Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamonds

[CuteTeacup]

Hi,

I am buying an engagement ring really soon and have narrowed down to 5 diamonds that I am considering so far and I really need some advice on which is "best". I've tried to do a lot of research on my own so far but this is sure isn't easy. I want to pick the best diamond that I can get for my gf that is within my budget. Advice is greatly appreciated! Sorry for the lengthy post and thanks a lot in advance!

With regards to diamond color, does D, E, F or even G make a big difference? If we are to put them next to each other, is it easy to differentiate the colors of the diamond under sunlight?

Does clarity grades between VVS1 to VS1 make a big difference? Typically what is the 'sweet' spot to settle for in terms of clarity? Does it affect the visible looks / brilliance / fire of the diamond?

These are the diamonds in question:

Diamond #1 round solitaire design
(this is considerably cheapest out of all the choices; only reason I listed this was because the sales suggested this diamond's cut being the best?)
2.64 carat
8.82 - 8.86 x 5.51mm
Color: G
Clarity: VVS1
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 62.3%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15.8%
Crown Angle: 35.2 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.1%
Pavilion angle: 40.8 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium to slightly thick
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None
Lower half length percentage: 80%
Star length percentage: 55%

Diamond #2 round solitaire design
2.52carat
8.71 - 8.74 x 5.45mm
Color: E
Clarity: VVS1
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 62.5%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15.7%
Crown Angle: 35.3 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.2%
Pavilion angle: 41.0 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None
Lower half length percentage: 80%
Star length percentage: 50%

Diamond #3 Round solitaire
2.41 carats
8.65 - 8.71 x 5.26mm
Color: D
Clarity: VS1
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 60.6%
Table Size percentage: 58%
Crown height percentage: 13.9%
Crown Angle: 33.4 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.4%
Pavilion angle: 41 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium to slightly thick
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

Diamond #4 Round center diamond with 2 tapered baguettes (adds up to about 0.5 carats but it's ungraded)
(this costs about the same as diamond #2 because it's a different brand and the setting is different)
2.17 carats
8.38 - 8.42 x 5.09mm
Color: D
Clarity: VVS2
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 60.6%
Table Size percentage: 58%
Crown height percentage: 14%
Crown Angle: 33.5 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.5%
Pavilion angle: 41.2 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

Diamond #5 Round center diamond with 2 tapered baguettes (adds up to about 0.5 carats but it's ungraded)
(this costs about the same as diamond #2 and #4 because it's a different brand and the setting is different)
2.06 carat
8.18 - 8.24 x 5.04mm
Color: D
Clarity: VVS2
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 61.4%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15%
Crown Angle: 34.5 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.0%
Pavilion angle: 40.6 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

Thank you so much.
I am so sorry for the very lengthy post. If pictures are going to help, please let me know as well and I will upload them. I really appreciate all the help that I can get.

 

[Niel]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

You won't see a difference between a vvs1 and a vs1 but your budget will.

Also, obviously there's a difference when comparing them side by side, a D and a G are 3 color grade apart.

However, I do think dropping down to an e or an f, no one will notice on the hand.

Is there a cultural reason you want such high color and clarity? Or are you just trying to get the best diamond for your money?

Are these gia graded? What are the prices?

 

[ame]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Hi,

I am buying an engagement ring really soon and have narrowed down to 5 diamonds that I am considering so far and I really need some advice on which is "best". I've tried to do a lot of research on my own so far but this is sure isn't easy. I want to pick the best diamond that I can get for my gf that is within my budget. Advice is greatly appreciated! Sorry for the lengthy post and thanks a lot in advance!

With regards to diamond color, does D, E, F or even G make a big difference? If we are to put them next to each other, is it easy to differentiate the colors of the diamond under sunlight?

Does clarity grades between VVS1 to VS1 make a big difference? Typically what is the 'sweet' spot to settle for in terms of clarity? Does it affect the visible looks / brilliance / fire of the diamond?

These are the diamonds in question:

Diamond #1 round solitaire design
(this is considerably cheapest out of all the choices; only reason I listed this was because the sales suggested this diamond's cut being the best?)
2.64 carat
8.82 - 8.86 x 5.51mm
Color: G
Clarity: VVS1
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 62.3%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15.8%
Crown Angle: 35.2 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.1%
Pavilion angle: 40.8 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium to slightly thick
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None
Lower half length percentage: 80%
Star length percentage: 55%

Diamond #2 round solitaire design
2.52carat
8.71 - 8.74 x 5.45mm
Color: E
Clarity: VVS1
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 62.5%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15.7%
Crown Angle: 35.3 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.2%
Pavilion angle: 41.0 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None
Lower half length percentage: 80%
Star length percentage: 50%

Diamond #3 Round solitaire
2.41 carats
8.65 - 8.71 x 5.26mm
Color: D
Clarity: VS1
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 60.6%
Table Size percentage: 58%
Crown height percentage: 13.9%
Crown Angle: 33.4 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.4%
Pavilion angle: 41 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium to slightly thick
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

Diamond #4 Round center diamond with 2 tapered baguettes (adds up to about 0.5 carats but it's ungraded)
(this costs about the same as diamond #2 because it's a different brand and the setting is different)
2.17 carats
8.38 - 8.42 x 5.09mm
Color: D
Clarity: VVS2
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 60.6%
Table Size percentage: 58%
Crown height percentage: 14%
Crown Angle: 33.5 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.5%
Pavilion angle: 41.2 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

Diamond #5 Round center diamond with 2 tapered baguettes (adds up to about 0.5 carats but it's ungraded)
(this costs about the same as diamond #2 and #4 because it's a different brand and the setting is different)
2.06 carat
8.18 - 8.24 x 5.04mm
Color: D
Clarity: VVS2
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 61.4%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15%
Crown Angle: 34.5 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.0%
Pavilion angle: 40.6 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

Thank you so much.
I am so sorry for the very lengthy post. If pictures are going to help, please let me know as well and I will upload them. I really appreciate all the help that I can get.

The last is the best cut of the bunch. Cut is what you want to focus on. With as much as you're spending (HI, btw!) you guys need to focus on CUT, and less on color and clarity. You're not going to see the difference between a VVS and a VS without a loupe or microscope. My sweet spot would be a VS1. These are all branded, and these brands are NOT going to sell a stone that's not eye-clean. As for the color, I would say a G will be the best bang for your buck. Side by side, yes you will see the warmth in the body at this size range esp. But on their own, no. Color is graded face down, not face up. So they should all be very bright face up--IF they were all well cut.

As I told your lovely other half, they're not all well cut. Some have tables that are larger than they should be, some are too deep, some have crown angles that are a little out of range. There are strikes against nearly all of them that make them not really worth the pricetag (in my opinion.) Depth and a thicker girdle means you lose spread, meaning it won't look as large as it should for it's carat weight. However--As I told her, your eyes NEED to make the final selection as you guys might not LIKE perfect on paper. I gave her a cheat sheet...with this kind of budget give that SA your cheat sheet and tell them to stick to it or not bother showing you any. For that budget they WILL find you stones in that range.

 

[JoshuaNiamehr]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Here is a really great resource within pricescope on diamond cut:

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-round

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

You won't see a difference between a vvs1 and a vs1 but your budget will.

Also, obviously there's a difference when comparing them side by side, a D and a G are 3 color grade apart.

However, I do think dropping down to an e or an f, no one will notice on the hand.

Is there a cultural reason you want such high color and clarity? Or are you just trying to get the best diamond for your money?

Are these gia graded? What are the prices?

Thanks a lot for the quick response!
I am leaning towards D / E for the most part because I am worried about the diamond looking "yellowish". Between a D and an E, is there a discernible different in the eyes' of most people?

In a way, I am trying to get the best diamond for my money. I do not mind dropping the clarity and color, but I probably will still prefer F color and up and VS being the lowest clarity grade. However even with a F color and VS grade, it is still not possible to get anything >3 carat for my budget.

What is your recommendation?

The first 3 diamonds are graded by Tiffany in house. The last 2 diamonds are graded by GIA and sold by HW and Graff respectively. I am really at a dilemma as to which diamond to go with, and which brand is "better".

Please let me know. Thank you!

 

[ame]

Brand wise that is debatable and subjective. I would take the money and go outside of the brands altogether if that was an option. But since you're looking at brands, you want to look at cut quality and go with the brand that you have the most appreciation for. Which store and brand made you feel best? Which had the setting you most preferred?

If they're cut well (and the 5th one you list, the smallest which I thought was the HW? is the only one cut close to well, as I told your lovely), you're not going to see a discernible difference in color face up between a d, e, f unless side by side. Those, nor a G, will look yellow unless picking up color from their surroundings, which diamonds do. The "warmth" in the body of a g (what little there will be) will only be visible from the side, not from the top.

Of these, I'd go with the last one. But if you guys want Tiffany, and closer to 3ct, look at G/VS1 and VS2 range and have the SA use my cheat sheet for the cut range specs. A G VS1 is going to be nice and white and bright and CLEAN, without overpaying for what you cannot see. You'll get the best bang spec wise for your buck.

I don't take a lot of stock in Tiffany inhouse grading bec they can really say whatever they want to say it is. GIA and AGS are outside third party industry standard labs. In theory, Tiffany should be adhering to their standards.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

The last is the best cut of the bunch. Cut is what you want to focus on. With as much as you're spending (HI, btw!) you guys need to focus on CUT, and less on color and clarity. You're not going to see the difference between a VVS and a VS without a loupe or microscope. My sweet spot would be a VS1. These are all branded, and these brands are NOT going to sell a stone that's not eye-clean. As for the color, I would say a G will be the best bang for your buck. Side by side, yes you will see the warmth in the body at this size range esp. But on their own, no. Color is graded face down, not face up. So they should all be very bright face up--IF they were all well cut.

As I told your lovely other half, they're not all well cut. Some have tables that are larger than they should be, some are too deep, some have crown angles that are a little out of range. There are strikes against nearly all of them that make them not really worth the pricetag (in my opinion.) Depth and a thicker girdle means you lose spread, meaning it won't look as large as it should for it's carat weight. However--As I told her, your eyes NEED to make the final selection as you guys might not LIKE perfect on paper. I gave her a cheat sheet...with this kind of budget give that SA your cheat sheet and tell them to stick to it or not bother showing you any. For that budget they WILL find you stones in that range.

Hi, this helps a lot!
So if the diamonds are compared side by side, there would be a discernible difference to an extent, but if it is between a D, E or F, would it be much harder to tell?

So if they are well cut, diamonds will look brighter or "whiter" than their color grades? Or a better cut diamond will just look better overall even than a diamond that is graded slightly better in terms of color and clarity?

I will have those specs sent to my SAs and have them try to find something. All 3 of these brands do not have a lot of stock on hand, esp for a D or a E diamond, so I guess one way to do it is to lower the color and clarity.

In your opinion, is the cut the most important factor?

Thank you so much. This is really informative and helpful and I really appreciate it!

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Here is a really great resource within pricescope on diamond cut:

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-round

Thank you.
This is very helpful as well. So Class 1A is the best on paper followed by the subsequent classes. However, is there a different standard for the international fine trade cut as compared to the American ideal cut? Is it just a different style of cutting diamonds?

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Actually, while some people are more sensitive than others, most people cannot discern between D and G face-up.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Brand wise that is debatable and subjective. I would take the money and go outside of the brands altogether if that was an option. But since you're looking at brands, you want to look at cut quality and go with the brand that you have the most appreciation for. Which store and brand made you feel best? Which had the setting you most preferred?

If they're cut well (and the 5th one you list, the smallest which I thought was the HW? is the only one cut close to well, as I told your lovely), you're not going to see a discernible difference in color face up between a d, e, f unless side by side. Those, nor a G, will look yellow unless picking up color from their surroundings, which diamonds do. The "warmth" in the body of a g (what little there will be) will only be visible from the side, not from the top.

Of these, I'd go with the last one. But if you guys want Tiffany, and closer to 3ct, look at G/VS1 and VS2 range and have the SA use my cheat sheet for the cut range specs. A G VS1 is going to be nice and white and bright and CLEAN, without overpaying for what you cannot see. You'll get the best bang spec wise for your buck.

I don't take a lot of stock in Tiffany inhouse grading bec they can really say whatever they want to say it is. GIA and AGS are outside third party industry standard labs. In theory, Tiffany should be adhering to their standards.

Personally, I like (liked to be exact) Tiffany the most. Initially I felt that Graff and HW's designs had too much metal covering the sides of the diamond while Tiffany's prongs were less intrusive on the sides and exposed the diamond itself more. However, I am now more receptive to HW and Graff. Service at Tiffany is/was great, except for something that happened which they claimed was unintentional. I think my gf told you what happened right? if it wasn't for the store credit I have with them, I would have walked away.

In your opinion, is the 4th diamond (Graff) horribly cut? I like the HW diamond a lot as well but out of all the diamond, it's the smallest. The inclusions seem to be a lot even for a VVS2, which I don't know if may affect the looks of the diamond's sparkle? Even the Tiffany's VS1 and Graff VVS2 looked a lot cleaner than that.

So in your opinion there is no need for us to worry about the feathers / crystals / clouds that may be present in a diamond, as long as it's VS or higher in clarity?

I just sent the SAs those specs so I am hoping to hear back from them tomorrow.

At Tiffany, they kept emphasizing that they guarantee their diamonds and that they are stricter than GIA. So in your opinion that is all fluff as well?

Thank you so much once again.

 

[ame]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

The last is the best cut of the bunch. Cut is what you want to focus on. With as much as you're spending (HI, btw!) you guys need to focus on CUT, and less on color and clarity. You're not going to see the difference between a VVS and a VS without a loupe or microscope. My sweet spot would be a VS1. These are all branded, and these brands are NOT going to sell a stone that's not eye-clean. As for the color, I would say a G will be the best bang for your buck. Side by side, yes you will see the warmth in the body at this size range esp. But on their own, no. Color is graded face down, not face up. So they should all be very bright face up--IF they were all well cut.

As I told your lovely other half, they're not all well cut. Some have tables that are larger than they should be, some are too deep, some have crown angles that are a little out of range. There are strikes against nearly all of them that make them not really worth the pricetag (in my opinion.) Depth and a thicker girdle means you lose spread, meaning it won't look as large as it should for it's carat weight. However--As I told her, your eyes NEED to make the final selection as you guys might not LIKE perfect on paper. I gave her a cheat sheet...with this kind of budget give that SA your cheat sheet and tell them to stick to it or not bother showing you any. For that budget they WILL find you stones in that range.

Hi, this helps a lot!
So if the diamonds are compared side by side, there would be a discernible difference to an extent, but if it is between a D, E or F, would it be much harder to tell?

So if they are well cut, diamonds will look brighter or "whiter" than their color grades? Or a better cut diamond will just look better overall even than a diamond that is graded slightly better in terms of color and clarity?

I will have those specs sent to my SAs and have them try to find something. All 3 of these brands do not have a lot of stock on hand, esp for a D or a E diamond, so I guess one way to do it is to lower the color and clarity.

In your opinion, is the cut the most important factor?

Thank you so much. This is really informative and helpful and I really appreciate it!

Yes, cut quality trumps ALL. If you were to put well cut stones beside stones that are slightly or even more inferior cut, you WOULD see the difference. They'd be brighter, firier and all around more brilliant that stones that miss the mark. Id wager if you put a mediocrely cut D VVS1 stone next to a well cut G VS2 , you'd pick the G in a heartbeat. There IS that much of a difference when a stone is well cut.

The last one you posted passes muster-- that meets the specs, though I assume you want a larger stone. For your budget if you left the brands and went with a PS vendor like Good Old Gold, High Performance Diamonds or Brian Gavin Diamonds, you'd likely hit that 3ct mark with that budget AND get the most insanely well cut stone ever. I sent a few links, albeit smaller than 3ct, to her earlier, just for comparison sake.

Color wise: side by side you MIGHT see a slight difference side by side right next to each other between the colors but I doubt it. If they were all cut equally well, not likely. Color is graded face down with loose stones, not mounted and not face up like they are when mounted. So likely any color you're picking up is from ambient surroundings. Have you been able to see any of these out from under the store spotlights? Maybe beside a window in diffused natural light and in sunlight?

Stock is going to be rough right now, you're fighting against Valentines proposals and already quick selling stock that isn't likely replenished quickly in that size range. But with that budget, there is no excuse for them not to be working overtime to find something within the specs I sent. If that SA isn't doing it, find a new one.

 

[ame]

Brand wise that is debatable and subjective. I would take the money and go outside of the brands altogether if that was an option. But since you're looking at brands, you want to look at cut quality and go with the brand that you have the most appreciation for. Which store and brand made you feel best? Which had the setting you most preferred?

If they're cut well (and the 5th one you list, the smallest which I thought was the HW? is the only one cut close to well, as I told your lovely), you're not going to see a discernible difference in color face up between a d, e, f unless side by side. Those, nor a G, will look yellow unless picking up color from their surroundings, which diamonds do. The "warmth" in the body of a g (what little there will be) will only be visible from the side, not from the top.

Of these, I'd go with the last one. But if you guys want Tiffany, and closer to 3ct, look at G/VS1 and VS2 range and have the SA use my cheat sheet for the cut range specs. A G VS1 is going to be nice and white and bright and CLEAN, without overpaying for what you cannot see. You'll get the best bang spec wise for your buck.

I don't take a lot of stock in Tiffany inhouse grading bec they can really say whatever they want to say it is. GIA and AGS are outside third party industry standard labs. In theory, Tiffany should be adhering to their standards.

Personally, I like (liked to be exact) Tiffany the most. Initially I felt that Graff and HW's designs had too much metal covering the sides of the diamond while Tiffany's prongs were less intrusive on the sides and exposed the diamond itself more. However, I am now more receptive to HW and Graff. Service at Tiffany is/was great, except for something that happened which they claimed was unintentional. I think my gf told you what happened right? if it wasn't for the store credit I have with them, I would have walked away.

In your opinion, is the 4th diamond (Graff) horribly cut? I like the HW diamond a lot as well but out of all the diamond, it's the smallest. The inclusions seem to be a lot even for a VVS2, which I don't know if may affect the looks of the diamond's sparkle? Even the Tiffany's VS1 and Graff VVS2 looked a lot cleaner than that.

So in your opinion there is no need for us to worry about the feathers / crystals / clouds that may be present in a diamond, as long as it's VS or higher in clarity?

I just sent the SAs those specs so I am hoping to hear back from them tomorrow.

At Tiffany, they kept emphasizing that they guarantee their diamonds and that they are stricter than GIA. So in your opinion that is all fluff as well?

Thank you so much once again.

[/quote]

Yes I call BS on their "guarantee". And their strictness. I don't think they're going to sell a VS2 that's not eye clean but I don't think they're stricter than an industry standard lab. If they were, they'd select stones with better cut quality than they do.

She told me and I still am bummed for you. They better be working overtime to fix that massive blunder. IF you don't continue with them, what will you do with that credit? Bec that's a LOT of money to not use on this, it would be ideal to get the money refunded, at least.

The best of them all so far is whatever the 2.06 is. I thought that was HW? But the size for this price point is painful, though besides it being nicer cut, you're paying for more high end brand, color, clarity and baguettes.

This one:
Diamond #5 Round center diamond with 2 tapered baguettes (adds up to about 0.5 carats but it's ungraded)
(this costs about the same as diamond #2 and #4 because it's a different brand and the setting is different)
2.06 carat
8.18 - 8.24 x 5.04mm
Color: D
Clarity: VVS2
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 61.4%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15%
Crown Angle: 34.5 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.0%
Pavilion angle: 40.6 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

I don't care for the Graff. I don't like the table, or the angles. It will be less firey and more white light return, it's getting too close to a 60/60. Some folks like that. I am not one. I'm more 55 table end of things.

Regarding the clarity:
Diamonds are graded at 10x. Not higher than that. You're likely viewing these at higher mag in the store than that. When you're looking at stones in the VVS clarity range, the grade maker inclusions are not going to affect the stone adversely in any way. They're so minute that you're going to need a 30x or greater scope to see them. Even if a plot has several things noted, that level of clarity is insanely clean. Even a VS1 is super clean. That's what I call the sweet spot. Still super clean and "mind clean" but not overpaying for what you cannot see.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Yes, cut quality trumps ALL. If you were to put well cut stones beside stones that are slightly or even more inferior cut, you WOULD see the difference. They'd be brighter, firier and all around more brilliant that stones that miss the mark. Id wager if you put a mediocrely cut D VVS1 stone next to a well cut G VS2 , you'd pick the G in a heartbeat. There IS that much of a difference when a stone is well cut.

The last one you posted passes muster-- that meets the specs, though I assume you want a larger stone. For your budget if you left the brands and went with a PS vendor like Good Old Gold, High Performance Diamonds or Brian Gavin Diamonds, you'd likely hit that 3ct mark with that budget AND get the most insanely well cut stone ever. I sent a few links, albeit smaller than 3ct, to her earlier, just for comparison sake.

Color wise: side by side you MIGHT see a slight difference side by side right next to each other between the colors but I doubt it. If they were all cut equally well, not likely. Color is graded face down with loose stones, not mounted and not face up like they are when mounted. So likely any color you're picking up is from ambient surroundings. Have you been able to see any of these out from under the store spotlights? Maybe beside a window in diffused natural light and in sunlight?

Stock is going to be rough right now, you're fighting against Valentines proposals and already quick selling stock that isn't likely replenished quickly in that size range. But with that budget, there is no excuse for them not to be working overtime to find something within the specs I sent. If that SA isn't doing it, find a new one.

Thank you so much for your responses. I am learning so much.

In your opinion is it better to go with a brand, or is it better to just buy a non-branded ring? I've been told many times about how brand names offer better support / cleaning / services, but their markup at the same time is a lot higher. For the most part I am just worried about getting ripped off because I don't know how to select a good stone and I don't know which seller to trust either. She hasn't shown me those links but I will check them out tonight.

I have seen only 1 of them under natural light, but due to the way the store is set up, there's not a lot of natural light coming in and they wouldn't allow us to bring the ring outside for security reasons.

So your advice is to not settle for any of the rings, except #5 if we must choose 1 from that list? Or would you scrap all 5 altogether, and have the SAs find something according to the cheat sheet?

Thanks!

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Yes I call BS on their "guarantee". And their strictness. I don't think they're going to sell a VS2 that's not eye clean but I don't think they're stricter than an industry standard lab. If they were, they'd select stones with better cut quality than they do.

She told me and I still am bummed for you. They better be working overtime to fix that massive blunder. IF you don't continue with them, what will you do with that credit? Bec that's a LOT of money to not use on this, it would be ideal to get the money refunded, at least.

The best of them all so far is whatever the 2.06 is. I thought that was HW? But the size for this price point is painful, though besides it being nicer cut, you're paying for more high end brand, color, clarity and baguettes.

This one:
Diamond #5 Round center diamond with 2 tapered baguettes (adds up to about 0.5 carats but it's ungraded)
(this costs about the same as diamond #2 and #4 because it's a different brand and the setting is different)
2.06 carat
8.18 - 8.24 x 5.04mm
Color: D
Clarity: VVS2
Fluorescence: None
Triple EX diamond (Precision of cut, symmetry and polish)
Total Depth percentage: 61.4%
Table Size percentage: 56%
Crown height percentage: 15%
Crown Angle: 34.5 degrees
Pavilion depth percentage: 43.0%
Pavilion angle: 40.6 degrees
Girdle thickness: Medium
Girdle finish: Faceted
Cutlet: None

I don't care for the Graff. I don't like the table, or the angles. It will be less firey and more white light return, it's getting too close to a 60/60. Some folks like that. I am not one. I'm more 55 table end of things.

Regarding the clarity:
Diamonds are graded at 10x. Not higher than that. You're likely viewing these at higher mag in the store than that. When you're looking at stones in the VVS clarity range, the grade maker inclusions are not going to affect the stone adversely in any way. They're so minute that you're going to need a 30x or greater scope to see them. Even if a plot has several things noted, that level of clarity is insanely clean. Even a VS1 is super clean. That's what I call the sweet spot. Still super clean and "mind clean" but not overpaying for what you cannot see.

I don't think they will be willing to refund the money to my card or issue a check. Most likely it will remain as store credit which I will then need to sell or use it somehow. However I rarely ever shop at Tiffany's. My gf's not that into their jewelry.

What's a 60/60 diamond? Between a 55 and 60, what are the main differences and pros and cons of each?

By fiery, you mean it will return a bigger spectrum of colors (such as a rainbow) when light is shown on the diamond right? Whereas more white light return would just be a really white diamond with less reflections of other color? And a fiery diamond is in general, more desirable?

Thank you!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

#4 is not horribly cut. None of them are horribly cut. All of the stones you have posted fall within ideal ranges, there is nothing from the information presented that suggests one stone is better than another.

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

You can always buy wedding bands with store credit.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

#4 is not horribly cut. None of them are horribly cut. All of the stones you have posted fall within ideal ranges, there is nothing from the information presented that suggests one stone is better than another.

can you please elaborate on this?
So what are the factors that you use to determine if one stone is better than another?

Thanks!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Based on the proportions of the stones, you can make predictions about what happens when light hits the stone.

None of the diamonds you posted have proportions that predict poor performance.

You can use HCA to learn if the angles are likely to work together or not. Remember that this is very quick and dirty, and that it is rejection-only tool, do not pick a stone /because/ it has a lower HCA score than another. It is definitely better if you get to compare them in person or use an Ideal-Scope or ASET.

Here are the HCA scores https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
Scores of <2 are considered excellent, scores of 2-4 are very good, and stones above 4 should generally be rejected. Stones scoring between 2-3 are still definitely worth following up on. Lower scores (less than 1) are not necessarily better than 1-2.
#1 2.0
#2 3.3, this is borderline. You may or may not see any visible difference in brightness. Stones with this combo can be either good or not so good.
#3 1.1
#4 2.5 Generally safe proportions, but certain things like not very tight precision could throw things off.
#5 .7 Check for darkness.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Based on the proportions of the stones, you can make predictions about what happens when light hits the stone.

None of the diamonds you posted have proportions that predict poor performance.

You can use HCA to learn if the angles are likely to work together or not. Remember that this is very quick and dirty, and that it is rejection-only tool, do not pick a stone /because/ it has a lower HCA score than another. It is definitely better if you get to compare them in person or use an Ideal-Scope or ASET.

Here are the HCA scores https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
Scores of <2 are considered excellent, scores of 2-4 are very good, and stones above 4 should generally be rejected. Stones scoring between 2-3 are still definitely worth following up on. Lower scores (less than 1) are not necessarily better than 1-2.
#1 2.0
#2 3.3, this is borderline. You may or may not see any visible difference in brightness. Stones with this combo can be either good or not so good.
#3 1.1
#4 2.5 Generally safe proportions, but certain things like not very tight precision could throw things off.
#5 .7 Check for darkness.

Hi,

So with regards to HCA tool, generally as long as the score is below 4, the diamond itself is worth considering, right?
Is a <2 diamond always better than a diamond rated 2-4, or other factors should be considered as well?

With regards to #2, so this can either be a really good diamond or a really awful one?

About #4, what do you mean by tight precision?

About #5, so I should inspect the center of the diamond to see if it is dark / not reflecting light well?

Thanks!

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Another question.

Diamonds #3 and #5 has feathers at the edges of the diamond according to the diagram. It can be seen from the bottom of the diamond, and doesn't show up on the top view of the diamond according to the plot.

Is this very risky? I've been reading on pricescope and some have said that this is basically a fissure / fracture on the surface?

Please advise. Thanks!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

2-4 HCA stones should be considered based on how easy it is to get more information. If there's already a picture, or you can go see it in person at Tiffany&Co, I would not let a 2-4 score stop you from taking a look. There is basically no cost to you.

Buying on the Internet with no picture on a "virtual inventory" stone that the vendor needs to call in for photos, or you may need to make a refundable deposit before you can see it, pass.

#2 when I say it can be good or not really good, I mean it can be as identically beautiful as #1 or #3, or it may have slightly reduced brightness that you only notice in certain situations. as I said, no stone you listed should be be considered "really awful" at all!

#4: there are fewer angle combinations that work for 58% tables than for 56 or 57 tables. also, the angles reported are averages and you don't know the variance... the average crown and pavilion angles, when there are really 8. 41.2 is kind of one of those razor's edge things... 41.1 is fine with that crown, 41.3 gets trickier. So a situation with a 41.2 with high variance in symmetry is not desirable.

Of course the other thing to remember is that not only are these numbers averaged, they are rounded. If the Graff and HW stones carry GIA reports, and will thus be rounded to the nearest half angle (.0/.5) for the crown and rounded up to a fifth of an angle for the pavilion. So in situation of #4, it may have an average pavilion angle of 41.1 that has been rounded to 41.2

#5 may appear dark due to head shadow. Head shadow is greater when viewed closely.

You have absolutely NOTHING to worry about in these ultra-high clarity stones.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

2-4 HCA stones should be considered based on how easy it is to get more information. If there's already a picture, or you can go see it in person at Tiffany&Co, I would not let a 2-4 score stop you from taking a look. There is basically no cost to you.

Buying on the Internet with no picture on a "virtual inventory" stone that the vendor needs to call in for photos, or you may need to make a refundable deposit before you can see it, pass.

#2 when I say it can be good or not really good, I mean it can be as identically beautiful as #1 or #3, or it may have slightly reduced brightness that you only notice in certain situations. as I said, no stone you listed should be be considered "really awful" at all!

#4: a 58% tables are slightly less tolerant of low precision; that is, there are fewer angle combinations that work than for 56 or 57 tables. also, the angles reported are averages and you don't know the variance... the average crown and pavilion angles, when there are really 8. 41.2 is kind of one of those razor's edge things... 41.1 is fine with that crown, 41.3 gets trickier. So a situation with a 41.2 with high variance in symmetry is not desirable.

Of course the other thing to remember is that not only are these numbers averaged, they are rounded. If the Graff and HW stones carry GIA reports, and will thus be rounded to the nearest half angle (.0/.5) for the crown and rounded up to a fifth of an angle for the pavilion. So in situation of #4, it may have an average pavilion angle of 41.1 that has been rounded to 41.2

#5 may appear dark due to head shadow. Head shadow is greater when viewed closely.

You have absolutely NOTHING to worry about in these ultra-high clarity stones.

I've seen a couple of those rings in person so far but rest are being sent over. So while we're in the store, is there anything to pay special attention to? Or to basically just pick which "seems" to be the "best"?

About #2: What is the best way to "test" if the diamond itself has reduced brightness?

With regards to #4, what is the best way for me to examine the ring? Since the diamond is from Graff, does this typically mean precision may be "better" than average? In terms of throwing things off, will the diamond not be as fiery / bright, or how will it affect the diamond?

About #5, so i should look at the diamond more closely and look for shadows in the center or?

But overall, you think I will be fine with any of the 5? If you have to pick top 2 choices out of those 5, which will you go with? So the feathers being on the "edges" are fine too?

Thanks!!!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

At this point you need to forget the numbers and just pick the stone you like best, a lot of this comes down to preference. Re the possible issues that I pointed out, if you don't notice them, they are basically not a problem. Do try to look at the stones in various lighting environments... sometimes you like stone A in sunlight and stone B indoors. The big name jewelers are not going to have 2ct fine quality stones with noticeably poor diamonds.

 

[ame]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Yes, cut quality trumps ALL. If you were to put well cut stones beside stones that are slightly or even more inferior cut, you WOULD see the difference. They'd be brighter, firier and all around more brilliant that stones that miss the mark. Id wager if you put a mediocrely cut D VVS1 stone next to a well cut G VS2 , you'd pick the G in a heartbeat. There IS that much of a difference when a stone is well cut.

The last one you posted passes muster-- that meets the specs, though I assume you want a larger stone. For your budget if you left the brands and went with a PS vendor like Good Old Gold, High Performance Diamonds or Brian Gavin Diamonds, you'd likely hit that 3ct mark with that budget AND get the most insanely well cut stone ever. I sent a few links, albeit smaller than 3ct, to her earlier, just for comparison sake.

Color wise: side by side you MIGHT see a slight difference side by side right next to each other between the colors but I doubt it. If they were all cut equally well, not likely. Color is graded face down with loose stones, not mounted and not face up like they are when mounted. So likely any color you're picking up is from ambient surroundings. Have you been able to see any of these out from under the store spotlights? Maybe beside a window in diffused natural light and in sunlight?

Stock is going to be rough right now, you're fighting against Valentines proposals and already quick selling stock that isn't likely replenished quickly in that size range. But with that budget, there is no excuse for them not to be working overtime to find something within the specs I sent. If that SA isn't doing it, find a new one.

Thank you so much for your responses. I am learning so much.

In your opinion is it better to go with a brand, or is it better to just buy a non-branded ring? I've been told many times about how brand names offer better support / cleaning / services, but their markup at the same time is a lot higher. For the most part I am just worried about getting ripped off because I don't know how to select a good stone and I don't know which seller to trust either. She hasn't shown me those links but I will check them out tonight.

I have seen only 1 of them under natural light, but due to the way the store is set up, there's not a lot of natural light coming in and they wouldn't allow us to bring the ring outside for security reasons.

So your advice is to not settle for any of the rings, except #5 if we must choose 1 from that list? Or would you scrap all 5 altogether, and have the SAs find something according to the cheat sheet?

Thanks!

If you don't love #5 I'd scrap them all. That is the only one well cut on the list. I never said they're horrible, they're just not well cut. Ideally you want a balance of white light return for brightness and color light return for fire. A large table above a 57% is not going to give you both. The inclusions are not the issue. That's not got anything to do with the CUT QUALITY. Two different animals. The feathers in a VS1 or above clarity are likely not going to pose an issue. Can you see these without a loupe? Are the rings actually fully cleaned by the salesperson before you're looking at them to make sure you're not looking at little bits of skin and other grime collected on the stone from people touching them? You haven't seen them all in person yet, so you're just seeing a list of inclusions.

I don't use the HCA as an end all be all tool. It helps weed out stones into a range of what MIGHT be well cut, but it's not how I decide to buy stones. It is one of MANY tools. I start by what falls within ranges in that cheat sheet and go from there.

What "support" and "services" do the brands offer that you're expecting? You can get cleaning from just about any jeweler, and if you buy from the right vendor, the buyback and upgrade policies are usually better outside of a big brand. I don't think branded is worth it, even at this price point, because most of these brands do not focus on cut. They sell you the "experience," and focus more on color and clarity than cut quality. You're paying for their name and you can get better if you leave their umbrellas. You'll get more for your money if you walk away from the brands. None of us here will let you get ripped off either way. Brand or not.

Since you're buying for someone not overwhelmed with the Tiffany brand, I'd figure out how to handle the credit, since a refund is not a possiblity, and go elsewhere. Either HW or Graff or non-branded through one of the vendors I mentioned to her.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

If you don't love #5 I'd scrap them all. That is the only one well cut on the list. I never said they're horrible, they're just not well cut. Ideally you want a balance of white light return for brightness and color light return for fire. A large table above a 57% is not going to give you both. The inclusions are not the issue. That's not got anything to do with the CUT QUALITY. Two different animals. The feathers in a VS1 or above clarity are likely not going to pose an issue. Can you see these without a loupe? Are the rings actually fully cleaned by the salesperson before you're looking at them to make sure you're not looking at little bits of skin and other grime collected on the stone from people touching them? You haven't seen them all in person yet, so you're just seeing a list of inclusions.

I don't use the HCA as an end all be all tool. It helps weed out stones into a range of what MIGHT be well cut, but it's not how I decide to buy stones. It is one of MANY tools. I start by what falls within ranges in that cheat sheet and go from there.

What "support" and "services" do the brands offer that you're expecting? You can get cleaning from just about any jeweler, and if you buy from the right vendor, the buyback and upgrade policies are usually better outside of a big brand. I don't think branded is worth it, even at this price point, because most of these brands do not focus on cut. They sell you the "experience," and focus more on color and clarity than cut quality. You're paying for their name and you can get better if you leave their umbrellas. You'll get more for your money if you walk away from the brands. None of us here will let you get ripped off either way. Brand or not.

Since you're buying for someone not overwhelmed with the Tiffany brand, I'd figure out how to handle the credit, since a refund is not a possiblity, and go elsewhere. Either HW or Graff or non-branded through one of the vendors I mentioned to her.

Thank you so much.
I saw one of the rings today and I think I saw what you mean. The diamond seems to be more white than returning a spectrum of color for fire. So the white is the brilliance, and the color is the fire? It was somewhat pretty white, and the color spectrum seems to be less compared to another diamond we saw just for comparison purposes.

So with a better cut diamond, there should be an equal amount of color and white? Or is the white due to the D color? So diamonds generally that fall within the cheat sheet specs will shine better than say #1 to #4?

I was told they'll resize the ring for free if my gf ever needs a bigger size and repairs if the diamond is coming loose from the prongs. Cleaning is also included but I know it's not a big deal since one can clean / steam the diamond at home easily. And yea I agree they're definitely trying to sell the experience. I am not good with diamonds, so I am somewhat worried about getting ripped off / scammed, which is why I figured, with a big brand, it should be safer.

I am still debating what to really do. Truthfully, I do not want to buy from Tiffany. The experience is just not pleasant. Buying from Graff / HW / Cartier / other retailers is probably going to be a much more pleasant experience. I feel that they do not deserve my business for all that crap they gave me. But at the same time I have all that credit sitting around so the easiest way out is to buy from Tiffany...

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

I saw one of the rings today and I think I saw what you mean. The diamond seems to be more white than returning a spectrum of color for fire. So the white is the brilliance, and the color is the fire? It was somewhat pretty white, and the color spectrum seems to be less compared to another diamond we saw just for comparison purposes.

Which one was this, 1-5?

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

I saw one of the rings today and I think I saw what you mean. The diamond seems to be more white than returning a spectrum of color for fire. So the white is the brilliance, and the color is the fire? It was somewhat pretty white, and the color spectrum seems to be less compared to another diamond we saw just for comparison purposes.

Which one was this, 1-5?

#4
I am not sure if the white is due to the cut, or if its due to the D color itself.

The other diamond we used for comparison is a G VS1. There's a lot more "vibrant" colors coming off the diamond, but I may be very wrong because I do not have trained eyes nor do I really know what to look out for specifically. We couldn't really see the yellowish color of the G face up, but from bottom sideways angle, we could see a very faint yellow color, which is really barely noticeable (to my eyes, at least).

So what's everyone's recommendation on how I should proceed? I have the SAs looking for diamonds within that cheat sheet. Find those diamonds, and then compare with the existing diamonds 1-5? Or?

Thank you!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

No, you DO have very good eyes for this!

Yes, face-up, most people cannot tell D apart from G. From the side, a tint in a G is visible in comparison to D, and G is at the highest end of "near colorless" so you got that observation spot on!

And yes, #4 is geared towards white light return and you may notice less fire (colors) coming from it than other stones. So you are also on point there.

Have some more confidence in what you see, and stop worrying about the numbers so much.

 

[ame]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

You definitely saw what I was explaining in terms of "body color" vs face up, as well as white light return vs color light return. So you're definitely catching on. If the G did not offend your eyes, and you could not see any offensive inclusions (I'd assume you saw NO inclusions) in the VS1, that's about where I'd look on specs. Best bang for the buck, which will hopefully allow a larger stone. Keep within the cheat sheet if you can, so you can get the best spread and the best light return, guaranteeing a great balance of fire AND brightness and not too far on either end. You will see the difference between #4 and what a stone in the cheat sheet gets you in terms of light return.

I absolutely get what you mean about going where you have this huge credit vs getting the best for your money and patronizing someone who really wants to give you the best experience AND the best stone for the money. This is a LOT of money.

You will get great service (you should anyway, esp with this budget) from any jeweler, one of the ones we'd recommend away from the big brands, or from one of the great brands. Just about any jeweler will clean and check the prongs for you, and sizing and repairs normally cost regardless--so I'd make sure in writing that they really will keep up on the service regarding sizing and prongs for life. My experience, at least with Tiffany, is that they only do that for a year, then you pay for it. The cost is not terrible, but it's certainly not free or "included with purchase" of the ring. And regardless of who you buy from, you still need insurance on this item to cover loss, theft or damage. Their "guarantee" is not an insurance policy.

 

[CuteTeacup]

Re: Help needed to choose between these 2+carat round diamon

Hey, thank you both so much!

With regards to the cheat sheet, so the diamond will still remain as white but with more fire, right? Or will the white tone down a little and instead produce more different colors / fire?

I have asked the SAs to get a diamond of these specs. Tiffany probably will have the easiest time finding a diamond within these specs simply because of the amount of inventory they had. It was really hard for HW and Graff to get rings #4 and #5.

So should I just settle for say #4 (esp if they give a nice discount), or strictly go with either #5 or have them find something within specs of the cheat sheet, and then try to negotiate for the discount again? HW wouldn't budge much on the price, as compared to Graff or Tiffany. Then again, the discounted amount doesn't really matter, since the final selling price is still pretty close for these 3 brands, which means Graff just had a higher initial markup in the MSRP.

The problem with the Tiffany credit is that it is a Tiffany credit. Other than an engagement ring, I don't see myself spending that much money at their stores. I may purchase wedding bands and some small and cheaper jewelry pieces, but they still don't add up anywhere close to the amount of credit I have. For fanciful looking necklaces and jewelry pieces, Cartier, HW and Graff appeal to me more than Tiffany does.

Graff said service is free for life. I believe HW said the same. Tiffany I cannot remember at all. Then again, there's probably a lot of exclusions in the T&Cs, so it's not going to be that useful other than the occasional cleaning.

I do plan to purchase insurance, and that's really pricey from what I was quoted so far. What's the typical amount for each 10k covered?

Thanks!