In your opinion, how would you rank polish and symmetry to all other factors in searching for a diam

[callista]

Hi all!

I''ve learned so much from this forum for these past few months.

What I would like to know is, how would you rank the importance of polish and symmetry in a diamond as opposed to all other factors, like cut, quality, clarity, and carat weight in a diamond? And does it really need to be the same quality for both, i.e. good/good to ex/ex? Or is good/excellent or any other combination can be just as good?

I know lots of people agree that cut is king, and polish and symmetry goes hand in hand with cut, but does having, let''s say, excellent polish, good symmetry make it a less desirable stone? Would that combination make it less valuable?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/11/2005 3:17:56 PM
Author:callista
Hi all!

I've learned so much from this forum for these past few months.

What I would like to know is, how would you rank the importance of polish and symmetry in a diamond as opposed to all other factors, like cut, quality, clarity, and carat weight in a diamond? And does it really need to be the same quality for both, i.e. good/good to ex/ex? Or is good/excellent or any other combination can be just as good?

I know lots of people agree that cut is king, and polish and symmetry goes hand in hand with cut, but does having, let's say, excellent polish, good symmetry make it a less desirable stone? Would that combination make it less valuable?

Recent studies have concluded that there is not a visible difference between grades of EX and VG in polish and symmetry. As a matter of fact, GIA will be allowing diamonds with VG p/s into their top cut grade of 'Excellent'. For AGS nothing short of Ideal p/s will be allowed in their top cut grade of 0 or 'Ideal.'

Think of it this way: There is a difference, but not one you can visibly detect without assistance. For polish it's like two cars with paint jobs that appear to be the same color and quality. However, if you get up extremely close to one you may detect miscoscopic imperfections on the surface (VG), while the other is still adamantine and flawless (EX/Ideal).

Uh oh. Did I just use the dreaded car metaphor? Apologies to the reguars.

 

[callista]

Hi John Q.!

Thanks for your insight!

Funny, my friend gave me the same reference to cars when she explained to me about polish! Must be a universal analogy!

So I''m thinking if I were to choose a diamond that doesn''t have the same p/s ranking, then getting a a diamond with ex symmetry and good polish would be more preferrable and desirable, correct?

Does p/s have a big impact on price of a diamond?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/11/2005 4:00:01 PM
Author: callista
Hi John Q.!

Thanks for your insight!

Funny, my friend gave me the same reference to cars when she explained to me about polish! Must be a universal analogy!

So I'm thinking if I were to choose a diamond that doesn't have the same p/s ranking, then getting a a diamond with ex symmetry and good polish would be more preferrable and desirable, correct?

Does p/s have a big impact on price of a diamond?

Tell your friend I said hi and I also like long walks in the rain.

I believe polish is of major importance. It is responsible for the luster. My personal preference would not be to dip below VG in either. They do have an impact on price, through not as much as components like color and clarity.

 

[callista]

I appreciate your advice! I''ll definitely take it to heart.

Tell your friend I said hi and I also like long walks in the rain.

I''ll be sure to tell her, although I''m sure her husband won''t like it!

 

[TimeTraveller]

Date: 8/11/2005 4:00:01 PM
Author: callista
Hi John Q.!


Thanks for your insight!


Funny, my friend gave me the same reference to cars when she explained to me about polish! Must be a universal analogy!


So I''m thinking if I were to choose a diamond that doesn''t have the same p/s ranking, then getting a a diamond with ex symmetry and good polish would be more preferrable and desirable, correct?


Does p/s have a big impact on price of a diamond?

Callista, in the AGS universe, you can''t get an AGS0 grade without having IDEAL/IDEAL for both polish and symmetry, so most definitely polish and symmetry affects pricings of the diamond. If you are looking for an AGS ideal cut, then automatically the diamond must be IDEAL/IDEAL for both attributes. Otherwise it''s not an AGS0 ideal cut.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/11/2005 4:17:20 PM
Author: callista
I appreciate your advice! I''ll definitely take it to heart.

Tell your friend I said hi and I also like long walks in the rain.

I''ll be sure to tell her, although I''m sure her husband won''t like it!

We could get a really big umbrella...

 

[callista]

Hi Timetraveller!

Ah, I see what you''re saying. Your reference is to RB''s, correct? They are the only diamonds in the AGS universe, correct? I don''t even know what AGS stands for! Better look it up on pricescope!

I''m an asscher fan, which I should probably have mentioned earlier, so I don''t suppose p/s in reference to price for super ideal RB''s would go hand in hand with asschers or any other diamond p/s, right?

So I guess in general, having a ex/vg or vg/ex p/s for any diamond is fine to have over a ex/ex or vg/vg p/s. It doesn''t necessarily make the diamond less desireable, correct?


We could get a really big umbrella...

Heehee! John you are too funny!

Ok, I''ll swing it by her hubby, but I''m telling yooooooou......

 

[valeria101]

Last.

(...answering the question in the tytle of the thread)


IMO, of course, but Gia did the same in their cut study (see the table ranking grading factors in the article about GIA cut grades in the ''Pricescope Journal'').

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/11/2005 5:00:39 PM
Author: callista
Hi Timetraveller!

Ah, I see what you're saying. Your reference is to RB's, correct? They are the only diamonds in the AGS universe, correct? I don't even know what AGS stands for! Better look it up on pricescope!

That is a proper reset. Ana we can always count on you for a dose of global reality

I'm curious (Ana and others): After the foundation review came out I became a bit more Sym/Polish-analytical and sought opinions from those long-of-tooth in this business about the actual quality differences... Between labs there is a difference of opinion about Id/Ex versus VG (and even G according to early reports), and how they are being treated in overall quality assessment. In a puritanical sense, there is a distinct difference between Ex and VG in polish. Visible? Not so much. Microscopic? Yes. Tangible? Yes.

Is there a quality difference? Yes. An overwhelming number of enthusiasts and pros agree, even if it's not observable without mag.

The question: How do we best describe to consumers the reason for this dichotomy?

I am not lobbying for one philosphy over the other here. Just interested in input.

 

[TimeTraveller]

Haha... Yes, I''m referring to RB. I know nothing else, only RB.

AGS = American Gemological Society. Their lab(AGSL) issues grading reports like GIA.

Date: 8/11/2005 5:00:39 PM
Author: callista
Hi Timetraveller!


Ah, I see what you''re saying. Your reference is to RB''s, correct? They are the only diamonds in the AGS universe, correct? I don''t even know what AGS stands for! Better look it up on pricescope!


I''m an asscher fan, which I should probably have mentioned earlier, so I don''t suppose p/s in reference to price for super ideal RB''s would go hand in hand with asschers or any other diamond p/s, right?


So I guess in general, having a ex/vg or vg/ex p/s for any diamond is fine to have over a ex/ex or vg/vg p/s. It doesn''t necessarily make the diamond less desireable, correct?



We could get a really big umbrella...


Heehee! John you are too funny!


Ok, I''ll swing it by her hubby, but I''m telling yooooooou......

 

[JohnQuixote]

TT - You were a victim of Ana''s thespian skills. She has forgotten more about diamonds than most people may ever know.

Her point is that AGS, while arguably the leader in cut grading, is seen as a speciaist in RB and does not enjoy nearly the market share as GIA and some of the older labs.

 

[WinkHPD]

Peter Yantzer in conversations this weekend stated that minor polish and symmetry faults were among the least important of the factors in a diamond''s beauty, and that in fact optical symmetry was more important in the beauty of the diamond than meet point symmetry, but that the current reality of the diamond grading world is that the majority of users want/demand that the grade be dependant on meet point symmetry.

The reality is of course, that in our compulsion to be/have number #1 that there is a substantial cost difference in AGS1 and AGS0, it being more important to us that we know and appreciate the extra effort that it took to get AGS0, even if we can not possibly see the difference with the eye.

Wink

 

[valeria101]

Date: 8/11/2005 6:24:54 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

In a puritanical sense, there is a distinct difference between Ex and VG in polish.

[...]

The question: How do we best describe to consumers the reason for this dichotomy?

I like 'puritanical' !

Look, let's say I get this... but I would be allot happier if the time spent on grading Ex-Id polish & symmetry would be spent on quality marks that actually show. IMO, those were the low hanging fruit on the road to product differentiation. Fortunately, the grading that yielded these invisible finish grades also produced some more useful (IMO) output (i.e. proportions and performance based cut grades). Perhaps it wasn't practical to focus just on optics and 'waste' some gains of technology of lesser impact - the better finish that is. No problem if they come together with great looks (optics, shape or both), taken alone polish and facet meet symmetry need a good advocate, I would say. Compared to the amount of research, news and enthusiam generated by diamond optics, finish grades received little attention - that could also be taken as a sign of their worth.

John is too kind saying that I might know these things - for me Pricescope is a hobby and these posts contain more personal opinion than impartial knowledge.