In the market for a vinatage cushion cut ~$30k

[MollyMalone]

How about dialing back on the snottiness, Jamie; I had no reason to think your recommendation for how to "test the true value of a diamond" was intended solely for Sluggo & the particular N VS1 AVC he's been considering. Plus, Sluggo would have to repeat your MO with a non-AVC stone in order to compare prices offered. Not that I think that's necessary; his very first post in this thread demonstrated that he 'd already done legwork that revealed AVCs carry a hefty premium above ordinary modern cushions.

I myself wouldn't pay $30,000 for a diamond, for although I can appreciate fine diamonds, colored stones make my heart sing a lot more. But we all are not the same. Different people -- even those with the same budget for the same category of expenditure -- have different tastes and priorities. E.g., my late father-in-law, who was in the trade here in NYC & passionate about diamonds, detested the antique emerald and diamond ring his son & I selected for my engagement ring because (a) it wasn't new, and (b) the mine cut diamonds don't perform like Tolks. But I loved the ring (and was charmed by the thought that at least one other woman had treasured it too), so his logic, arguments for making what he deemed to be a better choice & the alternatives he dangled in front of us mattered not to me. I have never regretted it.

Sluggo, I would love to see you and your fiancée also have confidence that whatever you decide upon represents a fine choice for the two of you. So although I think Jamiegems overstated her case & has come across in a pompously off-putting manner, I agree with those who've suggested you continue to explore other options (preferably in person).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Diamond seeker, that's really quite your own personal opinion, not fact. We should not be misleading the newbies. BE can & does obtain beautiful stones. The method of interpreting that data is quite subjective.

Great discussion!
cc- you've hit upon a very important point- the terminology used by AGSL is designed to sell diamonds.
They use the term "Ideal Light Performance"- hence sellers repeating this name.
Now, it's a scientifically designed and measured grade- does that make it "better" than a "regular" non ideal cushion?
Of course not.
The grade will provide a consistent benchmark, so the stones tend to look alike.
However if one does not love that look, who cares?
The terminology is really the issue-
"Ideal optics" is a term designed to sell a given type of stone- Leakage is an AGS term used to insult another type of stone.

Right, it is a scientifically designed grade, and not my personal opinion, so thanks for that!

But the OP's girlfriend DID go see diamonds at a vendor who has a very wide selection of stones, and her choice after SEEING the stones IS an ideal cut (newly cut) antique style cushion (AVC). What we all " like" or " dislike" really doesn't matter because that is what SHE (the recipient) likes!

(By the way, I also love your yellow antique cushion diamonds also cut by Yoram, David! I imagine those might cost a little more than a generic good cut yellow stone that you pick up through a supplier, too, right???)

 

[Rockdiamond]

Let's try it this way DS.
Say McDonald's did scientific testing, and determined that 800 grams of fat was "Ideal" for a hamburger.
We'd be looking at "Ideal Big Macs"

It's not the method of obtaining the data that's in question, it's the subjective nature of the interpretation and nomenclature of the results.

Yes, we do pay quite a bit more for Yoram to cut our DBL branded cut for color OMB's as compared to "generic" yellow cushions.
We don't however, claim any sort of "scientific advantage" even though Yoram's work is the benchmark for modern OMB's in my opinion.

 

[m-2-b]

I just wanted to chime in on this discussion, coming from my own personal experience. I have a J colored AVC. I'm continually amazed at the amount of sparkle coming from this diamond--it is truly captivating!!! So if that is the cut that your girlfriend truly loves, then I say go for it!

Here's one of my favorite pics of my AVC:

 

[arkieb1]

There are plenty of people out there willing to pay a premium for a newly cut, perfect Antique diamond. As previously suggested most are people that either appreciate the time and effort that went into developing such a cut regardless of the colour of the stone and those looking for what they consider is a perfect diamond. And some people buy them because they are assured they are getting the best they can find because they do not have the confidence or the skill to wade through the vast array of Antique stones out there in order to find one that performs well. It has taken some members (myself included) years to find what they have been looking for specifically in a true old cut so if the customer does not have the time or patience I think the fact we now have the availability of well cut new old cuts is progress.

On the flip side of that there has been an intense debate here about the value of mid to lower coloured stones and indeed vendors who charge a premium for them (both old and new stones). They are personal choice but it is interesting that a number of times people purchase say a mid to low coloured AVC go to a valuer or appraiser and the stone values at far less than they paid because technically they are cape or low to mid coloured stones worth far less than their whiter counterparts. Most graders and appraisers do not place a heavy bias on the cut of something like an AVC the way we all do here, so I think that is all (perhaps not very tactfully) our new poster was trying to point out.

I made the suggestion in my first response that if the OP is concerned about resale value, then go for a smaller higher coloured stone, for that very reason, but the OP seems fine with a mid coloured stone. So now that we know they are O.K with mid colours, only he and his g/f can determine if it's worth paying a premium for them to purchase what the August Vintage line offers. Once again the most sensible option would be to look and try on everything else that is available to them and if the AVC they liked is still the preferred option then that is the right stone for the OP irrespective of price, potential future valuations and colour.

 

[Dancing Fire]

The diamond wasn't purchased he is still looking first of all. And the point of selling something is to make a fair profit, not fleece the buyer. Unless maybe you think that's ok. And if so fine. I prefer not to be taken advantage of when I buy anything.
The point is Molly that a buyer is going to give you as little as possible not even the wholesale price for a diamond. The point of the post was to say that a decent profit is what an honest dealer would sell it for but many try to get many times more than that and it doesn't seem really fair to the consumer does it ? If it does to you then I suppose you get what ever happens to you when you go out to buy a diamond. You should be able to expect to get value for your money not just pay multiple times for something that just isn't worth it.
If you want to pay a lot more than you should for a diamond then fine it's your money. Most people would like to get value for their dollar not be a victim. Of course that's your choice. I prefer a diamond that has value that's in alignment with what I paid for it.

Show me one!...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Let's try it this way DS.
Say McDonald's did scientific testing, and determined that 800 grams of fat was "Ideal" for a hamburger.
We'd be looking at "Ideal Big Macs"

It's not the method of obtaining the data that's in question, it's the subjective nature of the interpretation and nomenclature of the results.

Yes, we do pay quite a bit more for Yoram to cut our DBL branded cut for color OMB's as compared to "generic" yellow cushions.
We don't however, claim any sort of "scientific advantage" even though Yoram's work is the benchmark for modern OMB's in my opinion.

Thanks, David! The OP was asking about cost of the diamond in his original post. I think you and I are saying pretty much the same thing. Although I can't quite relate to Big Mac's in relation to fine diamonds!

See Sluggo, Yoram is the cutter of both AVC's and David's yellow cushions. He also cut my AVR, although he mostly cuts the cushions. Yoram's work costs more because it is really outstanding (regardless of how you measure that), takes more time, and they are relatively uncommon...(see David's note above about cost). I totally share David's sentiment that "Yoram's work is the benchmark for modern OMBs" or antique cushions.

Some people value a brand like Tiffany, Cartier, etc and pay a premium for that even though better cut diamonds may be found elsewhere. And that is fine. Others want the finest cut diamonds and are willing to pay for that which is fine, too. Ultimately the goal is to really fall in love with a nice quality diamond, and that is where personal preference comes in, and the person that matters the most in this thread chose an AVC. The OP's future fiancee can trade this diamond in at any time for full value of what they paid, so she is not stuck or tied into it in any way. They don't have to sell it if she changes her mind in the future.

Incidentally, Jonathan's (GOG) wife has worn a 4 ct M or N color AVC e-ring for the last several years, and she has the choice of a LOT of diamonds.

 

[pyramid]

Thing is with upgrade policies, whilst you get 95% of your money back and another choice of stone to buy, you do lose value. Say a diamond is bought in 2015 for $25000, diamond prices increase so in 2023 the diamond is worth $32000 - you want a diamond for $38,000 you like, you get back slightly under $25000 and pay another $13000 for the new stone, the jeweller takes your stone recertifies it puts it on sale for $32000 so makes a profit twice for nothing. You pay $13000 but he receives $7000 from the new buyer for no output plus he sold a new stone. You pay $13000 but get a stone which is now only worth $6000 more than your old stone, you lost $7000 in stored value you had achieved in 8 years of ownership.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thing is with upgrade policies, whilst you get 95% of your money back and another choice of stone to buy, you do lose value. Say a diamond is bought in 2015 for $25000, diamond prices increase so in 2023 the diamond is worth $32000 - you want a diamond for $38,000 you like, you get back slightly under $25000 and pay another $13000 for the new stone, the jeweller takes your stone recertifies it puts it on sale for $32000 so makes a profit twice for nothing. You pay $13000 but he receives $14000 7 from you and 7 from the new buyer for no output plus he sold a new stone. You pay $13000 but get a stone which is now only worth $6000 more than your old stone, you lost $7000 in stored value you had achieved in 8 years of ownership.

Now what if diamond prices drop 50% come 2023??...

 

[pyramid]

We wish DF

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Pyramid, actually, my first H&A diamond from GOG was bought in 2006 and diamond prices had a huge increase in 2011. I decided I wanted something else. Jonathan told me I would do better selling it than trading it in. So I consigned it with him and made a profit of $6,000 (after the fees), which I used to buy a 1 ct asscher for a RHR setting I had already bought plus I bought a stone to replace the one I sold. So I will stand by my premise that if you buy a very fine quality stone, you should be able to get your money back out either with a trade in or selling it (unless DF's idea came true and the bottom dropped out of the diamond market, and then we'd all be in the same boat),

 

[pyramid]

I want the pink diamonds to come down in price, after staring at Kenny's photos yesterday, I decided I don't want to put money towards as 30-40 point fancy pink and the color of Kenny's in that size will never be bought in this lifetime. At least the want has gone now so that's a good thing. Love the colours of Kenny's diamonds.

 

[pyramid]

I want the pink diamonds to come down in price, after staring at Kenny's photos yesterday, I decided I don't want to put money towards a 30-40 point fancy pink and the color of Kenny's in that size will never be bought in this lifetime. At least the want has gone now so that's a good thing. Love the colours of Kenny's diamonds.

 

[Dancing Fire]

We wish DF

Anything can happen...remember during the early 80's when a 1ct D IF RB hit $60k?? , well by 2004 you could have had purchased the same stone for about $21K.

 

[pyramid]

Pyramid, actually, my first H&A diamond from GOG was bought in 2006 and diamond prices had a huge increase in 2011. I decided I wanted something else. Jonathan told me I would do better selling it than trading it in. So I consigned it with him and made a profit of $6,000 (after the fees), which I used to buy a 1 ct asscher for a RHR setting I had already bought plus I bought a stone to replace the one I sold. So I will stand by my premise that if you buy a very fine quality stone, you should be able to get your money back out either with a trade in or selling it (unless DF's idea came true and the bottom dropped out of the diamond market, and then we'd all be in the same boat),

Oh yes I remember you writing about that before but you had to wait it is not so quick as we are liable to think, not with Good old Gold but with all vendors who quote their return policies. It does show the make and integrity of Jonathan and Good old Gold as a company that he did give you that choice as some would just go with the policy and say nothing probably and just talk up that you are getting a chance to exchange your stone. I also want people to know that I am in the UK and bought a 1.90ct diamond from Good old Gold in 2007 and returned it and got a refund so they stand by everything they say on their website. No worries, no talking you into buying a diamond, I was given free choice from the moment I received it to return it and it was as described it was just a personal choice not to keep.

 

[pyramid]

We wish DF

Anything can happen...remember during the early 80's when a 1ct D IF RB hit $60k?? , well by 2004 you could have had purchased the same stone for about $21K.

Yes remember Wink speaking about that. Garry Holloway, hold open the Argyle mine for us Pricescopers for when the prices come down. I'm sure Kenny will agree. Which mine does green diamond come from?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Pyramid, actually, my first H&A diamond from GOG was bought in 2006 and diamond prices had a huge increase in 2011. I decided I wanted something else. Jonathan told me I would do better selling it than trading it in. So I consigned it with him and made a profit of $6,000 (after the fees), which I used to buy a 1 ct asscher for a RHR setting I had already bought plus I bought a stone to replace the one I sold. So I will stand by my premise that if you buy a very fine quality stone, you should be able to get your money back out either with a trade in or selling it (unless DF's idea came true and the bottom dropped out of the diamond market, and then we'd all be in the same boat),

That would be great if that were to happened!...just imagine what we can get by upgrading our stones, your AVR and my Octavia. I can upgrade to a 3ct Octavia w/o much cash out of my wallet... I know, I know, just sitting here DAY DREAMING!...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Pyramid, actually, my first H&A diamond from GOG was bought in 2006 and diamond prices had a huge increase in 2011. I decided I wanted something else. Jonathan told me I would do better selling it than trading it in. So I consigned it with him and made a profit of $6,000 (after the fees), which I used to buy a 1 ct asscher for a RHR setting I had already bought plus I bought a stone to replace the one I sold. So I will stand by my premise that if you buy a very fine quality stone, you should be able to get your money back out either with a trade in or selling it (unless DF's idea came true and the bottom dropped out of the diamond market, and then we'd all be in the same boat),

That would be great if that were to happened!...just imagine what we can get by upgrading our stones, your AVR and my Octavia. I can upgrade to a 3ct Octavia w/o much cash out of my wallet... I know, I know, just sitting here DAY DREAMING!...

If that happened, poor Jon and the family business (and a lot of others) would go under!!! (But it is very fun to think about on our end! ) I've also been hoping for gold prices to go back to $300/oz so I can buy all the gold jewelry I want!

Pyramid, glad you also had a good experience with GOG!

 

[emmebee]

I wasn't actually even referring to the Chandelier Antique Cushion range of BE's (and completely understand your point about AGS ideal being a rating, not a subjective measure). I was just referring to Mark's ability to call in diamonds and evaluate them. At the very least, it's worth the OP seeing what else is out there, and comparing the cost of other similar shape diamonds to see if the cost trade-off is worth it. I am not saying it isn't, I am giving the suggestion because the OP asked for a good way to find other comps. And the comps are not readily available on the search tool like they would be for rounds.

 

[WinkHPD]

Thing is with upgrade policies, whilst you get 95% of your money back and another choice of stone to buy, you do lose value. Say a diamond is bought in 2015 for $25000, diamond prices increase so in 2023 the diamond is worth $32000 - you want a diamond for $38,000 you like, you get back slightly under $25000 and pay another $13000 for the new stone, the jeweller takes your stone recertifies it puts it on sale for $32000 so makes a profit twice for nothing. You pay $13000 but he receives $7000 from the new buyer for no output plus he sold a new stone. You pay $13000 but get a stone which is now only worth $6000 more than your old stone, you lost $7000 in stored value you had achieved in 8 years of ownership.

Pyramid,

I think you make a point, but have you considered that the person trading up is not required to make that trade up. Also, many of us here on Pricescope offer 100%, not 95%, but that is of minor consequence.

What that trade up does is set the absolute lowest price for that diamond for the consumer. If he or she can get a higher price for the diamond than trading in, he or she is perfectly justified in taking that higher price and then just buying the bigger diamond of her choice. If however, she can only get a lower price from someone, then she can always trade it in with the original seller for the agreed upon price.

Thus, the trade in acts as a protection for the consumer that this diamond will always have "X" value.

The same concept would be true of a buy back at "X" percent. Now the floor cash price of the diamond has been set. The consumer will never have to take less for the diamond than the buy back price, and is free to shop for a higher price if he or she desires. If no higher price is found, the buy back is there and guaranteed.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Obviously, I wrote my reply before Diamond Seeker's post which demonstrates absolutely the point I was trying to make, and even further positive information is that Jonathon was able to help her get the higher value.

There was in reality, no value lost in having the price go up.

Wink