanks for saying that SC - I thought I was confused but thanks to you I see I still understand...
These threads are OUR FAULT though. Each response moves it back to the top (guilty me now too) LMAO
Both entertaining and informative. I''ve learnt somthin bout cut n stuff AND that someone is FOS

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 12/6/2009 7:09:14 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/6/2009 6:30:24 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 12/6/2009 6:08:54 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
The photo I posted shows another Daussi with ''extreme contrast'' both off, and on the finger. You can''t see a finger through the stone. Nor can you see the ring shank through the table in the shot off the finger.

Personally, I think contrast is a far better term than leakage.

What are you talking about? That daussi has obstruction issue not leakage, they are not the same thing, stop talking like they are the same thing and muddying the waters. Of course you will not be able to see you finger through the stone when a stone has obstruction issue. Sigh...

Chunky I would add your post here too if i knew how.

David you say you read all the material yet you still refer to a diamond that clearly has a bow tie not caused by leakage.
Either you are not able to understand the issues, or you are doing as suggested.
If it is the later then th only thing that seems to add valu to Pricescopers is they do indeed get to learn even if you do not.

HI Everyone!

Garry, how about a third possibility- I have read the material, but feel that the theories of "obstruction" and "leakage" are not being properly applied here in this thread, or on a far broader scale over many questions asked here on PS.

Like you, I''ve spent my life working with diamonds- and I believe we''re both passionate about it. The answers commonly given are far from what my experience shows to be true, and drive me to ask how these conclusions are reached, and verified.

People are told to cut holes in pieces of paper or put on ski masks, when what they really need is a simple answer.
I do not ask these simple questions because I don''t know the answers, as they exist here. I simply disagree with the basis of facts that the commonly used PS answers are based on.
Asking a simple question puts these issues in a more palatable and understandable form. The large number of views is likely because many readers share a sense of over-complication of what should be simple answers.

After Kenny''s recent posts accusing me of some sort of magic process to make stones not look as they do in real life, I re-used the photo he did for demonstration.
I do believe the photo shows minor leakage- or obstruction- a slight case of darkening of some of the facets.

Thank goodness for Wink''s simple explanation:

In general, if you can see your finger through the gem, that is leakage, if the facet is dark but nothing behind the facet is visible then it is obstruction.

I can sum up part of the confusion simply: What is the difference to a buyer? If the stone is dark, the stone is dark. If you can see the finger through the stone, and Wink''s simple explanation holds true ( likely he has answered a simple question, and put his finger on the differences between leakage and obstruction referred to here) they will know the stone has what''s called "leakage" here.
Wink- I''d love to see photos og the two emerald cuts, if that is possible.

Part of my point is -so what? If I can see right through a stone, I really don''t care what you call it, I won''t likely buy it.
Cases of such extreme leakage are likely non existent in GIA EX cut graded stones.
This is why I feel photos showing different darkness in diamonds are important.

The popularity of old mine diamonds- as well as "chunky" cushions was why I used a Daussi for demonstration. They make a good platform on which to discuss darkness in diamonds. Daussi cushions are carried by PS vendors. They are quite popular- even outside me and Mrs Mitchell.

It''s also true that people may want to tune in to see how I am attacked, and how I respond.
I''m ashamed of nothing- in fact my involvement here has definitely made some impact- even going back to years ago.
Hence an "educational" page showing how bad a 60/60 can be.
To my recollection I was the only one stating that 60% was a great table size before 2006, when GIA backed up my opinion with their cut grade.
Even AGS included the combo I love.

 

[stone-cold11]

In short, you still do not know the difference but claim to know the difference. sigh...

 

[kenny]

Just keep posting your faux confusion or using any clever ruse to keep advertising for free on Pricescope.

Here, let me help.

Diamonds by Lauren

Diamonds by Lauren

Diamonds by Lauren

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 12/7/2009 2:11:13 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
In short, you still do not know the difference but claim to know the difference. sigh...

Stone, why don't you sum up your understanding of obstruction in one paragraph, and how it affects people buying diamonds..
Let's see how well YOU understand it.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Wow, thanks Kenny - I think you just helped me find my anniversary gift.

Why haven''t I spotted this before? Love it!


Jen

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/7/2009 1:56:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
To my recollection I was the only one stating that 60% was a great table size before 2006, when GIA backed up my opinion with their cut grade.
Even AGS included the combo I love.

David HCA extends top cut to about the same range of table sizes as both those systems. I got there several years before either organisation.

 

[Rockdiamond]

True Garry- but prior to that, we did have a difference of opinion regarding 60/60's if I recall.....

Although I have mentioned this before, it bears repeating.
I have a lot of respect for Garry. Although I don;t necessarily agree with the usage of tools he has designed, that in no way lessens my admiration for the effort, and results for those who have found them useful.
That we see things differently is not bad- rather, it can be informative.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/7/2009 2:53:07 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
True Garry- but prior to that, we did have a difference of opinion regarding 60/60''s if I recall.....

Although I have mentioned this before, it bears repeating.
I have a lot of respect for Garry. Although I don;t necessarily agree with the usage of tools he has designed, that in no way lessens my admiration for the effort, and results for those who have found them useful.
That we see things differently is not bad- rather, it can be informative.

I have no issue with well proportioned 60:60 stones. Not now - not ever.
I have issues with using those two bits of data alone as a selection criteria as has been explained 1,000 times to you.

Read it again - http://diamonds.pricescope.com/60.asp

 

[kenny]

Date: 12/7/2009 2:53:07 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
. . . I don;t necessarily agree with the usage of tools he [Garry Holloway] has designed. . .

. . . because the Idealscope and HCA reveal poorly cut diamonds.

These tools help vendors of well-cut diamonds.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Never have I suggested blindly buying a stone simply due t it''s table and depth.
I''ve always advocated close physical inspection as key.

The 60/60 tutorial still exists, and I honestly believe my questions years ago prompted it.
The demonstration stones from that thread are shown below.
Are we actually supposed to find stones that look like that?
Have you seen stones that look like that?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 12/7/2009 3:21:15 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 12/7/2009 2:53:07 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
. . . I don;t necessarily agree with the usage of tools he [Garry Holloway] has designed. . .

. . . because the Idealscope and HCA reveal poorly cut diamonds.

These tools help vendors of well-cut diamonds.

Funny thing Kenny.
I don''t see you asking quesitons.
I do see you making baseless assumptions, than stating YOUR opinion as fact.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 12/7/2009 2:28:19 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 12/7/2009 2:11:13 PM

Author: Stone-cold11

In short, you still do not know the difference but claim to know the difference. sigh...

Stone, why don't you sum up your understanding of obstruction in one paragraph, and how it affects people buying diamonds..

Let's see how well YOU understand it.

It is up to you to show your understanding of the issue cause you are muddying out the distinction. I can see the difference between obstruction and leakage, you cannot. Calling an obstruction leakage, is that what education is?

And when did you start calling leakage dark? I remember your stones show all shinning and bright, due to massive pavilion lighting, and that is cause by leakage. And you are saying your images are a good representations of the stones you are selling???

 

[kenny]

Keeping it muddy keep the threads going, which means more free advertising.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 12/7/2009 3:21:15 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 12/7/2009 2:53:07 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
. . . I don;t necessarily agree with the usage of tools he [Garry Holloway] has designed. . .

. . . because the Idealscope and HCA reveal poorly cut diamonds.

These tools help vendors of well-cut diamonds.

Kenny,

What you forgot to mention is that those tools HURT vendors like RD, in fact cut education and PS itself is a threat to RD and other "niche" dealers. Despite their attempts at misdirection, confusion, PS and cut education makes it much easier for consumers to differentiate well cut diamonds from those "niche" diamonds cut to save weight or full of flaws. We are entering an age of smarter consumers and with our help they can see through the lighting and photography tricks, and learn to ignore the sales pitch. It is interesting but the most well respected dealers on PS don't have so sell anything, the posters will do that for them, whereas others with very little credibility have to try really hard to make their opinion count.

Keep up your clear and concise factual statements they make things crystal clear despite attempts at confusion.

 

[LD]

Can I just say a huge thank you to the contributors to this thread because for once, instead of being confused, a light bulb of clarity has come on in my brain!

To sum up from a novice's point of view:-

Leakage aka windows i.e. you can see through the gem/diamond (which makes sense because the light leaks out the back and doesn't reflect back to the eye).
Obstruction aka extinction i.e dark patches which can be good or bad depending on placement and if it detracts from the gem/diamonds beauty.

Got it ......... I think!

So, if I'm right, the Daussi cushion shows a distinct obstruction (i.e. large bowtie)?

 

[stone-cold11]

Yap. Bow-tie effect.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Stone, I''m asking questions designed to make it easy for all to understand.
In fact, things like "leakage" and "obstruction" not easy for many consumers to understand simply because the way these terms are used here bear little relation to many shopper''s actual diamond buying IMO.
Others do find value in the PS definitions of these terms.
This is great- as many different types of people hear and see things many different ways.

But trying to make it seem as though one needs to understand "obstruction" as it''s commonly discussed here to effectively buy well cut diamonds is simply untrue.
Explaining that "leakage under the table" in a GIA EX cut graded stone may not be bad at all is important to me.
It''s important to me as a person- and dealer- who has dedicated a lot of time to diamond education.
True, I see it differently than many vocal posters here. But many people have expressed to us that they learned a lot looking at things I''ve written.

It seems to me that shouting louder, or insulting a person with different ideas does not seem to advance the very education some seem to be so anxious to promote. I think it may make people more open to a different viewpoint.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 12/7/2009 5:03:46 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Can I just say a huge thank you to the contributors to this thread because for once, instead of being confused, a light bulb of clarity has come on in my brain!

To sum up from a novice''s point of view:-

Leakage aka windows i.e. you can see through the gem/diamond (which makes sense because the light leaks out the back and doesn''t reflect back to the eye).
Obstruction aka extinction i.e dark patches which can be good or bad depending on placement and if it detracts from the gem/diamonds beauty.

Got it ......... I think!

So, if I''m right, the Daussi cushion shows a distinct obstruction (i.e. large bowtie)?

LD- You''re welcome.
I have no doubt you are skilled at selecting diamonds you love.
I''d also bet that you''d make a very good professional buyer.
The reason is that you understand what makes a diamond look good intuitively.
I honestly believe that the summations you made probably sum up the viewpoint expressed by many here- yet I don''t see any value to it.
You understood all this before people started throwing names at it.
Such as "obstruction".
What is referred to here as "obstruction" as well as "leakage" can both be good or bad.
The daussi stone was photographed in a manner that did not allow the camera to obstruct the light, yet it still shows that strong contrast...that in spite of all the accusations of trick photography.
Which would lead to the question "what does "obstruction" have to do with it?" - which might lead to another 20 page dissertation, and no simple answer.
The distinction about seeing the finger through the diamond IS an important one. However one would NOT need to understand obstruction ( as it''s discussed here) to know it''s got a high degree of contrast- or to know if they love it or not.

 

[LD]

Date: 12/7/2009 5:56:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 12/7/2009 5:03:46 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Can I just say a huge thank you to the contributors to this thread because for once, instead of being confused, a light bulb of clarity has come on in my brain!

To sum up from a novice''s point of view:-

Leakage aka windows i.e. you can see through the gem/diamond (which makes sense because the light leaks out the back and doesn''t reflect back to the eye).
Obstruction aka extinction i.e dark patches which can be good or bad depending on placement and if it detracts from the gem/diamonds beauty.

Got it ......... I think!

So, if I''m right, the Daussi cushion shows a distinct obstruction (i.e. large bowtie)?

LD- You''re welcome.
I have no doubt you are skilled at selecting diamonds you love.
I''d also bet that you''d make a very good professional buyer.
The reason is that you understand what makes a diamond look good intuitively.
I honestly believe that the summations you made probably sum up the viewpoint expressed by many here- yet I don''t see any value to it.
You understood all this before people started throwing names at it.
Such as ''obstruction''.
What is referred to here as ''obstruction'' as well as ''leakage'' can both be good or bad.
The daussi stone was photographed in a manner that did not allow the camera to obstruct the light, yet it still shows that strong contrast...that in spite of all the accusations of trick photography.
Which would lead to the question ''what does ''obstruction'' have to do with it?'' - which might lead to another 20 page dissertation, and no simple answer.
The distinction about seeing the finger through the diamond IS an important one. However one would NOT need to understand obstruction ( as it''s discussed here) to know it''s got a high degree of contrast- or to know if they love it or not.

Thank you David for the kind compliment.

Just to clarify what I''ve learned (and to reflect the learning back to coloured gemstones - which after all is more my world!) - For me, leakage is never good. I do understand how for some leakage wouldn''t be a problem but it''s a personal hate of mine. I''m confused as to how it can ever make a diamond look good but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder? With coloured gemstones, you can sometimes forgive a bit of leakage if the colour of the gemstone is supreme OR it is such a rare specimen that it becomes a must to have despite its cut! I find that hard to relate back to diamonds though - but this is really a novice''s point of view.

The other section I''ve highlighted above is about the Daussi. I''m not sure that when people are talking about obstruction they are necessarily saying it''s "head" obstruction. Obstruction, if I have understood correctly, can occur because of cut (i.e. causing a bowtie) OR by the head reflecting on the diamond when photographed? I don''t think that the two are the same. So, for me, the Daussi shows a bowtie caused by cut and nothing to do with camera trickery or head obstruction. However, I am reiterating here that I''m a novice so probably way off the mark!!! For me, a little obstruction in a fancy cut is unavoidable (although again, my preference is to have as little as possible especially where bowties are concerned - but that''s the coloured gemstone world coming out in me again!) so the Daussi would be a "no no" but a tiny little bowtie on a pear cut for example is ok by me!!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/7/2009 3:22:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Never have I suggested blindly buying a stone simply due t it''s table and depth.
I''ve always advocated close physical inspection as key.

The 60/60 tutorial still exists, and I honestly believe my questions years ago prompted it.
The demonstration stones from that thread are shown below.
Are we actually supposed to find stones that look like that?
Have you seen stones that look like that?

had a 60/60 stone that looks like the one the bottom. what a POS!!

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 12/7/2009 5:17:11 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Stone, I''m asking questions designed to make it easy for all to understand.

In fact, things like ''leakage'' and ''obstruction'' not easy for many consumers to understand simply because the way these terms are used here bear little relation to many shopper''s actual diamond buying IMO.

Others do find value in the PS definitions of these terms.

This is great- as many different types of people hear and see things many different ways.

But trying to make it seem as though one needs to understand ''obstruction'' as it''s commonly discussed here to effectively buy well cut diamonds is simply untrue.

Explaining that ''leakage under the table'' in a GIA EX cut graded stone may not be bad at all is important to me.

It''s important to me as a person- and dealer- who has dedicated a lot of time to diamond education.

True, I see it differently than many vocal posters here. But many people have expressed to us that they learned a lot looking at things I''ve written.

It seems to me that shouting louder, or insulting a person with different ideas does not seem to advance the very education some seem to be so anxious to promote. I think it may make people more open to a different viewpoint.

Confusing new users by using terms for meaning other than what they are meant is educational?
Control leakage is not bad, too much leakage and extra weight retention and paying for it is bad.

 

[princesss]

Date: 12/7/2009 5:03:46 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Can I just say a huge thank you to the contributors to this thread because for once, instead of being confused, a light bulb of clarity has come on in my brain!


To sum up from a novice''s point of view:-


Leakage aka windows i.e. you can see through the gem/diamond (which makes sense because the light leaks out the back and doesn''t reflect back to the eye).

Obstruction aka extinction i.e dark patches which can be good or bad depending on placement and if it detracts from the gem/diamonds beauty.


Got it ......... I think!


So, if I''m right, the Daussi cushion shows a distinct obstruction (i.e. large bowtie)?

I just had the same lightbulb moment, LD! It''s silly because even just looking at the terms I felt like I should be able to get them, but it took that Daussi cushion and this discussion to really understand the difference.

Basically, if I look at a stone and think, "I could drive a truck through that window!" it''s leakage. If it''s dark, but I can''t see the finger under the stone, it''s obstruction.

Thanks Wink for that very clear, concise definition.